Official Omega 3D passive projection system thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

on contrast: its far over rated. $80,000 cinema projectors with 2k 3 chip imagers make 4000:1 or so contrast and look great.

I wouldn't go that far, commercial cinemas have a lot of ambient light that limits the effective contrast you can "produce", doesn't mean it's not a significant limiting factor in a fully light controlled HT.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #272 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I wouldn't go that far, commercial cinemas have a lot of ambient light that limits the effective contrast you can "produce", doesn't mean it's not a significant limiting factor in a fully light controlled HT.

well maybe 4000:1 is just ok and youre correct cinema has some ambient light to deal with to some degree but the human eye cannot see the contrasting images much beyond 10,000:1 ratios. if a white part of the screen image is %100 and a black image in the same shot is 10,000 times less, that is %0.01 , much more contrast than that is only theoretical. i build spectral instruments and made one for testing my 3d system durring development and getting it to measure the extiction ratio of my 3d system was a real challenge at %0.1 . now i admit our eyes are a lot better than instraments but when i hear 50,000:1 and higher contrast ratios i know it cant be measured but some people "see" a differance. it a preception issue some times as well.

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post #273 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 10:38 AM
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Ah,
So a lot of this quoted 20-50-100-300,000:1 contrast ratios is a lot of BS by the company's.
Now why doesn't that surprise me.
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post #274 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imbloodyskint View Post

Ah,
So a lot of this quoted 20-50-100-300,000:1 contrast ratios is a lot of BS by the company's.
Now why doesn't that surprise me.

I wouldn't quite say that, but you have to take specifications with the appropriate grain of salt. For example JVC projectors do actually hit their rated specs, even those in excess of 100,000:1. That's why it's always a good idea to check out objective reviews to see what reality is.

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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

well maybe 4000:1 is just ok and youre correct cinema has some ambient light to deal with to some degree but the human eye cannot see the contrasting images much beyond 10,000:1 ratios. if a white part of the screen image is %100 and a black image in the same shot is 10,000 times less, that is %0.01 , much more contrast than that is only theoretical.

Rather than go into this in this thread I'll direct you to an older thread about contrast:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1071092/poll-how-much-on-off-contrast-is-enough#post_14764571

I could summarize by saying based on the NASA data, in a home theater something on the order of 10 million:1 would be usable/visible in a home theater.
Quote:
i build spectral instruments and made one for testing my 3d system durring development and getting it to measure the extiction ratio of my 3d system was a real challenge at %0.1 . now i admit our eyes are a lot better than instraments but when i hear 50,000:1 and higher contrast ratios i know it cant be measured but some people "see" a differance. it a preception issue some times as well.

It's definitely tricky to measure, but it's possible, the easiest way I know of is to simply reduce the size of the screen you measure off of, or to measure directly from the projector. This increases the minimum measured light, which is usually the harder part. There's also options like measuring in steps, if you measure 100 IRE:50IRE and then 50IRE:0IRE you can multiply them and get the total contrast.

But this is all way OT for this thread.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #275 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 05:44 PM
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Well,
Found a great thread showing the working of the LG CF3D.

Shows the insides of it and explains how it works.

And what trick they used to merge the 2 images into one single image before it leaves the projector.

(New working link)
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/lg-cf3d/cf3d_test.htm
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post #276 of 631 Old 06-20-2013, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

I wouldn't quite say that, but you have to take specifications with the appropriate grain of salt. For example JVC projectors do actually hit their rated specs, even those in excess of 100,000:1. That's why it's always a good idea to check out objective reviews to see what reality is.
Rather than go into this in this thread I'll direct you to an older thread about contrast:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1071092/poll-how-much-on-off-contrast-is-enough#post_14764571

I could summarize by saying based on the NASA data, in a home theater something on the order of 10 million:1 would be usable/visible in a home theater.
It's definitely tricky to measure, but it's possible, the easiest way I know of is to simply reduce the size of the screen you measure off of, or to measure directly from the projector. This increases the minimum measured light, which is usually the harder part. There's also options like measuring in steps, if you measure 100 IRE:50IRE and then 50IRE:0IRE you can multiply them and get the total contrast.

But this is all way OT for this thread.

i will agree that there is a lot of technical methods and theory behind image contrast levels that far exceeds a thread like this. measureing light right at the output of a projector would give higher levels of contrast measure. when i was testing cinema 3d systems we did a similar setup to test crosstalk and gamut of all the major 3d systems in order to best them all with our 3d filters.

