1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 149 Old 07-11-2011, 10:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GregK View Post

I don't think Deep Color and 48/60fps is a good "apples to apples" comparison.

Deep Color, as I understand its implementation in HDMI 1.3, is totally imcompatible with older HDMI versions. So if a content provider were to use Deep Color, they would still need to provide another version for older players and/or displays. Plus Deep Color (for many ..not all) would only be subtle upgrade at best.

3-D, as used in HDMI 1.4, worked on avoiding this issue, by being backward compatible with HDMI 1.3 displays, and should be able to deliver a 2-D image to HDMI 1.3 2-D displays instead of simply going black or showing a distorted image.

Higher frame rates, especiallly 48fps, could be coded so legacy gear would only see 24fps. But those with newer gear would see the advantages of higher temporal rates, which is also far more noticable than what any Deep Color improvements can offer.

I disagree I think it's a perfect comparison. The entire industry uses Deep Color. It's an industry standard. They just don't give it to consumers. And so far, the entire industry is NOT using 1080 X 48 or 60 FPS. Few if any are using higher frame rates.
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post #32 of 149 Old 07-11-2011, 08:58 PM
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Again, not all content comes merely from movies and TV. Games are a big thing, and if the next MS and Sony consoles (Nintendo is only just now catching up to / slightly passing the current gen with the Wii U) aren't capable of supporting (with enough graphics horsepower to actually use as opposed to 1080 resolutions now) 1080P/60 3D I would be disappointed.

Joe Six Pack may not connect his PC to his HDTV, but many many PC gamers can and do. Sometimes I play at 1600x1200 on my ye olde ViewSonic P-series 19" CRT monitor, sometimes I play at 1920x1080 on my 3D capable DLP (though I haven't gotten around to playing with iz3D and such to play in 3D from the PC ... I have played in 3D from the Xbox). I just have to change the input select on my HDMI switcher, and load the game up on the other "monitor" that is now attached to my computer. (USB keyboard / mouse and extension / hub + Monoprice HDMI extender PID 8008 ftw - I was using a 35' cable before but it started flaking out, too much getting moved around with hooking / unhooking PC)

Are PC gamers enough to justify the creation of such a standard? No, not really, not if that is all there would ever be. But it wouldn't be. Consoles would pick it up, and even if that alone isn't good enough, it's good enough with both of them to wedge the door open wide enough for it to eventually become mainstream. Consumer 3D recording devices are only just now becoming available to the masses (i.e. 3D camera phones), it's only a matter of time before people take having a 3D 60fps camera phone for granted. And at that point, even if mainstream movies still aren't shot in higher framerates, there will still be a call for support of higher framerates for all the non movie / TV stuff out there.
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post #33 of 149 Old 07-12-2011, 07:17 PM
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I agree 100%. There will be an increasing interest in higher frame rates. I *do* think it will be a slow transition, but having (higher than 24fps) titles like Avatar II and the Hobbit in the works will certainly help educate those to it's advantages. As you noted, gamers already know these advantages.

Unlike the consumer non-backward compatible Deep Color as implemented with HDMI 1.3, 48fps & 60fps can be made to be backward compatible.

24fps, while certainly having it's "charm", in many respects is an antiquated temporal rate. But there will always be those who will prefer it. Or .. in the case of this given thread, "don't think it will happen".
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post #34 of 149 Old 07-12-2011, 08:00 PM
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I think 1080p60fps 3D capable sets will become the norm, whether everyone uses that capability or not.

I think it's quite simple. There will be a Playstation 4. The Playstation 3, though it struggles a bit, can already do 720p 3D. Sony will not limit it's new console to 720p 3D. It's weaksauce, people will ask why not 1080? Same with 1080p at 24fps, for games, that's weak. "It's (next) next generation and it still can't do proper 1080p?" Sony doesn't play that game. They always push the technological envelope with their consoles (and portables, for that matter).

Besides the fact that Sony also makes TVs and will make them to support it's consoles, if the PS4 supports this new HDMI, other TV manufacturers will have to support it too.
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post #35 of 149 Old 07-12-2011, 08:01 PM
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I read several years ago the gaming industry rakes in more money than Hollywood, so i guess thats part of it if that was correct. The only reason i bought a 3D Tv was for gaming. I look at it like a surround monitor setup, without the frames in the way and with a higher vertical field of view, which is trendily underrated at the moment in my opinion. I found out only after buying it that it will only do 720p. That was a bummer.

Nvidia wont even support 1080p30 3d, which it should since Tv's already do 1080p60 in 2d. Im awaiting a answer from Tridef as to whether their drivers support 1080p30. I'm hoping this will be a good solution, since i think the update rate may be higher, reducing mouse lag. Obviously theres a bit of flicker @24hz and 30hz, which i somehow only really notice in light scenes.


