Official Omega 3D passive projection system thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 631 Old 09-24-2012, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post

Are you talking the Phlatlight based ones? I'm guessing the "not good" color you're talking about is the oversaturated gamut (which is easily tamed with a CMS) that puts the peak output outside of the passbands of your filters?

im not sure on the actual source but the build quality of the only projectors ive seen using a white LED and a color LCD pannel is far from great and not HD. maybe CMS could help but there are other issues with this type of unit.

there wouldnt be any issue or peak energy being outside the omega filter system area as all of the bands used cover the full range of spectrum all projectors use. any projector that makes a decent image would work with our filters but the best quality of color balance in when there is a broad spectral output from the projector. the filters will work with any LED based unit, just not ideal. i should have made that more clear before.

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post #92 of 631 Old 10-02-2012, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Geobox g-501 all in one demultiplexor with the omega 3d optics

so here is our large kit finally in a bundle with the VNS GeoBox G-501. its got 12 pairs of glasses and the larger filter set.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Large-Passive-3D-Viewing-Kit-for-use-with-Dual-Projectors-with-12-pr-of-glasses-/160893912706?pt=Receivers_Tuners&hash=item2576064682

we wil be offering the small filter kit as well with 12 pairs for a little less $$ soon

here is a short video of me adjusting the image and showing the menu some , more detailed video soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0OWvLBOYZM

im working on a some good photos of the dual projector setup with this box shwoing 2D filters in place and both projectors on to demonstrate the alighment ability this box offers.
hopefully soon ill get pics up as im also working on an Xbox with kinnect and 3D setup using this box as well to show its gaming ability.

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post #93 of 631 Old 10-03-2012, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi. so i ran some tests and using the alignment ability of the Geobox 501 i can say that the 2D looked very good. here is a couple of photos i took with both projectors on and the omega filters in place. 2 optoma HD20's on a matt white screen about 140" image. same left eye image from both units. its hard to photo the image but this should show how well the Geobox gets the image aligned. also there was a fair amount of stray or ambient light so black levels are not as good as than can be at night in the space i use

8051714362_b5a73d6d24_b.jpg

8051713298_405327dd46_b.jpg

8051753547_e255faf46f_b.jpg

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post #94 of 631 Old 10-11-2012, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I finnaly got around to making a new video of our latest fun with an Xbox 360 and a Kinnect taking advantage of the Geobox;s alignment ability and doing some fun immersive 3D gaming on a ~12' screen. im standing about 10' from the 12' image from the Xbox, the demultiplexr works perfectly with the Xbox to split the image. i did not see any noticeable lag as i played TinTin in passive 3D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLqkZ45AW-c

in the gameplay you can see my friend hold one eyes filter in front of the camera and you can see how clear the image is, no ghosting and very bright for two 1500 lumen 1080p DLP projectors on about a 12' image. this was a lot of fun to film.

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post #95 of 631 Old 10-12-2012, 11:44 AM
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I already have the filters and glasses. Can I purchase the VNS Geobox G-501 seperately? Cost?
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post #96 of 631 Old 10-12-2012, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trgraphics View Post

I already have the filters and glasses. Can I purchase the VNS Geobox G-501 seperately? Cost?

Yes we will list it by itself next week. i will have to verify the price alone.

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post #97 of 631 Old 11-03-2012, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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ive been told i can sell the Geobox G-501 for $1599 if anyone is interseted. the image alignemnt tool is well worth the price alone aside from beign a really good demultiplexer. it will do 1080p 60hz per eye as well. we will be dropping the price of the bundles we offered and i am building some rack mounted systems complete or without projectors

