3DTVs and PC gaming - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 06-19-2011, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Gamers usually want 60fps. 24fps or even 30fps is not enough.

On a 3DTV over HDMI, there are 3 choices to what format to output retain 60 fps: 720p framepacked (HDMI 1.4 only), Side-by-Side, or checkerboard.

720p framepacked is terrible on 1080p displays. The vertical and horizontal must be stretched by a non integer factor. Meaning pixels don't line up. Scalers can do a pretty good job for video, but when it comes to PC display, non integer scaling is nasty. You get an end result worse than native 720p.

Checkerboard and side by side are different. They scale perfectly into 1080p. They are truly the next best thing to getting full 1080p60 per eye.

Many new TVs no longer support checkerboard, leaving Side-by-Side as the most versatile and compatible format. The xbox 360 uses SbS format with it's HDMI 1.3 output. PS3 upgraded to HDMI 1.4 for framepacking. A moot point as the consoles can't render much more than 720p at the best of times.


The landscape for PC gaming on 3DTVs is complicated.
Tridef and IZ3D support Side by Side, which works well with all 3DTVs. However Tridef and IZ3D are not always perfect drivers. Game support is an issue for some.
Nvidia offers 3D drivers. They work very well with most games. If you buy the nvidia vision glasses and emitter, you can get checkerboard output on DVI/HDMI, there is no Side by Side mode. Which is unfortunate, since many new TVs don't support checkerboard.

Also, it's a shame you need to buy the expensive Nvidia glasses and emitter if you're using a 3DTV.
That's where 3DTV Play comes in. It lets you use the Nvidia 3D drivers without the glasses and emitter, but it offers only 720p framepacking. If you'd like to pressure Nvidia to release Side by Side for 3DTV Play, post here: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=203266



So there's no great solution for PC gaming on 3DTVs as of now. I recommend using Tridef and IZ3D in either side by side or checkerboard.

How do you play PC games on your 3DTV? What is your opinion? Post your thoughts in this thread.
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post #2 of 29 Old 06-19-2011, 01:20 PM
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I tried, specifically bought a Sony EX720 for 3d Gaming on my PC.

Its a no go. Works great with a PS3 plugged, as it gets a 3d signal, but anything from my PC and well, fresh out of luck.

I also wonder why theres no checkerboard support. There is no logical reason to remove it, but they have anyways.
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post #3 of 29 Old 06-19-2011, 11:21 PM
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I use an iZ3D monitor and use 1.13 drivers on my older PC. It's passive dual sandwiched lcds and works well enough, but ghosting is inherent in the design. It's a dirt cheap way of 3D if you can still find them at clearance prices. On my HTPC I use 3DVision with the emitter and glasses. I've tested it with an older 3D DLP HDTV (checkerboard) and 1.3 DLP Projector (frame sequential.) For sbs and tb formats I use a aver3d capture card. To me it's pretty foolproof way, especially with the newer Nvidia drivers, and I've had very good luck with it, although I've seen others have not so much. In my opinion it's worth the extra price of the kit.
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post #4 of 29 Old 06-20-2011, 02:30 AM
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HDTVs are only mediocre for gaming and even worse for 3D gaming. DLP 3D projector is best for 3D gaming with a PC and it is cheaper too.
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post #5 of 29 Old 06-20-2011, 04:07 AM
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My LED DLP Samsung HL61A750 HDTV works pretty well for 3D gaming.. but thats with cherckboard 60p format, not some silly 720p60 or 1080p24 HDMI 1.4 3D
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post #6 of 29 Old 06-20-2011, 05:52 AM
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My LED DLP HLT6178s is awesome for gaming. Same - 60p checkerboard. I find it better than watching movies in 3D on my set. MotorStorm in 3D is hard to top!
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post #7 of 29 Old 06-20-2011, 05:40 PM
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Yep, checkerboard, Mitsubishi DLP.

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post #8 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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What drivers are you guys happy with? Tridef, IZ3D, Nvidia or all of the above?
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post #9 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 11:53 AM
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iZ3D and Tridef are still offering free trials I think. It's the only way to know for yourself. Some people complain about the silliest of things without even taking the time to learn the software, so I don't like giving recommendations.
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post #10 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 03:01 PM
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Not is you do not have the 3D vision glasses from nVidia you need a newer graphics card than what you can get away with when using the glasses.

