The Tech behind converting old 3d films for new Blu-ray 3d (or even modern theater 3d) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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After hearing about how Dial M for Murdur was coming out in 3d I started thinking..

Given how 3d technology was was very different than modern implementations, how is it done? Way back you used the colored glasses for those films, nowadays you don't. How does converting an old 3d film originally thought of to view one way and now another affect how it's restored?

Not sure if anybody has an article link to the tech behind it or if anybody is working on these films to illuminate the process, but it would be cool to know!
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post #2 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 08:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Doug0915 View Post

After hearing about how Dial M for Murdur was coming out in 3d I started thinking..
Given how 3d technology was was very different than modern implementations, how is it done? Way back you used the colored glasses for those films, nowadays you don't. How does converting an old 3d film originally thought of to view one way and now another affect how it's restored?
Not sure if anybody has an article link to the tech behind it or if anybody is working on these films to illuminate the process, but it would be cool to know!

Colored glasses? Nope - that is a myth. They used the exact same technique and technology then as they use today. Two cameras either side by side or in the "L" pattern to capture seperate, full color L & R eye images. Then two projectors in the theater with polarizing filters and the audience wears polarized (Linear) glasses. The only difference is now they use digital cameras and projectors instead of 35mm cameras and projectors
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post #3 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 08:23 AM
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That's interesting, because any time you see pictures of people watching 3D movies from back in the day (usually in period films made after the fact), the audiences are wearing anaglyph glasses, the "famous" ones with the white cardboard frames.

If those weren't used, then where did they come from? Maybe home presentation? Broadcast, then later VHS and DVD, using anaglyph? Did black & white films use polarization as well? I'm not disputing the idea, I'm just curious.

I'm thinking more of the projection side than the capture.. I'm sure the capture was always done the way it is now. For an old movie shot in 3D, it would simply be a matter of going back to the negatives, or some original print that still had the different views separated out as full color images. Using today's technology, putting that together would be a snap. I imagine the OP is referring to using an anaglyph source as trying to extract two full-color frames from that. I'm not even sure that's possible. It's easy with black & white, I've done it myself, but I've never had any luck with color photos.

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post #4 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Colored glasses? Nope - that is a myth. They used the exact same technique and technology then as they use today. Two cameras either side by side or in the "L" pattern to capture seperate, full color L & R eye images. Then two projectors in the theater with polarizing filters and the audience wears polarized (Linear) glasses. The only difference is now they use digital cameras and projectors instead of 35mm cameras and projectors

OH, I was referring to what the audience used. (red green glasses as opposed to what is used in today's theaters)
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post #5 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

That's interesting, because any time you see pictures of people watching 3D movies from back in the day (usually in period films made after the fact), the audiences are wearing anaglyph glasses, the "famous" ones with the white cardboard frames.
If those weren't used, then where did they come from? Maybe home presentation? Broadcast, then later VHS and DVD, using anaglyph? Did black & white films use polarization as well? I'm not disputing the idea, I'm just curious.
I'm thinking more of the projection side than the capture.. I'm sure the capture was always done the way it is now. For an old movie shot in 3D, it would simply be a matter of going back to the negatives, or some original print that still had the different views separated out as full color images. Using today's technology, putting that together would be a snap. I imagine the OP is referring to using an anaglyph source as trying to extract two full-color frames from that. I'm not even sure that's possible. It's easy with black & white, I've done it myself, but I've never had any luck with color photos.

Typing as I think here, the result of a restored 3d film might be VERY different than what a director using the old carboard red/green had seen during editing on their face vs using today's technology. The 3d might be much more pronounced after the restoration than was originally intended (or less..who knows).

Personally speaking better 3d is a good thing.

As a restorationist with old 3d what are you trying to preserve? The way the original 3d was portrayed to the audience as it was released? or does that matter?
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post #6 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 10:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

That's interesting, because any time you see pictures of people watching 3D movies from back in the day (usually in period films made after the fact), the audiences are wearing anaglyph glasses, the "famous" ones with the white cardboard frames.

There were two kinds of 3D content shown in the "Golden Age" of 3D - full length movies (ALL polarized) and shorts (usually 15 minutes or less). The cost to run a dual projection setup in a theater was very high. And the requirement for the projectors to be in sync with each other was problematic.

Some cheap theater owners may have ordered Anaglyph prints so that they could use a single projector only. But that is not how the movies were shot nor projected at high quality theaters
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If those weren't used, then where did they come from? Maybe home presentation? Broadcast, then later VHS and DVD, using anaglyph? Did black & white films use polarization as well? I'm not disputing the idea, I'm just curious.

Yes - B & W 3D was also polarized, You will be able to see this when Creature From The Black Lagoon is released on 3D BD this October
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I'm thinking more of the projection side than the capture.. I'm sure the capture was always done the way it is now. For an old movie shot in 3D, it would simply be a matter of going back to the negatives, or some original print that still had the different views separated out as full color images. Using today's technology, putting that together would be a snap. I imagine the OP is referring to using an anaglyph source as trying to extract two full-color frames from that. I'm not even sure that's possible. It's easy with black & white, I've done it myself, but I've never had any luck with color photos.