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post #36 of 149 Old 07-12-2011, 10:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK View Post

I agree 100%. There will be an increasing interest in higher frame rates. I *do* think it will be a slow transition, but having (higher than 24fps) titles like Avatar II and the Hobbit in the works will certainly help educate those to it's advantages. As you noted, gamers already know these advantages.

Unlike the consumer non-backward compatible Deep Color as implemented with HDMI 1.3, 48fps & 60fps can be made to be backward compatible.

24fps, while certainly having it's "charm", in many respects is an antiquated temporal rate. But there will always be those who will prefer it. Or .. in the case of this given thread, "don't think it will happen".

Why couldn't Deep Color be made backwards compatible? You think it's impossible to go from 10 or 12 bit per color back to 8 bit?
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post #37 of 149 Old 07-13-2011, 09:25 AM
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It could have been, but from what I've read previously of the HDMI 1.3 specs, it currently is not backward compatible with older versions of HDMI. That's why there is *zero* consumer Deep Color content via HDMI. Of course, the current HDMI Deep Color specs could still be modified in the future.
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post #38 of 149 Old 07-13-2011, 11:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK View Post
It could have been, but from what I've read previously of the HDMI 1.3 specs, it currently is not backward compatible with older versions of HDMI. That's why there is *zero* consumer Deep Color content via HDMI. Of course, the current HDMI Deep Color specs could still be modified in the future.
Guess you read wrong:

http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/articles...ipment_how.php
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post #39 of 149 Old 07-13-2011, 11:43 AM
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Yeah - partly: It is Bluray that currently doesn't support DeepColor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Bl...HD_DVD_players
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post #40 of 149 Old 07-18-2011, 05:27 AM
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Honestly I don't know what all the debate is about..
1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.
If the tech is released, Bluray may follow suit with higher framerates, but really thats a secondary consideration, the tech will need to come to displays FIRST.

It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.
Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.
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post #41 of 149 Old 07-18-2011, 12:25 PM
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We will probably have to wait for the next release of the US ATSC specs from the FCC which should include 1080p/120 as a supported video content protocol for3D which may use the HDMI 1.4 1080p/48 packed buffer format as a base and then there may be a corresponding update to the Blu-Ray 3D spec.
There is no problem with the today's 3D TVs/displays being able to display the 1080p/60 content per eye since they do that today when the they convert the convert the 1080p/48 packed buffer content to 1080p/60 per eye content using 3:2 pulldown.
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post #42 of 149 Old 07-18-2011, 04:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Honestly I don't know what all the debate is about..
1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.
If the tech is released, Bluray may follow suit with higher framerates, but really thats a secondary consideration, the tech will need to come to displays FIRST.

It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.
Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.

What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.

What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?
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post #43 of 149 Old 07-19-2011, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.

What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?

It seems like the next logical step. Both Sony and Panasonic are hot competitors in the camcorder business. Sony displays already support 60i.
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post #44 of 149 Old 07-19-2011, 06:16 PM
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Having a line of "Gamer Certified!" Tvs makes sense, having special processors to eliminate input lag while allowing for special features like local dimming, etc. That way gamers could spend the extra cash needed for those features and you wouldn't have to pass the costs on to everyone. While there at it, lets make menus come up instantly, modes switch instantly, the cursor/selector scroll instantly, the Tv turn on instantly, change channels instantly. My Intel I7 CPU has a video card IN IT, that can run the graphically demanding game Crysis for ^@#! sake and has over billion transistors in it. Cost: $290. My video card, which can run Crysis in its sleep while playing the violin: $270.

A video card creates and draws the game scene 60 times a second, CREATES! The video processor just takes info from the disk and displays it on the screen.

Please Tv manufactures, get your unrevolutionary, piddlywink processor with its AMAZING 100 extra mhz of raw, pure power out quickly and im sure the Intel 3.4GHZ I7 2600k under my desk will do its best not to laugh when it arrives.


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post #45 of 149 Old 07-22-2011, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.

What organization was going to adopt the specifications and promote it?

Who cares? As I said, this feature is of interest to gamers, bluray is non-factor.

..but if you must, Bluray triple or quadruple layer disks would need to be used. No biggie.
We went from 700mb CDs to ~9GB DVDs, that's an increase of over 12X. Bluray came out with 50GB, an increase of less than 6X
Quadruple layer disks should be used for Studio Films with less compression. Full 60p framepacking would be easy with similiar compression to what we have now.
Heck with 128GB of space maybe 1080p24 2D films could even be lossless transfers.
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post #46 of 149 Old 07-22-2011, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by obveron View Post

1080p60 frampacking is a feature that interests GAMERS. Thats all the justification needed for the production and installation of higher bandwidth HDMI chips.