I build prototype optics for NASA, JPL and others including having built part of the Hubble and i have no doubt about their accuracy on test data but it still dosnt change the fact that in optical terms human vision is limited to seeing light levels down to optical density 3 or 4 and the best spectroradiometers dont do much better. thats 0,1% to 0.01% 10 million to one would be 0.00001% but i will not argue those that know more than I when it comes to image contrast. just offering my experiance. its a good debate.

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post #277 of 631 Old 06-21-2013, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

I build prototype optics for NASA, JPL and others including having built part of the Hubble and i have no doubt about their accuracy on test data but it still dosnt change the fact that in optical terms human vision is limited to seeing light levels down to optical density 3 or 4 and the best spectroradiometers dont do much better. thats 0,1% to 0.01% 10 million to one would be 0.00001% but i will not argue those that know more than I when it comes to image contrast. just offering my experiance. its a good debate.

FWIW, here's the reference from the other thread:

http://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section04.htm#_4.2_VISION

The threshold of vision is 10^-6 millilamberts. If my math is right 1 milliLambert is about .9 ftL, essentially 1 ftL. So if we go with DCI recommended 16ftL for peak white, 16/10^-6 = 16,000,000:1. Of course that's the absolute threshold, which means it could be minutes for your eyes to adjust to that. You could go with something a bit more reasonable (for adjustment over short time periods) like white paper in starlight, which for anyone who's been outside away from a city on a night without a moon knows is pretty dark, that's 10^-4, but that's still 160,000:1. Black level at 4000:1 is more like white paper in moonlight, which you can almost read off of.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #278 of 631 Old 06-24-2013, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

FWIW, here's the reference from the other thread:

http://msis.jsc.nasa.gov/sections/section04.htm#_4.2_VISION

The threshold of vision is 10^-6 millilamberts. If my math is right 1 milliLambert is about .9 ftL, essentially 1 ftL. So if we go with DCI recommended 16ftL for peak white, 16/10^-6 = 16,000,000:1. Of course that's the absolute threshold, which means it could be minutes for your eyes to adjust to that. You could go with something a bit more reasonable (for adjustment over short time periods) like white paper in starlight, which for anyone who's been outside away from a city on a night without a moon knows is pretty dark, that's 10^-4, but that's still 160,000:1. Black level at 4000:1 is more like white paper in moonlight, which you can almost read off of.




Your math may be correct but nobody in the real world has the time or energy to figure out what you are talking about.
A white paper in starlight?
16,000,000:1
Are you Superman?or a cat?
Could I blind you if I turned on a flashlight after your eyes have adjusted to the white paper in the moonlight?
When it comes right down to it black is black and anything brighter than that is headed towards white. you cannot project black, In the end viewing experience is what we all want.
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post #279 of 631 Old 06-24-2013, 07:14 AM
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OK guys.
Lets try get back to what the thread was about before I asked about contrast. Lets stick to Omega 3D and passive 3D in general..
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post #280 of 631 Old 06-24-2013, 07:16 AM
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When it comes right down to it black is black and anything brighter than that is headed towards white. you cannot project black, In the end viewing experience is what we all want.

Point is you're exactly right with that, black is the absence of perceived light, anything above that isn't black. Not to pick on motorman, but people make comments like "...the human eye cannot see the contrasting images much beyond 10,000:1 ratios" when there's solid evidence to the contrary. If you want "black" from a projector in an HT with reference white level, you need on the order of 10 million:1 sequential contrast.

But I think we've derailed this thread plenty.

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #281 of 631 Old 06-24-2013, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Point is you're exactly right with that, black is the absence of perceived light, anything above that isn't black. Not to pick on motorman, but people make comments like "...the human eye cannot see the contrasting images much beyond 10,000:1 ratios" when there's solid evidence to the contrary. If you want "black" from a projector in an HT with reference white level, you need on the order of 10 million:1 sequential contrast.

But I think we've derailed this thread plenty.