Other than some 3D shorts, all 3D content from 1952 to 1955 was polarized - dual film strip.
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post #7 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Doug0915 View Post

OH, I was referring to what the audience used. (red green glasses as opposed to what is used in today's theaters)

The audience used cardboard polarized glasses. Not Anaglyph, which BTW, at the time would have been Red/Cyan and was used in Comic Books not 3D movies
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post #8 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Doug0915 View Post

Typing as I think here, the result of a restored 3d film might be VERY different than what a director using the old carboard red/green had seen during editing on their face vs using today's technology. The 3d might be much more pronounced after the restoration than was originally intended (or less..who knows).
Personally speaking better 3d is a good thing.
As a restorationist with old 3d what are you trying to preserve? The way the original 3d was portrayed to the audience as it was released? or does that matter?

The director would have been using POLARIZED cardboard glasses . . . NOT Anaglyph glasses. Don't believe everything you see, or should I post the famous newspaper that said "DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN!"
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post #9 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 10:34 AM
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There was a home viewing technology that may be the first shutter glasses 3D back in the late 80's. This was considered an improvement over anaglyph on VHS. A number of these old movies were converted to VHS using this technology and later same were converted and released on DVD up to around year 2000.

I posted a detailed instruction set on how to view these older movies on your modern Digital TV's, a feat previously thought not to be possible.

Special thanks to Forum Member Frank Stearns for pointing me in a new direction that allowed me to work out the solution to this "impossible" method.


I have a few of these old 3D movies and are a fun watch.
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post #10 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 10:55 AM
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Woah, wait a minute.. Creature from the Black Lagoon was filmed in 3D? Holy crap, I did not know that! I am so there for that BD release.

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post #11 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

The director would have been using POLARIZED cardboard glasses . . . NOT Anaglyph glasses. Don't believe everything you see, or should I post the famous newspaper that said "DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN!"

No prob smile.gif The only early experience I had with 3d (I'm 42) was some TV that was brodcast with Anaglyph. I remember seeing ads on TV to go to your local 7-Eleven to pick up cardboard glasses which when I picked them up were Anaglyph. My apparently wrong assumptions came from the fact that the films that I watched with that were (from what I remember) old films.
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post #12 of 17 Old 07-01-2012, 09:55 PM
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For those with questions about the Golden Age of 3D in the 1950's, I refer you to this:

http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/home/top-10-3-d-myths

And spend some time perusing the rest of the site:

http://www.3dfilmarchive.com

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post #13 of 17 Old 07-02-2012, 10:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Doug0915 View Post

No prob smile.gif The only early experience I had with 3d (I'm 42) was some TV that was brodcast with Anaglyph. I remember seeing ads on TV to go to your local 7-Eleven to pick up cardboard glasses which when I picked them up were Anaglyph. My apparently wrong assumptions came from the fact that the films that I watched with that were (from what I remember) old films.

Right - on TV. They were true full color stereoscopic films that were converted to Anaglyph 3D for TV presentations. Some of these conversions made it to both DVD and BD.
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post #14 of 17 Old 07-02-2012, 02:01 PM
 
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Woah, wait a minute.. Creature from the Black Lagoon was filmed in 3D? Holy crap, I did not know that! I am so there for that BD release.

Just so you are aware, CFTBL is included in a 9 movie box set. I have yet to see anything that says it will be released seperately:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Universal-Classic-Monsters-The-Essential-Collection-Blu-ray/35661/
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post #15 of 17 Old 07-03-2012, 08:38 PM
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Just so you are aware, CFTBL is included in a 9 movie box set. I have yet to see anything that says it will be released seperately:
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Universal-Classic-Monsters-The-Essential-Collection-Blu-ray/35661/
Actually.. I'm okay with that.. those are some good films all around. smile.gif But, we'll wait and see.

For some reason, it didn't occur to me that this isn't the first time there's been a big "3D boom", and it was interesting to go back and see the list of some of the old films that I never knew were shot 3D.

The funny part is that they didn't bother with cheap conversions back in the day.. dual-cameras FTW.. lol.

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post #16 of 17 Old 07-04-2012, 07:07 AM
 
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Actually.. I'm okay with that.. those are some good films all around. smile.gif But, we'll wait and see.
For some reason, it didn't occur to me that this isn't the first time there's been a big "3D boom", and it was interesting to go back and see the list of some of the old films that I never knew were shot 3D.
The funny part is that they didn't bother with cheap conversions back in the day.. dual-cameras FTW.. lol.

How were they to do "cheap conversions" when they didn't have computers or software that would allow that back then?

The second "3D Boom" came in the 1980s and they did cheapen out on 3D - no more dual cameras to capture and no more dual projectors to present. But still in polarized 3D.

After the 1980s 3D Boom, there wasn't much 3D until IMAX 15/70 3D came about. But it didn't use polarized 3D. It used active shutter for many years.

The 3rd "3D Boom" started in 2005 and continues to this day.
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post #17 of 17 Old 08-30-2012, 11:41 AM
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For a contemporary picture (and article for that matter) on 1950s 3-D tech, see Time Magazine 's site.
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