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post #98 of 631 Old 11-25-2012, 10:43 AM
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has anyone tried with 2 different projectors ?
i just ask course i have panasonic ax-200 and i was wondering if it would be more wise to buy the second
beamer newer model like pt-ae4000 (fullHD) and run it 720p with the ax-2000. course most of the movies
you watch it 2D.
And one has to do color correction anyway, to get the left and right matching in colors.
And color correction is much bigger with LCD, than DLP ? (motoman)
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post #99 of 631 Old 11-25-2012, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaan Janne View Post

has anyone tried with 2 different projectors ?
i just ask course i have panasonic ax-200 and i was wondering if it would be more wise to buy the second
beamer newer model like pt-ae4000 (fullHD) and run it 720p with the ax-2000. course most of the movies
you watch it 2D.
And one has to do color correction anyway, to get the left and right matching in colors.
And color correction is much bigger with LCD, than DLP ? (motoman)

i have tried it with two different projectors, one dlp and the other lcd, the trick was getting the images the same size on the screen and then playing with the filters by trying L and R on each and then adjusting the colors some. not as good as with two good dlp projectors but works. the two lcd units you listed should work. the color correction is not perfect but i have several customers using the panasonic pt and like it very much. the color differance between eyes is more notacable than with a good pair of dlp's but when adjusted well and watching with both eyes open it looks amazing. just read some of the comments in this thread of end users and look at what they are using. also see the link in my signature here for a page that explains the color issues and shows some technical details on the filters

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post #100 of 631 Old 11-28-2012, 12:36 PM
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I bought the system from eBay 2 weeks ago, and they are amazing. I have Optoma HD 20 and HD200x mounted on the ceiling one on top of the other. I just can't make them aligned 100%, just probably 90%. Are you successful aligning them perfectly? And what is your settings for each projector to work best on these filters?
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post #101 of 631 Old 11-29-2012, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhorse72 View Post

I bought the system from eBay 2 weeks ago, and they are amazing. I have Optoma HD 20 and HD200x mounted on the ceiling one on top of the other. I just can't make them aligned 100%, just probably 90%. Are you successful aligning them perfectly? And what is your settings for each projector to work best on these filters?

im glad it looks as good as it should ! the only way i hae gotten perfect alignment is with the geobox and its image warp ability. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLqkZ45AW-c

watch this video i made setting up one of my systems for xbox play and uing the geobox.

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post #102 of 631 Old 11-30-2012, 11:54 PM
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Is there a recommended angle or distance when mounting the filters in front of the projectors' lens? Thanks a lot for all the info. This 3d system changed my perception on 3d entertainment! Watched 2 movies with my wife without straining our eyes. I even feel relaxed after watching.!
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post #103 of 631 Old 12-01-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redhorse72 View Post

Is there a recommended angle or distance when mounting the filters in front of the projectors' lens? Thanks a lot for all the info. This 3d system changed my perception on 3d entertainment! Watched 2 movies with my wife without straining our eyes. I even feel relaxed after watching.!

Im glad you got to see 3D the way it should be, without strain. for the filter mounting it should be close to the lens where the image is small and the angle should be 90 deg to the image beam. most small projectors have the image coming out of the projector at ~5-7 deg up , or down if you mount them above. this is the slight angle the filter should be at for best performance. so exactly perpendicular to the image beam in other words.
thanks for the feedback.

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post #104 of 631 Old 12-05-2012, 06:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is my latest Rig for gaming http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBBZry-2gSE this was fun to make and test.. i will be selling it soon..

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post #105 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 02:28 AM
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Is this system different then the 3D-Evolver? http://www.curtpalme.com/3DEvolver.shtm
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post #106 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Is this system different then the 3D-Evolver? http://www.curtpalme.com/3DEvolver.shtm

This system would work WITH the 3D Evolver, all the Evolver is doing is splitting the source into two HDMI feeds, one for the "left" projector and one for the "right".... Its nothing new and its way overpriced.
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post #107 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

This system would work WITH the 3D Evolver, all the Evolver is doing is splitting the source into two HDMI feeds, one for the "left" projector and one for the "right".... Its nothing new and its way overpriced.
thanks for your reply. But the big advantage of the 3D-Evolver is that it support Dolby 3D now so I could use it on my regular 1.0 Gain screen not?
What are the same but cheaper products then the 3D-Evolver?