Agreed, I think that for CE companies that alone would be sufficient reason to add 1080p60 Frame Packing to 3D HDMI products.


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Originally Posted by obveron View Post

It's just too bad that this wasn't done upfront with the release of HDMI 1.4. Nothing kills the adoption of new tech (3DTV) more than the incremental and staggered release of important features.
Personally I still don't own a 3DTV, I have the cash, and I LOVE stereo 3D. I can't commit to buying something that lacks a feature I want, when I know the feature could be right around the corner. HDMI really dropped the ball by not making 1080p60 Framepacking mandatory, and providing faster chips 2 years ago for all 3DTVs.

The HDMI organization is mostly composed of CE companies and would not have made 1080p60 Frame Packing mandatory for 3D HDMI products unless it could have been done cheaply. As such though their decision to make it optional has caused problems it could have been based on the cost of the technology at that time.

On the other hand I think that the lack of a universal standard for 3D active shutter glasses was a mistake that could have been easily resolved by now had the CE companies made a serious effort at it. Though so called "universal" 3D active shutter glasses are sold they aren't exactly "universal" since CE companies use different color tints on their 3D active shutter glasses. I think that eventually a universal standard for 3D active shutter glasses will happen but right now the CEA is still working on it.


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What was going to be the storage media used for 1080x60P frame packing? It wasn't going to be Blu-ray.

Do you think that Blu-ray will be the last physical video format released? Personally I think that eventually another physical video format will be released with greater capacity and using a more efficient video codec (such as HEVC).
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post #47 of 149 Old 07-23-2011, 02:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Who cares? As I said, this feature is of interest to gamers, bluray is non-factor.

..but if you must, Bluray triple or quadruple layer disks would need to be used. No biggie.
We went from 700mb CDs to ~9GB DVDs, that's an increase of over 12X. Bluray came out with 50GB, an increase of less than 6X
Quadruple layer disks should be used for Studio Films with less compression. Full 60p framepacking would be easy with similiar compression to what we have now.
Heck with 128GB of space maybe 1080p24 2D films could even be lossless transfers.

Are those 3 and four layer BDs ROMs or are they R/REs?
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post #48 of 149 Old 07-23-2011, 02:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Do you think that Blu-ray will be the last physical video format released? Personally I think that eventually another physical video format will be released with greater capacity and using a more efficient video codec (such as HEVC).

Sony Admits: Blu-Ray Is the Last Optical Disc Format.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage...sc_Format.html

What physical media do you know of that will hold 200 to 300 GBs and can be replicated 6 a minute at a cost of less then a dollar each?

And if you increase the size of the storage capacity, you don't need to increase the efficiency of the compression codec. We already have Motion JPEG 2000
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post #49 of 149 Old 07-24-2011, 01:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony Admits: Blu-Ray Is the Last Optical Disc Format.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/storage...sc_Format.html

Lee, does this mean that you agree with the speculation from the Sony product strategy manager for home video marketing in Europe who made those comments back in 2008? Would you agree with the other Sony spokesman in that article that talked about "prototypes for 400GB discs" and how that would allow Blu-ray to store 4K video?


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What physical media do you know of that will hold 200 to 300 GBs and can be replicated 6 a minute at a cost of less then a dollar each?

There was a reason I used the word "eventually" and on the specific issue of optical discs I would mention that research does continue both on multi-layer discs and ultraviolet solid state lasers.


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And if you increase the size of the storage capacity, you don't need to increase the efficiency of the compression codec. We already have Motion JPEG 2000

Well even with greater capacity having increased efficiency allows you to do more with that capacity. For a consumer physical video format that is important.
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post #50 of 149 Old 07-24-2011, 06:39 AM
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Are those 3 and four layer BDs ROMs or are they R/REs?

They could make them ROMS, nothing is stopping them. Yes I realize they're only available as R/REs right now, but they COULD print them. People would need new BD players. I think the extra layers could contain the extra frames so that people with old players could still get 24P. I'm sure MVC could allow such division of optional frames.
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post #51 of 149 Old 07-24-2011, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post
Lee, does this mean that you agree with the speculation from the Sony product strategy manager for home video marketing in Europe who made those comments back in 2008? Would you agree with the other Sony spokesman in that article that talked about "prototypes for 400GB discs" and how that would allow Blu-ray to store 4K video?
4K video? What will that be, the next Laserdisc? Some super niche format for a couple of million consumers. You don't seem to understand the law of diminishing returns Richard.

We have been looking at large storage optical disc prototypes for over 10 years. So where are they? 400GB? That's a joke in comparison to other technologies. 1 TB - that has to be the minimum. Enough of the baby steps. No evolutionary change - has to be revolutionary or it will never be widely adopted.

