1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012 - AVS Forum

AVS Forum > 3D Central > 3D Tech Talk > 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012

3D Tech Talk

Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Here is some basic information and a short FAQ with information current as of September 22, 2012.

There are several "frame compatible" 3D methods such as "side-by-side" and "top-and-bottom". These 3D methods are simple to send and store since they fit the video for both eyes into a single video frame but that means they only offer half resolution per eye 3D video. The highest quality 3D video is full resolution per eye 3D video. There are several different terms used for full resolution per eye 3D video at 1080p60 with the HDMI organization using the term "1080p60 Frame Packing", AMD using the term "1080p60 Stereoscopic 3D", and through most of the thread I use the term "1080p60 per eye 3D video".

When the HDMI 1.4a specification was released on March 4, 2010 it required that 3D HDMI devices support mandatory 3D formats (such as 1080p24) which can be seen in this HDMI press release. 1080p60 Frame Packing was optional and it wasn't until May 2011 that a company announced 300 MHz HDMI chips capable of it. The technical details can be found in this thread and in this post on 297 MHz bandwidth. As such products that support 1080p60 Frame Packing (or 2160p30) require HDMI chips that are capable of 297 MHz bandwidth. 300 MHz HDMI chips are also called 3 GHz HDMI chips. Both numbers are technically correct since it depends on whether you measure the clock rate or the raw data rate.

The first consumer product capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing was the AMD HD Radeon 7970 which was released on January 9, 2012. This was followed by several additional AMD cards so that on March 19, 2012 there were a total of six AMD cards ranging from $109 to $549 MSRP that were capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. On March 22, 2012 the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 was released which based on current information is most likely capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing. Several additional NVIDIA cards have been released since than and had their HDMI output tested at 4K resolution which proves that they use 300 MHz HDMI chips.


FAQ

Should I be concerned about 1080p60 per eye 3D video?

A HTPC can be capable of it today and for game consoles this will likely be an issue within 3 years. For major Hollywood movies though it depends if future movies are made at 60 fps 3D.


Are there any Hollywood movies that would benefit from 1080p60 Frame Packing?

No, and that even applies to Hollywood movies currently in production since The Hobbit movies are being made at 48 fps 3D. James Cameron has said that he personally prefers 60 fps over 48 fps but even if he uses 60 fps 3D for Avatar 2 it is years away from being released.


Will AV receivers from 2011 or earlier support 1080p60 Frame Packing?

No, and only AV receivers that are capable of input, switching, and output of a 1080p60 Frame Packing signal will be able to support it. The only exception to this might be modular AV receivers that use add-in modules for HDMI switching.


Do current High Speed HDMI cables work with 1080p60 Frame Packing?

Yes, and High Speed HDMI cables are tested at 340 MHz which is even higher than the 297 MHz bandwidth needed for 1080p60 Frame Packing.


What consumer products are currently capable of 1080p60 Frame Packing?

  • AMD Radeon HD 7700 series
  • AMD Radeon HD 7700M series
  • AMD Radeon HD 7800 series
  • AMD Radeon HD 7800M series
  • AMD Radeon HD 7900 series
  • AMD Radeon HD 7900M series
  • NVIDIA GeForce GT 640 (likely based on 4K support)
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 series (likely based on 4K support)
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 series (likely based on 4K support)
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 670 (likely based on 4K support)
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 (likely based on 4K support)
  • NVIDIA GeForce GTX 690 (likely based on 4K support)
  • Yamaha RX-V373 (likely based on 4K support)
  • Yamaha RX-V473 (likely based on 4K support)
  • Yamaha RX-V573 (likely based on 4K support)


Original Post

Silicon Image recently announced in a press release that HDMI chips with a bandwidth of 300 MHz are currently sampling (which means that the mass production of them will begin later this year). As explained in this thread to send a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal requires a bandwidth of 297 MHz. As such CE products that support 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI 1.4a will be possible in 2012.


Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Here is a link to one of the 300 MHz HDMI 1.4a chips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?

The only current source would be a HTPC. Within 3 years though I think it is likely that 1080p60 per eye video will be possible on one or more future game consoles. As for 3D TV channels I wouldn't even guess at when it might happen but I did find a press release from ESPN that shows that they are considering it.
GregK's Avatar GregK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What 3D source is going to use 1080x60P per eye?

Aside from games, Avatar II will be shot in 48 or 60 fps. The Hobbit will be in 48fps. However, current Bluray max specs are still limted to 1080 24p, or 1080 60i.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK View Post

Aside from games, Avatar II will be shot in 48 or 60 fps. The Hobbit will be in 48fps. However, current Bluray max specs are still limted to 1080 24p, or 1080 60i.

You think the BDA is going to change the specs of 3D BD for a couple of specially made 3D movies? If it was an industry change I would agree, but it isn't.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Here is a link to one of the 300 MHz HDMI 1.4a chips.

The only current source would be a HTPC. Within 3 years though I think it is likely that 1080p60 per eye video will be possible on one or more future game consoles. As for 3D TV channels I wouldn't even guess at when it might happen but I did find a press release from ESPN that shows that they are considering it.

HTPC - OK. I can see that.

I don't see 1080x60P 3D in that presser. I do see 1080x60P HD and 3D though. I know a while ago, they did an upgrade that allows them to work with 1080x60P HD.

3D by "OTA" is Frame Compatible - the bandwidth of a single HD channel. Who is going to give up the required bandwidth to use Frame Packing at 1080x60P. DirecTV is already using MEPG4.
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I don't see 1080x60P 3D in that presser. I do see 1080x60P HD and 3D though.

Here are some statements from the the ESPN press release:

Quote:


As both ESPN and ESPN-2 transition to all MPEG-4 HD over the next several years, Motorola's system will distribute full resolution HD programming while simultaneously providing legacy MPEG-2 HD and SD services to ESPN affiliate operators, all without requiring additional satellite bandwidth.
...
As part of the migration, all ESPN and ESPN-2 programming will be processed with Motorola's SE-6601A high definition MPEG-4 AVC encoder capable of 1080p60 and 3D encoding.
...
At the downlink sites, the content will be received and processed with Motorola's DSR-6100, which receives MPEG-4 720p60 or 1080p60 video (including 3D), and then transcodes to MPEG-2 HD, SD and/or analog NTSC to support whatever video infrastructure the service provider has in place.

Whether the system can handle full resolution 3D video though would depend on whether the statement on "full resolution HD programming" applies to 3D video.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Here are some statements from the the ESPN press release:

Whether the system can handle full resolution 3D video though would depend on whether the statement on "full resolution HD programming" applies to 3D video.

1080p / 60 fps production confirmed for ESPN's new L.A. studio

May 5th 2009

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/05/05/10...ew-l-a-studio/
GregK's Avatar GregK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

You think the BDA is going to change the specs of 3D BD for a couple of specially made 3D movies? If it was an industry change I would agree, but it isn't.

Lee- I merely mentioned that upcoming "over 24p" sources that will be high profile titles are being made, in responce to your original question. And then noted that the current Bluray spec only allows for 1080 at 24p or 60i, for those who might be interested.

If there's a demand to see these in full 1080p 3D HD with "above 24p" frame rates, I'm sure someone will devise a delivery and/or download format to do so, .."whatever" it may be.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK View Post

Lee- I merely mentioned that upcoming "over 24p" sources that will be high profile titles are being made, in responce to your original question. And then noted that the current Bluray spec only allows for 1080 at 24p or 60i, for those who might be interested.

If there's a demand to see these in full 1080p 3D HD with "above 24p" frame rates, I'm sure someone will devise a delivery and/or download format to do so, .."whatever" it may be.