The reason I m thinking about this is because I own a Sony HW50 atm but I don t like the dim picture and flickering. Could a second HW50 projector with a passive system solve the issues (flicker and brightness) I have?
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post #108 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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as far as i can tell the 3d evolver is just a demultiplexer. and dose not have image alignment / warping ability. the 3D Evolver is no more able to make Dolby 3D function correcty than anything else. there is no access to the projection filters that are key in making Dolby 3D workwith the glasses at all and Dolby 3D still fails in many ways as a 3D system especially with UHP projectors
. read the other thread here about peoples experiance with Dolby... or do you mean that Dolby glasses free thing that dose not exist as of yet. ? or the audio Dolby 3D ???
the Geobox i have been using has digital audio out split off from the HDMI and is more than capable of passing any form of audio

no matter how you put together a dual projector system it will be far better than shutter glasses.

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post #109 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

as far as i can tell the 3d evolver is just a demultiplexer. and dose not have image alignment / warping ability. the 3D Evolver is no more able to make Dolby 3D function correcty than anything else. there is no access to the projection filters that are key in making Dolby 3D workwith the glasses at all and Dolby 3D still fails in many ways as a 3D system especially with UHP projectors
. read the other thread here about peoples experiance with Dolby... or do you mean that Dolby glasses free thing that dose not exist as of yet. ? or the audio Dolby 3D ???
the Geobox i have been using has digital audio out split off from the HDMI and is more than capable of passing any form of audio
no matter how you put together a dual projector system it will be far better than shutter glasses.
So what will I need for a passive dual projector setup (besides 2x a Sony HW50 which I already have)? And will the colors be perfect? I ve read that there are some problems with not displaying correct colors? And what is the disadvantage of using 2x a Sony HW50 (which is lcos) instead of 2x a DLP pj?
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post #110 of 631 Old 12-17-2012, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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with the sony lcos system most any chromatic 3d system will not be perfect. dolby system will suffer the worst as two of their 6 spectral bands will be all but eliminated by the deep spectral notches in the sony lcos system making color balance nearly impossible. the omega filter system fars much better with these systems but it will not be perfect. DLP projectors tend to have a more full spectral output and make for far better color balance. jvc projectors that are lcos also suffer from the same issue as sony. a polarizing system will work better here but you will have some ghosting and need a silver screen.
i have been using two optoma hd20's with great results and no need for a gain screen. the images in this post were from those. nothing wrong with the 3d evolver but for the price it dose not do nearly as much as the geobox. the image alignment is fantastic and makes 2d with both projectors look great. again the images i posted are just that.

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post #111 of 631 Old 12-19-2012, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

with the sony lcos system most any chromatic 3d system will not be perfect. dolby system will suffer the worst as two of their 6 spectral bands will be all but eliminated by the deep spectral notches in the sony lcos system making color balance nearly impossible. the omega filter system fars much better with these systems but it will not be perfect. DLP projectors tend to have a more full spectral output and make for far better color balance. jvc projectors that are lcos also suffer from the same issue as sony. a polarizing system will work better here but you will have some ghosting and need a silver screen.
i have been using two optoma hd20's with great results and no need for a gain screen. the images in this post were from those. nothing wrong with the 3d evolver but for the price it dose not do nearly as much as the geobox. the image alignment is fantastic and makes 2d with both projectors look great. again the images i posted are just that.
Thanks for your reply. I know for sure I m going to be bothered with the black level of a dual HD20 setup so that is not an option for me. What if you want inky black levels (like the JVC and Sony HW50/VW95 produce) but also have a flickerfree and ghosting free picture, is that something that is simply not possible for under 10K atm? ( I know you can solve this all by getting yourself a SIM2 3D SOLO which does tripple flask 144Hz but this one will cost 30-40K).

What I also would like to know: a passive system would eliminate flickering correct? How does it eliminate flickering? Is it some kind of system that does 3:2 pulldown and show @60Hz per eye? Or is it just the non-shutter glasses that take care of a picture without flickering?
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post #112 of 631 Old 12-20-2012, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

Thanks for your reply. I know for sure I m going to be bothered with the black level of a dual HD20 setup so that is not an option for me. What if you want inky black levels (like the JVC and Sony HW50/VW95 produce) but also have a flickerfree and ghosting free picture, is that something that is simply not possible for under 10K atm? ( I know you can solve this all by getting yourself a SIM2 3D SOLO which does tripple flask 144Hz but this one will cost 30-40K).
What I also would like to know: a passive system would eliminate flickering correct? How does it eliminate flickering? Is it some kind of system that does 3:2 pulldown and show @60Hz per eye? Or is it just the non-shutter glasses that take care of a picture without flickering?