I have a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing 10million : 1 contrast.
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post #282 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 03:58 AM
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I am very interested in the Omega 3D kit with the Geobox G-501. However, I currently own a JVC X75 projector which biggest plus is its native contrast. Because of the high native contrast (I measured 18520:1) I get VERY good black levels in my dedicated pitch black home theater room. I know that I will never gert this native contrast with a DLP projector (not even with a SIM2) but I was hoping to find a DLP projector that fits the Omega 3D kit that has at least 500:1 native contrast (measured! So NOT specified by the manufacturer!!!). I ve been told that I should look for a used Sharp XV-Z20000 or Maratz DLPer but it is really not so easy to find two of them. SO which DLP projector has a very good native contrast that fit with the Omega 3D kit?
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post #283 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

I am very interested in the Omega 3D kit with the Geobox G-501. However, I currently own a JVC X75 projector which biggest plus is its native contrast. Because of the high native contrast (I measured 18520:1) I get VERY good black levels in my dedicated pitch black home theater room. I know that I will never gert this native contrast with a DLP projector (not even with a SIM2) but I was hoping to find a DLP projector that fits the Omega 3D kit that has at least 500:1 native contrast (measured! So NOT specified by the manufacturer!!!). I ve been told that I should look for a used Sharp XV-Z20000 or Maratz DLPer but it is really not so easy to find two of them. SO which DLP projector has a very good native contrast that fit with the Omega 3D kit?

I think Im correct in stating that (motorman45 please correct me if im wrong) OMEGA 3D do different kits for lcd and other types of projectors, not just dlp. so good chance you could run 2 x x35/x55 or even x75's. smile.gif
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post #284 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 04:45 AM
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There is a kit for lcd but this will give more incorrect colors and I am a isf certified calibration person so will not like that smile.gif
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post #285 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

I am very interested in the Omega 3D kit with the Geobox G-501. However, I currently own a JVC X75 projector which biggest plus is its native contrast. Because of the high native contrast (I measured 18520:1) I get VERY good black levels in my dedicated pitch black home theater room. I know that I will never gert this native contrast with a DLP projector (not even with a SIM2) but I was hoping to find a DLP projector that fits the Omega 3D kit that has at least 500:1 native contrast (measured! So NOT specified by the manufacturer!!!). I ve been told that I should look for a used Sharp XV-Z20000 or Maratz DLPer but it is really not so easy to find two of them. SO which DLP projector has a very good native contrast that fit with the Omega 3D kit?

Lots of the "good" DLPs hit well over 1000:1 native contrast. I think my Planar 8150 is around 3000:1 (15000:1 dynamic).

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #286 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 05:13 AM
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Someone knows the Sharp XV-Z18000?
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post #287 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by imbloodyskint View Post

I think Im correct in stating that (motorman45 please correct me if im wrong) OMEGA 3D do different kits for lcd and other types of projectors, not just dlp. so good chance you could run 2 x x35/x55 or even x75's. smile.gif

we do make an LCD version but Sander is correct in the the color balance will still not be as good as with a good DLP projector. i have some users that have the LCD large filters and the new Sony 4k home projectors and they think it works wonderful with good color balance. now one customer with the JVC units did not like the balance. so its hard to say. i have seen and tested the sony 4k cinema unit with my lcd filters and it is very good. it may be the way they filter the color bands

the sharp looks like a very good unit

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post #288 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Lots of the "good" DLPs hit well over 1000:1 native contrast. I think my Planar 8150 is around 3000:1 (15000:1 dynamic).
The 'problem' is that going from eg. 1500:1 native contrast to 4000:1 native contrast makes a very noticable difference in black level in het pitch black room. The difference from eg. 5000:1 native (Sony HW50) to 18000:1 native (JVC X35) is really not that big in real life. So in my opinion approx. 4000:1 native is the minimum requirement for a decent black level.
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post #289 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

we do make an LCD version but Sander is correct in the the color balance will still not be as good as with a good DLP projector. i have some users that have the LCD large filters and the new Sony 4k home projectors and they think it works wonderful with good color balance. now one customer with the JVC units did not like the balance. so its hard to say. i have seen and tested the sony 4k cinema unit with my lcd filters and it is very good. it may be the way they filter the color bands

the sharp looks like a very good unit
This makes my re-think my decision to go for 2 dlp's. You think the Sony VW1000 colors with the LCD kit are as good as a dlp stack with the DLP kit? If so, it MIGHT be interesting to test the LCD kit with a Sony HW50 stack because (I think) the lamp technique in the HW50 is about the same as that from the VW1000
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post #290 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 10:34 AM
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Well, I'm gonna give 2 Benq w1070's ago. Would loved 2 W7000's but would cost me more then double.
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post #291 of 631 Old 06-26-2013, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

The 'problem' is that going from eg. 1500:1 native contrast to 4000:1 native contrast makes a very noticable difference in black level in het pitch black room. The difference from eg. 5000:1 native (Sony HW50) to 18000:1 native (JVC X35) is really not that big in real life. So in my opinion approx. 4000:1 native is the minimum requirement for a decent black level.