Sure - like the IMAX footage on The Dark Knight BD
DanielJoy's Avatar DanielJoy
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its about time. these current HDMI 1.4 sets are such a disappointment to me. now if they could eliminate the crosstalk to at least DLP levels- then we would have something worth buying.

im keeping my fingers crossed that i see a DLP projector or RP TV with these chips. Maybe one of those new LED laser DLP projector at 1080p60 3d! that would be amazing!
Exposed's Avatar Exposed
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So for those of us that already purchased expensive 3DTV's, we'd need to buy new expensive 3DTV's?
obveron's Avatar obveron
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Yes, and likely new AVRs too... again. Don't worry the tech will need to exist for at least a few years before consumers will get their hands on it.
BlackShark's Avatar BlackShark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exposed View Post

So for those of us that already purchased expensive 3DTV's, we'd need to buy new expensive 3DTV's?

Yes of course !
A new TV, a new BluRay "3D plus" certified player that can handle MVC at 60fps, and also a new AVR that can handle the extra bandwidth.

Concerning backwards compatibility, MVC is not designed just for stereoscopic content, it is designed to hold any number of multi-views, so I believe MVC is flexible enough to allow both the 24fps movie and the missing frames to coexist on the same disc, there will be 3 dependent views instead of one with current BluRay 3D :
-main Left @ 24fps,
-dependent Right @ 24fps (just like current BluRay 3D)
-dependent extra frames Left @ 24fps
-dependent extra frames Right @ 24fps

So if you read such a disc in your current player on your current TV, the BlRay disc association should be able to standardize it in such a way that it's backwards compatible with 24fps limited equipment.
DanielJoy's Avatar DanielJoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

Yes of course !
A new TV, a new BluRay "3D plus" certified player that can handle MVC at 60fps, and also a new AVR that can handle the extra bandwidth.

Concerning backwards compatibility, MVC is not designed just for stereoscopic content, it is designed to hold any number of multi-views, so I believe MVC is flexible enough to allow both the 24fps movie and the missing frames to coexist on the same disc, there will be 3 dependent views instead of one with current BluRay 3D :
-main Left @ 24fps,
-dependent Right @ 24fps (just like current BluRay 3D)
-dependent extra frames Left @ 24fps
-dependent extra frames Right @ 24fps

So if you read such a disc in your current player on your current TV, the BlRay disc association should be able to standardize it in such a way that it's backwards compatible with 24fps limited equipment.

this makes me glad i sent my panny back.....
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Yes, and likely new AVRs too... again.

Unfortunately no current CE product can handle 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Don't worry the tech will need to exist for at least a few years before consumers will get their hands on it.

Silicon Image usually makes HDMI chips in very large numbers so I think it is likely that there will be many CE products released next year that will support a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Unfortunately no current CE product can handle 1080p60 per eye 3D over HDMI.

Silicon Image usually makes HDMI chips in very large numbers so I think it is likely that there will be many CE products released next year that will support a 1080p60 per eye 3D signal.

Isn't there an AVR that upscales HD to 4K now available? You see any consumer 4K TV sets available yet? Coming soon?

I just do not believe the industry is going to abandon 24 FPS industry wide. Nor do I see HD content originators or providers using 1080x60P for HD let alone for 3D.
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Isn't there an AVR that upscales HD to 4K now available? You see any consumer 4K TV sets available yet? Coming soon?

Well several years ago when CE companies released the first 1080p TVs none of them supported 1080p60 over HDMI. The next year (after faster HDMI chips were released that supported 1080p60) the majority of 1080p TVs released supported 1080p60. I don't know if history will repeat itself but I feel confident enough to make what I would consider a safe prediction (considering that this year Sony released 16 1080p 3D TV models). I predict that in 2012 there will be over 30 1080p 3D TV models released that will both accept and display a 1080p60 per eye 3D video signal sent over HDMI. Lee, would you disagree with that prediction?
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Well several years ago when CE companies released the first 1080p TVs none of them supported 1080p60 over HDMI. The next year (after faster HDMI chips were released that supported 1080p60) the majority of 1080p TVs released supported 1080p60. I don't know if history will repeat itself but I feel confident enough to make what I would consider a safe prediction (considering that this year Sony released 16 1080p 3D TV models). I predict that in 2012 there will be over 30 1080p 3D TV models released that will both accept and display a 1080p60 per eye 3D video signal sent over HDMI. Lee, would you disagree with that prediction?