A passive system will eliminate flicker only if it is displaying both images at the same time, which dual projectors do. There is also a way to make a single projector passive with a z-screen, this method still has flicker.

The cheapest alternative to the 3D Evolver would be 2 Optoma 3D-XL boxes, I have them for sale in the classifieds section but with shipping charges it may be easier for you to get them locally. If you have the money then get the Geobox.
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post #113 of 631 Old 12-20-2012, 08:15 AM
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I'd choose different words : I wouldn't say a passive system eliminates flicker, I'd take the opposite approach and say passive systems avoid creating flicker by not doing stuff that creates it.

The source of all flicker is dark time between frames. The more dark time, the more flicker. The problem with active systems is that they have to create at least 50% dark time in each eye in order to create the 3D effect (they split the light between the eyes over time). The higher refresh rate is there to split these dark times over multiple frames so that you don't get a too long dark time in a row. You'll notice less flicker if you see two short dark times than one long one.
Passive dual projectors avoid this completely, since each projector is 100% dedicated to an eye they don't create new flicker.
This doesn't mean they do not have any flicker at all, because dark times do exist on 2D projectors : Film projectors have a shutter, DLP projectors have a colour wheel which acts like a shutter for each individual primary colour (the source of RBE artefacts with DLP projectors if not fast enough), LCD projectors sometimes emulate a virtual shutter by transitioning to black every frame to reduce the blur effect of LCD projectors (my epson projectors have an option to do that with 2:2 pulldown in 24Hz mode).
Most people don't even know about it because these dark times are designed to be short enough so that people don't notice any flicker in 2D presentations.

So to try to make it more simple, i'll say that :
-passive dual projection keeps the flicker the same in 3D as in 2D. If your projector doesn't flicker in 2D, it won't in 3D
-active projection will create more flicker in 3D than in 2D. It might be fine in 2D but flicker in 3D.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #114 of 631 Old 12-20-2012, 08:17 AM
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It seems that extensive research has been done to develop the 3D capabilities of the Omega System.
And even the correction for LCD users has been addressed.
I don't think anyone will make the DIY'r system that much better unless you are willing to step up to cinema projectors.
The passive dual projector solution seems the best for extinction and clear 3d and 2d images.
The color balance is very important but not as extremely critical as everyone thinks.
Each eye will experience some color shift difference due to wavelength, but I have yet to see where it matters that much, you don't watch 3D with one eye.
trying to make exact, perfect colors seems to be a little misunderstood.
I know computer servers that address color correction are out there but the cost is outrageous and is not for the retail consumer, but the theater, and they don't get it right all the time either.
The 3D effect is way more important than small color variations that are negligible in content viewing.
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post #115 of 631 Old 12-20-2012, 09:18 AM
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Different people will have different priorities. A colour guru will never be happy with Omega unless it's a Xenon lamp.
But there is quite a difference between "it's only 99% accurate so i'm not happy" and "hey ! something is really wrong with this picture"
My experience with the Omega system and consumer LCD projector is closer to the latter than the former. The LCD special filters do help but can't do miracles.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #116 of 631 Old 12-21-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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the LCD filters do help but cannot overcome the issues of deep spectral filtering that is in most LCD and especially the LCoS systems from Japan. some DLP projectors have some of this issue and the main flaw is the combo of spectral notches of cyan and yellow with a UHP lamp. i have looked at all kinds of variations and none will fit all needs in a chromatic 3D system working with the spectral output of the commertial units being offered. Very good with some and not with others.
the ideal light source i think is LED but not the RGB ones out now. you can emulate xenon spectrum and better with LED's. lasers are interesting but are expensive and have their own issues. i would really love to work with RED on their system but have not been able to connect or find any interest.
Spectro is right that there are very expensive servers that can do digital color correction and make things near perfect , but that is not in reach of most. you should see how good the omega filters work for color balance with good DLP projectors. I know I know RBE... 1% see this. in all the people i have shown my demo rig to not one has said, I see color flickers or RBE.. 5% or more cant see 3D..
I wish i could say the filter system is perfect, i know its not. but its Way better than Dolby/infitec and has benifits over polarizing

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post #117 of 631 Old 12-31-2012, 02:36 PM
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Happy New Year everyone!