My dual 9800GTX+ are fine for the active glasses but not enough for using with polarized glasses such as come with the Vizio e3d320vx

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3dtv-pl...uirements.html

134" of HD picture !!
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post #11 of 29 Old 06-21-2011, 04:12 PM
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I have an issue. I have a Mitsubishi 82738 dlp tv. (firmware 12.08). I finally got 3dtv play to work, I have 3d pictures nut no sound output. I have the nvidia 580gtx card and its hooked up directly to the tv. The resoultion was set at 3d 720p/60 with audio enabled. It plays sound in 2d resolution nut when I switch to 3d, no sound even though the player is still on. Anybody have that issue as well.
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post #12 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 10:30 AM
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i have a HDMI 1.3 checkerboard mitsubishi DLP and a 720p DLP projector. the projector is my favorite. the image quality is the same as checkerboard- but my computer does not have to render 1080p like it does with checkerboard- so i can max out the image quality settings. you get better image quality at higher frame rates with 720p, with only a 12% loss of pixels compaired to checkerboard. dont get me wrong- i do like my checkerboard DLP- but it is far from 1080p and you can see the checkerboard interlacing.

my next purchase is the new LED Laser DLP projectors with much better brightness.

I have also tried a panasonic vt20 and a 24 inch 1080p computer monitor. both had ghosting issues and were sold or sent back.

no ghosting on the DLP with max depth.

Nvidia drivers have far better performance than iz3d on my SLI system.

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post #13 of 29 Old 06-22-2011, 10:34 AM
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some samsungs can be hacked to run checkerboard. lots of info on the nvidia board. but you still have to live with the ghosting that all these new tv's have.

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post #14 of 29 Old 06-25-2011, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielJoy View Post

some samsungs can be hacked to run checkerboard. lots of info on the nvidia board. but you still have to live with the ghosting that all these new tv's have.

I bought the Panny VT30 and after some tweaking the crosstalk is pretty much gone from console gaming, and PQ is gorgeous. But with current gen consoles getting so old PC gaming is looking like a much more attractive option for the hardcore gamer, especially after seeing Battlefield 3 running on PC, holy crap my jaw hit the floor. I wanted to build a monster PC to be viewed on my Panny big screen, but 3d 1080p only being able to be viewed @24FPS is horrible setback.
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post #15 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 07:38 AM
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So if I bought, say the LCD-LED Sony Bravia KDL-55HX800 to use with my computer for gaming and movies (I have a gtx580 graphics card), I'd be forced to stick with a low frame rate?

I've been trying to research the best LCD-LED 3d TV to buy for PC gaming and am realizing it's a lot more difficult to set up and use than I realized.

I'm still confused if I need to buy Nvidia's 3d kit or if I should get the Sony kit. Does Nvidia's also play movies??
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post #16 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSexyNinja View Post

So if I bought, say the LCD-LED Sony Bravia KDL-55HX800 to use with my computer for gaming and movies (I have a gtx580 graphics card), I'd be forced to stick with a low frame rate?

I've been trying to research the best LCD-LED 3d TV to buy for PC gaming and am realizing it's a lot more difficult to set up and use than I realized.

I'm still confused if I need to buy Nvidia's 3d kit or if I should get the Sony kit. Does Nvidia's also play movies??

I've been PC 3D gaming on my own built HTPC (gtx480/Win 7 64U) as well as playing BR 3D movies on my Mits 73837 display.
Gaming in s3d (Nvidia), the fame rate is typically cut in half but your 580 should be powerful enough to handle all games with ease despite the taxing in fps.
If you get Cyberlink U version 10 or higher you should be able to play all BR 3D, providing you have a BR Rom player as a minimum as well as your PC meets all requirements.
You must get Nvidia kit to game in 3D, not Sony kit.

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post #17 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopho View Post

I've been PC 3D gaming on my own built HTPC (gtx480/Win 7 64U) as well as playing BR 3D movies on my Mits 73837 display.
Gaming in s3d (Nvidia), the fame rate is typically cut in half but your 580 should be powerful enough to handle all games with ease despite the taxing in fps.
If you get Cyberlink U version 10 or higher you should be able to play all BR 3D, providing you have a BR Rom player as a minimum as well as your PC meets all requirements.
You must get Nvidia kit to game in 3D, not Sony kit.

Alright, great. Glad to know the Nvidia kit will work with movies if I have the right software (and BR player). I was actually considering getting the 73837 or the Sony. Is a DLP preferred? I know the 3D TVs are capped at like 30fps or something.
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post #18 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 09:32 AM - Thread Starter
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720P at 60 fps is the best you can do with Nvidia 3DTV play (no kit required). If your TV supports checkerboard, you can do that at 60fps but you need to buy the Nvidia vision kit.