No - but what good is it without the content?

How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.
mrjktcvs's Avatar mrjktcvs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

No - but what good is it without the content?

How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.

In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.
William's Avatar William
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.

Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.

BD will likely be replaced by streaming Nexflix/Apple TV. Also as for 60p 3D, fact: CONTEN IS KING. Until/if there is ever a library of content what is the pont of having a 60p 3D home format?

You are promoting a classic "cart before the horse".
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjktcvs View Post

In the software industry, they have extra columns in tables and extra bits tacked on to data labeled "reserved for future use". Blu-ray as we know it will eventually be replaced by something more enhanced. Most people will update their source components more often than their displays with cost being a major factor in such decisions.

With the exception of the Mits and Samsung 3D ready DLP RPTVs as far as 3DTVs, that didn't happen did it?
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

No - but what good is it without the content?

I can understand that given the current situation those who are only interested in movies and TV programming might not consider this to be an issue. For those interested in HTPCs though this is an issue today. In a few years I think this will likely be an issue with future game console(s) and some consumer 3D video cameras as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

How many HDTVs claim Deep Color yet to this day there is no consumer HD content that is Deep Color encoded.

I believe that 1080p60 support on 1080p displays is a better analogy for 1080p60 per eye 3D support on 1080p 3D TVs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.

Well 10 years ago (with the exception of Japan and the very expensive MUSE Laserdisc format) there was no HD pre-recorded video content. As such 10 years ago for the vast majority of people DVD was the best pre-recorded video content that was possible. Today there are several video streaming services that stream 720p video. We likely won't see 1080p60 per eye 3D video streaming anytime soon but based on past history does anyone think that it won't eventually happen?
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I can understand that given the current situation those who are only interested in movies and TV programming might not consider this to be an issue. For those interested in HTPCs though this is an issue today. In a few years I think this will likely be an issue with future game console(s) and some consumer 3D video cameras as well.

And how big is that market?

Quote:


I believe that 1080p60 support on 1080p displays is a better analogy for 1080p60 per eye 3D support on 1080p 3D TVs.

Why? There is no 1080x60P per eye 3D content. Nor is there 1080x60P native HD content either. Don't mistake some upgrade that ESPN did and use speculation that consumers will be getting 1080x60P. The lions share of consumer viewing is still done by CBL/SAT/TELCO/OTA (if you doubt this just Google the Nielsen Three Screen report). You see any of them giving up the bandwidth to make available 1080x60P? I don't. So that means another higher level of MPEG encoding which means none of the equipment in consumers hands is compatible.

Quote:


We likely won't see 1080p60 per eye 3D video streaming anytime soon but based on past history does anyone think that it won't eventually happen?

Yes - me - I don't think it's going to happen. Just like I don't think they will ever give us Deep Color or High Dynamic Range HD.
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Gaming would benefit - even though no consoles would support it any time soon, it would be trivial for PCs to do it.
mrjktcvs's Avatar mrjktcvs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Possibly but unfortunately doubtful. The video industry will likely mirror the audio industry. The CD was never replaced by a higher standard and now the majority of music is highly compressed MP3 download format.

BD will likely be replaced by streaming Nexflix/Apple TV. Also as for 60p 3D, fact: CONTEN IS KING. Until/if there is ever a library of content what is the pont of having a 60p 3D home format?

You are promoting a classic "cart before the horse".


There is Netflix now, yet lots of people buy BD for various reasons, such as not wanting to wait until Netflix can actually deliver movies that have been released for home viewing well before then. Not to mention that their streaming library is disappointing, to say the least.