After coming across to this thread, I decided instead of trading up my Sanyo PLV-Z2000 (LCD) for a better single projector capable of 3D, I'll get an identical unit (~$500 only) and take the Omega DD3D route. Very happy to do away the active shutter glasses, the impossible color correction with Dolby, and most of all a silver screen!

Motorman, could you please confirm that the small filter set on Amazon is sufficiently large for PLV-Z2000 (a DIY mount will be made to have them right in front of the lenses)? In the spec the filters are described to be 55 X 35 mm, with mounting border - I take it that the border will be in addition to the 55 x 35 mm? Thanks very much in advance!
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post #118 of 631 Old 12-31-2012, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Happy New Year everyone!
After coming across to this thread, I decided instead of trading up my Sanyo PLV-Z2000 (LCD) for a better single projector capable of 3D, I'll get an identical unit (~$500 only) and take the Omega DD3D route. Very happy to do away the active shutter glasses, the impossible color correction with Dolby, and most of all a silver screen!
Motorman, could you please confirm that the small filter set on Amazon is sufficiently large for PLV-Z2000 (a DIY mount will be made to have them right in front of the lenses)? In the spec the filters are described to be 55 X 35 mm, with mounting border - I take it that the border will be in addition to the 55 x 35 mm? Thanks very much in advance!

the small filters should be fine. your correct the usable filter is 35mmx55mm and the mount/border is larger. i have yet to see a home theater projector that dose not work with the small filters. the actual image beam near the lens is quite small, no where near the size of the lens. just make sure to mount the filters close to the lens and angle them slightly so the filter is at 90 deg to the image beam. usually the image projects at an angle of 5-7 deg up from the center line without lens shift.

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post #119 of 631 Old 12-31-2012, 03:36 PM
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Thanks Motorman! I just did an img size mock-up on a piece of paper close to the lens, 55 x 35 mm will work. Interesting that you brought up the aligning filter 90 deg to img point - I'll be doing a horizontal side by side set up since Sanyo PLV Z200 does come with lens shift... now I am excited...biggrin.gif
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post #120 of 631 Old 01-02-2013, 07:17 PM
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Today I tried Nvidias 3D Vision Discover just to get a fresh idea of what it was like to use it, since it had been years since I had. I remember it worked ok, but not great due to the fact that I could never match the colors of the glasses to Nvidias output. I was more curious as to what is being called eye rivalry in the Omega Stereoscopic offering and if I'd experience it using their red/cyan set-up.

Well it seemed to me that the biggest factor was the lack of extinction between the images, besides of course color do to the limitations of such a basic format.

So it seems to me that although I have a 720P LED DLP projector that is not optimal for your filters, that I could still get a fairly enjoyable experience from them due to the claim of 99% extinction. Being that both the lenses and glasses are optimally calibrated to each other.

So the only factor would be a small or moderate loss of color . Which I'm willing to live with in order to ditch the shutter glasses.

So before I buy your system, I'm curious if eye rivalry due to color inbalance becomes a big issue if using a budget LED PJ like the PLED-W500. I would think with good extinction, that it wouldn't matter.

I plan on just gaming, so if the colors aren't as good as in 2D, I'll live.

I do have to say that my projector is a lot of fun for 2D gaimg. I can input a pseudo 2560x1600@60Hz image into it that looks great. It will also accept a full 2560x2048@30Hz signal but due to the diamond pixels of DMD 0.45 chip it uses, text is unreadable unless magnified by 200%. Both are done via VGA.

One other thing, what's minimum Hz output that will work with your system. I can get 1980x1080@29 per eye frame sequential to enable but the shutter glasses do not activate. I can due pseudo 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 at 120Hz, but pseudos are a no go for 3D and even 2D at that Hz will not enable in games.
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