Tridef 3d and IZ3D also support checkerboard and SbS at 60fps.

Gaming format breakdown:
1080p60 (doesn't exist on 3DTV) > 1080p60 SbS = 1080p60 checkerboard > 720p60 > 1080p30 > 1080p24
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post #19 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

720P at 60 fps is the best you can do with Nvidia 3DTV play (no kit required). If your TV supports checkerboard, you can do that at 60fps but you need to buy the Nvidia vision kit.

Tridef 3d and IZ3D also support checkerboard and SbS at 60fps.

Gaming format breakdown:
1080p60 (doesn't exist on 3DTV) > 1080p60 SbS = 1080p60 checkerboard > 720p60 > 1080p30 > 1080p24

How do I determine if the TV can do checkerboard? Is it better than SbS? Thank you for including the format breakdown, that's very helpful!

I assume with a BR player and the right software, the movies should display full 3d quality?
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post #20 of 29 Old 06-29-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

720P at 60 fps is the best you can do with Nvidia 3DTV play (no kit required). If your TV supports checkerboard, you can do that at 60fps but you need to buy the Nvidia vision kit.

Tridef 3d and IZ3D also support checkerboard and SbS at 60fps.

Gaming format breakdown:
1080p60 (doesn't exist on 3DTV) > 1080p60 SbS = 1080p60 checkerboard > 720p60 > 1080p30 > 1080p24

Its not so simple!

it has been my personal experience that gaming resolution matters less than crosstalk issues. ive had the true 1080p 120hrz monitor and a Panasonic vt20, i sold them because of the crosstalk, input lag, high price tag and kept the good old DLP 1080p checkerboard and then upgraded to a 720p DLP 3d projector.

Also, your breakdown is subjective. why would i choose 720p 3d over 1080p checkerboard (DLP or sammy LED) when i can have display i want? I have two 480's in sli with a physX card. i have both checkerboard DLP and 720p60 projector right now and i never touch the checkerboard tv- its collecting dust. 65" vs 130" screen- the 130" has far more immersion for games and movies- no matter what the resolution is. checkerboard is great, i used it for years and its what i would run right now if i did not have the room for a projector, but there is little difference at all in image quality between 720p with lots of AA vs checkerboard where half the 1080p pixels are shared.

i think people get obsessed with resolution and lose track of other important features. why run 1080p3d with any amount of ghosting (which is all LED and Plasma- despite the hype you might read)? whats the point of high resolution ghosts? i would much rather have perfect 3d image quality with zero ghosting at max depth even if its only 720 or checkerboard on the DLP. plus there is no input lag. DLP is fast! It was my experience that plasma was highly overrated for PC gaming. im sure its ok for consul players where depth and convergence are not adjustable, but not so for PC gamers who like to tweak there systems for optimal performance, image quality and playability. hook a High end HTPC to a Panasonic Plasma and crank up the 3d depth- you will be sorry- i once was.

trust me, save you bucks until real 1080p DLP 120hrz projectors/tvs are made that are consumer products. go with cheapo DLP in the mean time. you can score a used 73" RP DLP for 5-600 $ where i live, and it will blow away any 2011 3d tv for 3d gaming. Perhaps all the non DLP displays will eventually get the crosstalk issues figured out.

720p also plays games much smoother and faster which matters in 3d computer games like metro 2033. a single 580 in 3d will choke in 1080p with max settings. my two 480's get choked by this game in 1080p (the physX card helps 5 or ten FPS)- i had to lower the AA settings to get it to play smooth. sure it plays but its much better at 720p with max image quality with no slowdowns in FPS on a 130" screen.

also you left out the ultimate gaming resolution- imagine three projectors hooked up in 3d vision surround! this is much more resolution than a single 1080p 3d display.

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post #21 of 29 Old 06-30-2011, 12:03 AM
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Remember, the most important features to look for in any TV in order, are size (buy the biggest you can afford), contrast (not dynamic contrast), black level, color accuracy, and then resolution.

People should shop with that in mind.

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post #22 of 29 Old 06-30-2011, 12:07 PM
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@DanielJoy wow, thanks for that insight. I will consider it when I buy a TV.
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post #23 of 29 Old 07-05-2011, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Danieljoy my "breakdown" was referring to what display resolution to output for gaming on a 1080p television in regard to best scaling. I wasn't making any claims to how to choose a TV or what resolution performs best with whatever game, or to pick TV or monitor or projector based on resolution.

ssninja was saying something about being capped at 30fps which isn't true so I was breaking down the choices of output formats. obviously the performance of a game is more important. and none of what I said had anything to do with picking a display to buy.