You said you wanted one with at least 500:1 wink.gif

See what an anamorphoscopic lens can do, see movies the way they were meant to be seen
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post #292 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 12:05 AM
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Well, I'm gonna give 2 Benq w1070's ago. Would loved 2 W7000's but would cost me more then double.
Why the W7000s? You know they have a very bad native contrast (650:1!!!!) and use the very outdated Darkchip2?
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post #293 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 12:22 AM
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You said you wanted one with at least 500:1 wink.gif
No, I said 5000:1 smile.gif

But serious, something around 5000:1 is ok.

Now search for one that does that smile.gifsmile.gif
I did see the Optoma HD83 but it does not get raving reviews. Some reviews here say that the HD33 is even better.
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post #294 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 02:56 AM
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Why the W7000s? You know they have a very bad native contrast (650:1!!!!) and use the very outdated Darkchip2?

WOW!!! 650:1 Native. Didnt know it was that bad.

Anyway lets get back to omega 3d.

Anyone else bought a kit recently??
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post #295 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 03:05 AM
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Still thinking about it but just found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRSeg1Ajk3Y

Want to look into this some more

EDIT:
I found out that it is a system made by Infitec. I called them (Germany) and they told me that their system works perfect with both DLP, LCD and LCOS. Maybe this is the solution to use when someone wants to use LCOS dual-stack? No silverscreen is needed just like the Panavision solution.
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post #296 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 04:41 AM
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Omega 3d kit just arrived. So now waiting for delivery of the 2 w1070.
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post #297 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Still thinking about it but just found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRSeg1Ajk3Y

Want to look into this some more

EDIT:
I found out that it is a system made by Infitec. I called them (Germany) and they told me that their system works perfect with both DLP, LCD and LCOS. Maybe this is the solution to use when someone wants to use LCOS dual-stack? No silverscreen is needed just like the Panavision solution.





Is anyone able to get a price on their bundle?
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post #298 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 01:31 PM
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I thought Infitec and Omega filters are quasi the same - it's based on simmilar principle and the color output has simmilar caveats...?
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post #299 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 04:15 PM
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Heres a pic shot through the lens of omega glasses compared to my other optoma active glasses from my hd33 kit.
(Taken on my nexus 4 on "HDR Setting")





Comparing the pictures to what I see myself, the omega lenses actually look to me around a few shades lighter.

Got my w1070's coming 2mora, so will see if can figure out how to use the stereoscopic player.
Now,
I will be projecting onto a basic dull grey wall for now because I havent got setup yet, so no proper screen because the room has just started to get done and the walls were how shall I say "abit wavey(sp)" so had to resand them and had to order more paint to redo them again.
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post #300 of 631 Old 06-27-2013, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought Infitec and Omega filters are quasi the same - it's based on simmilar principle and the color output has simmilar caveats...?

the omega 3d and infitec could not be more different from each other in the way they work. the only similarity is that they both use optical filter tech and are chromatic and not polorized. infitec splits light into two sets of RGB bands. the omega system splits the visible spectrum into ten bands and is not based on RGB bands. the disadvantage infitec has is the color balance between eyes is vastly different requiring a digital color processor to alter the colors of each eyes image on the fly based on a calibration of the given system. when dolby ( uses infitec fitlers) impliments this system tehy lease for sell you a $20,000 color processor server. that is the only way it looks right on a screen. and to boot they do not get the level of extiction, the % efficency of the omega system.

just read the thread on here somewhere on skilled builders trying to use the dolby filters before we came and offered our kits. all the trouble of adjusting colors to get a decent image with little success. now i will admit they were trying to use the eye filter as a projection filter, and this is not how its intended to work but even with their projection filter that has not been offered to the public till now ( and at what cost ? ) you will still suffer great color imbalance you cannot correct. peole think our lcd kit on a jvc looks less than great in eye to eye color balance. they will be pissed at how much the infitec costs and how poor it works, unless you get a color server, and not one that just adjusts the rgb gains per eye, it is a total recalc of each color in an image.

if i was able to use such a color processor our optics could not be rivaled by any system. we contemplated this when developing it with panavision but as we tweaked the design for the best native color and energy balance we found it was perfect on 3dlp cinema and on home theater dlp units is is nearly as good.

im honored infitec would copy me with offering a kit and a bundle with the same demultiplexer i sell, and make a youtube video too lol... imatation is what ?

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