BD will be replaced because from everything I've read, 4k-2k is in our future. Disk-based media will be superior to downloads in some technical aspect for a long time to come, and there is a market for that.
Richard Paul's Avatar Richard Paul
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

And how big is that market?

I would start out by mentioning that it doesn't have to be an issue for the majority of customers. As long as the additional cost of adding that feature is small enough than even if that feature is an issue with only 10% of potential customers than I think the CE company will want their product to support that feature. Now with that being said I don't know how big of a market it will in the next few years based on the three sources I mentioned. The game console market though is fairly large and in a 2007 Nielsen survey game consoles were in over 40% of US households.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why? There is no 1080x60P per eye 3D content. Nor is there 1080x60P native HD content either.

I can think of a few sources of 1080p60 native HD content that exist today such as HTPCs, two game consoles (though to be fair only a tiny fraction of games are rendered at 1080p60), and several consumer video cameras (such as the Sony DSC-TX100V). Though it hasn't been used in any products yet there is even a smartphone CMOS sensor (the OmniVision OV12825) that is capable of recording at 1080p60. And OmniVision is no small company since it has shipped over a billion CMOS sensors and as a recent example had a CMOS sensor used in the iPhone 4.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Yes - me - I don't think it's going to happen. Just like I don't think they will ever give us Deep Color or High Dynamic Range HD.

Never is a very long time.
Lee Stewart's Avatar Lee Stewart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I would start out by mentioning that it doesn't have to be an issue for the majority of customers. As long as the additional cost of adding that feature is small enough than even if that feature is an issue with only 10% of potential customers than I think the CE company will want their product to support that feature. Now with that being said I don't know how big of a market it will in the next few years based on the three sources I mentioned. The game console market though is fairly large and in a 2007 Nielsen survey game consoles were in over 40% of US households.


I can think of a few sources of 1080p60 native HD content that exist today such as HTPCs, two game consoles (though to be fair only a tiny fraction of games are rendered at 1080p60), and several consumer video cameras (such as the Sony DSC-TX100V). Though it hasn't been used in any products yet there is even a smartphone CMOS sensor (the OmniVision OV12825) that is capable of recording at 1080p60. And OmniVision is no small company since it has shipped over a billion CMOS sensors and as a recent example had a CMOS sensor used in the iPhone 4.


Never is a very long time.

LOL - the myth that Joe Sixpack is going to attach his computer to his television. How many years have we heard about this going to happen?

I guess we should cheer and wax lyrical about a camcorder or two that actually can shoot in XV Color!

You have a weak grasp on the difference between marketing and technology. The Asian TV CEMs have been selling Unicorns for decades. There are so many examples it's pathetic. What's one more.
Augerhandle's Avatar Augerhandle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL - the myth that Joe Sixpack is going to attach his computer to his television. How many years have we heard about this going to happen? ... [snip]

I don't have numbers on how pervasive it is nationwide (and I'm not Joe), but myself and three of my children have been connected for quite some time. Netflix, YouTube, and media files from our computers play quite often on our TVs and AVRs. It isn't perfect, but it's convenient.
GregK's Avatar GregK
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I don't think Deep Color and 48/60fps is a good "apples to apples" comparison.

Deep Color, as I understand its implementation in HDMI 1.3, is totally imcompatible with older HDMI versions. So if a content provider were to use Deep Color, they would still need to provide another version for older players and/or displays. Plus Deep Color (for many ..not all) would only be subtle upgrade at best.

3-D, as used in HDMI 1.4, worked on avoiding this issue, by being backward compatible with HDMI 1.3 displays, and should be able to deliver a 2-D image to HDMI 1.3 2-D displays instead of simply going black or showing a distorted image.

Higher frame rates, especiallly 48fps, could be coded so legacy gear would only see 24fps. But those with newer gear would see the advantages of higher temporal rates, which is also far more noticable than what any Deep Color improvements can offer.

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