..but in regards to gaming performance... 1080p SBS or checkerboard is half the resolution of 1080p so rendering shouldn't be much more taxing than 720p.


In my experience 720p scaled into 1080p looks considerably worse than SbS or checkerboard scaled into 1080p. If game performance isn't degraded I'd consider those formats over 720p when gaming on a 1080p display. If you go back to my first post, you'll see I'm concerned with output formats and driver choices. SCALING is the topic at hand. Most 3DTVs are 1080p so I was bringing up what formats look best on those displays. This is where my frustration lies with Nvidia's 3DTV play and its lack of SbS or checkerboard options.

If you have a native 720p display, then obviously that's a different story and 720p framepacking is the best choice by far (no scaling).
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post #24 of 29 Old 07-05-2011, 09:05 PM
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I researched the topic more and looked up the mod provided by roller over on the nvidia board. It allows 2010 samsung models (and others) to game via Nvidia Vision (vs the 3DTV play, which is inferior). They must support the checkerboard format. I'll be testing this out next week. From what I've read, its currently THE best option for PC gaming. It also allows you to for the TV to accept a PC mode (which isn't otherwise activated on the machine). I definitely recommend reading up on it over in the forums. It's been a great help to me!
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post #25 of 29 Old 04-30-2012, 11:27 AM
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How is the Optoma HD33 3D 1080p DLP projector for gaming? If I want to use 720p60, does it scale OK?
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post #26 of 29 Old 05-01-2012, 07:45 AM
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Yes, 720p 2D is nothing like 720p 3D! You would never guess that it is "only" 720p in 3D. I believe the AMD Checkerboard 3D driver is still free at IZ3D.
In 3D you get more video information per second to your brain in Checkerboard and 720p than 1080p 24hz on an HDTV because of the faster framerate in checkerboard and 720p.
DLP is something like 2000x faster than LCD so much better for gaming. (response time)
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post #27 of 29 Old 05-08-2012, 09:06 AM
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So has any one with an led tv got NVIDIA 3DTV Play to work and if so what is your experience with it and how did you set it up?
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post #28 of 29 Old 05-08-2012, 06:07 PM
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Love it on a 46" Sony NX711, which is first gen with relatively low brightness and high amounts of crosstalk. Prefer it in 3D over my Dell 3007wfp for gaming, and for webbrowsing and movies. The extra fov, if your sitting closer is priceless. 2011 and 2012 LED's are vastly superior to the 2010s, fyi. For example, the 2012 panasonic DT50 and Sony HX750 have ruffly the same pixel response time as the Asus 27" 3D Vision 2 monitor, but i think even brighter.
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post #29 of 29 Old 06-29-2012, 11:11 AM
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Hiya DLP owners,

I was wondering if any of you are still using Nvidia Vision 3D on a DLP. I have a Samsung HL67A750, but I think issues would be the same with pre-2010 (non-HDMI 1.4) Mits DLPs as well.

I just got this set up on my TV last week (I've had the Sammy for a while now). I'm using a GTX670, and Nivida 3d Vision (not 2) kit. HDMI3 renamed to PC and all that. DVI/HDMI adapter to avoid the 3DTV play automatic downgrading to 720p. The 3D output looks fantastic, way better than from my PS3, except for a red overlay message near the bottom of the screen that says "Vesa emitter cable disconnected or stereoscopic 3D mode on TV not turned on". It's two lines of big red letters, floating above the 3D of the image, really annoying because if you accidentally focus on it, you lose the 3D effect and see the double images. Anyway, looking at forums it appears this is a relatively new occurence with the latest few drivers. I just wanted to check with you if it's an issue you've encountered with your Mits, or if you had already figured out a workaround.

Also, if I do plug the Vesa emitter cable into the back of my TV, then the message disappears, the image still appears to be in 3D (double images) but the glasses won't sync to give 3D, you just see the double image with glasses on or off. I'm using DLP-link glasses. I didn't think plugging in an emitter disabled the DLP-link, so I'm not sure why it loses the image, driver side issue or DLP-link issue...

The issue occurs in the test (although it didn't occur the first time) and in the 3 games I've tried so far (BF3, LFD2, and NFS-MW, which all look pretty fantastic!).

Thanks,
Mounta1n

Enjoying BF4 on the PS4, bugs and all.
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