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There was a reason I used the word "eventually" and on the specific issue of optical discs I would mention that research does continue both on multi-layer discs and ultraviolet solid state lasers.
What? 20 years from now? I guess that falls under the heading of "eventually" doesn't it.

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Well even with greater capacity having increased efficiency allows you to do more with that capacity. For a consumer physical video format that is important.
Don't forget the emphasis is on; "consumer" which has many limitations attached to it.
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post #52 of 149 Old 07-24-2011, 03:20 PM
 
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They could make them ROMS, nothing is stopping them. Yes I realize they're only available as R/REs right now, but they COULD print them. People would need new BD players. I think the extra layers could contain the extra frames so that people with old players could still get 24P. I'm sure MVC could allow such division of optional frames.
No issues at all huh? What is the reject rate for quad layer optical discs? Can't answer that can you because there has never been a quad layer ROM disc replicated at high speed has there?

You also fail to understand that the more layers you add, the more error correction you will need as the read error rate increases geometrically. We are talking about consumer machines here, not precision professional grade equipment.
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post #53 of 149 Old 07-26-2011, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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4K video? What will that be, the next Laserdisc? Some super niche format for a couple of million consumers.

I asked about 4K video since it was in the article that you posted and to see how much of that article you agreed with. For the next physical video format I personally would like to see support for higher frame rates, increased color depth, and less/no color subsampling.


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Don't forget the emphasis is on; "consumer" which has many limitations attached to it.

Well the definition of what is considered "consumer" changes with time.
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post #54 of 149 Old 07-26-2011, 01:53 PM
 
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I asked about 4K video since it was in the article that you posted and to see how much of that article you agreed with. For the next physical video format I personally would like to see support for higher frame rates, increased color depth, and less/no color subsampling.

Well the definition of what is considered "consumer" changes with time.

You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.
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post #55 of 149 Old 07-26-2011, 09:06 PM
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You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.

Hmm.. For decades, they said the same thing about 3-D.

Richard is correct: As far as "professional grade" formats go, that definition can be somewhat subjective and fleeting in nature. I'll take a brand new transfer delivered on consumer Bluray over a transfer on a professional grade format that was made just ten years ago.
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post #56 of 149 Old 07-26-2011, 09:18 PM
 
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Hmm.. For decades, they said the same thing about 3-D.

That is subjective. Yes we have 1080P per eye, no we do not have a color depth greater than 8bit per color

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Richard is correct: As far as "professional grade" formats go, that definition can be somewhat subjective and fleeting in nature. I'll take a brand new transfer delivered on consumer Bluray over a transfer on a professional grade format that was made just ten years ago.

That would be 2001 right? You really think Blu-ray looks better than Panasonic's D-5HD?
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post #57 of 149 Old 07-27-2011, 09:09 AM
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That is subjective. Yes we have 1080P per eye, no we do not have a color depth greater than 8bit per color :
Ha ha! Subjective indeed! Which validates what Richard and I said.
It seems your sole critera for "professional" is color depth.


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That would be 2001 right? You really think Blu-ray looks better than Panasonic's D-5HD?
Yes, which commonly back then was likely 1080i, along with not having other transfer advancements in the last ten years.

Everybody else "gets it", Lee. I'll pop back in from time to time, but won't be feeding the troll.
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post #58 of 149 Old 07-27-2011, 02:07 PM
 
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Ha ha! Subjective indeed! Which validates what Richard and I said.
It seems your sole critera for "professional" is color depth.

Seems you don't care about color banding or hue accuracy. I am surprised. Just a pixel counter huh?

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Yes, which commonly back then was likely 1080i, along with not having other transfer advancements in the last ten years.

Everybody else "gets it", Lee. I'll pop back in from time to time, but won't be feeding the troll.

Don't know much about D-5HD do you?
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post #59 of 149 Old 07-27-2011, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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You honestly believe the indusrty will give consumers a professional grade video format? They haven't yet.

Ateme has shown that encoding at 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr takes no more video bandwidth than encoding at 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr. Here is a technical paper and an article from Ateme explaining why. Here is a technical paper from Ericsson to support this as well. I believe that one day consumer video will move beyond 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr.
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post #60 of 149 Old 07-27-2011, 06:49 PM
 
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Ateme has shown that encoding at 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr takes no more video bandwidth than encoding at 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr. Here is a technical paper and an article from Ateme explaining why. Here is a technical paper from Ericsson to support this as well. I believe that one day consumer video will move beyond 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr.

That they can do it is not the question. Will they do it - THAT is the question. Same as this:

GE Shows 500GB Holographic Disc

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/07/ge-announces-ho.php
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