3D not really 3D? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 08-13-2012, 03:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got my first 3D TV. My HDMI runs into my processor, then out through that to TV. First problem: player does not recognize 3D display hookup. I'm thinking maybe the processor prevents recognition of my 3D display, so run HDMI directly to TV. Now player recognizes display. I press the 3D button on the TV remote. A box appears asking if my 3D format is side-by-side or over-top. I do not know, so select side-by-side. I'm not getting 3D. Instead it looks rather flat and double-imaged. Try over-top setting. No difference. Got headache. Stopped playback, came here.

Blu-ray case says I need high-speed HDMI cable, amongst other stuff I've got. Is this different somehow than my good heavy-duty monoprice cable? Is that the problem? How about the issue of going through my processor? Can't you watch 3D AND have good sound? Does the processor need to be special too, or what is the hookup to get both sound from the processor while passing the 3D image?

The 3D test image from the TV itself works great -- definite deep 3D effect, no double-imaging, so the glasses work in conjunction with the TV -- I'm having problems with the player-to-processor-to-TV connection. Any thoughts would be most appreciated -- I've got limited time to return this rather expensive TV if there is something malfunctioning. The player I've had for awhile, but never tested it for 3D.

System is:

SONY BDP-BX57
INTEGRA DTC 9.8
SHARP LC-70C8470U
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post #2 of 13 Old 08-13-2012, 07:23 PM
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It seems your processor is not 3d capable, so you will have to bypass it for 3d video. I was told you need high speed cables for 3d, but of course there's a lot of doubletalk going on. If you have a Tuesday Morning store nearby, you can pick up some high speed hdmi cables pretty cheaply to test that your cables aren't up to spec.
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post #3 of 13 Old 08-14-2012, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sonyad View Post

It seems your processor is not 3d capable, so you will have to bypass it for 3d video. I was told you need high speed cables for 3d, but of course there's a lot of doubletalk going on. If you have a Tuesday Morning store nearby, you can pick up some high speed hdmi cables pretty cheaply to test that your cables aren't up to spec.
Thanks for your help. Yes, the test where I bypassed the processor seemed to verify that my blu-ray player not recognizing a 3D display was caused by the intervening unit. I was not aware that the processor being in the loop could thwart the 3D, but the fact that it does would have made 3D a no-sale for me.

On the cable -- seems hard for me to accept that a simple cable could be labeled "high-speed" -- sounds as if there is some active component to the cable, but it is still just jacketed wire, right? So is gauge the different factor? Monoprice has HDMI cables that feature something called "RedMere Technology", whatever that is. they are represented to be high speed -- could those make the difference?

On the issue of selecting a format for the TV to display 3D on your TV (based on how the disc is encoded, I guess) -- how is one to know whether the disc is presented with side-by-side 3D, or over-the-top 3D? -- that is the choice my TV presents to me when requesting 3D presentation.

Again, thanks for the help!
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post #4 of 13 Old 08-14-2012, 08:03 AM
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I don't think your Blu-ray outputs either of those, it outputs "frame-packed 3D". If it was top-bottom the image would look like this on the TV without 3D enabled:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Top-Bottom-Example.jpg

This is what side-by-side looks like:
http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/artman2/uploads/2/side-by-side-3d.jpg

Here is what is output by your blu-ray player:
http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-frame-packing-3d/

Check your manual, as I am not sure your set can handle a frame-packed signal. It should. Is there a 3D 'Auto" setting instead of top/bottom or side-by-side?
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post #5 of 13 Old 08-14-2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

Thanks for your help. Yes, the test where I bypassed the processor seemed to verify that my blu-ray player not recognizing a 3D display was caused by the intervening unit. I was not aware that the processor being in the loop could thwart the 3D, but the fact that it does would have made 3D a no-sale for me.
On the cable -- seems hard for me to accept that a simple cable could be labeled "high-speed" -- sounds as if there is some active component to the cable, but it is still just jacketed wire, right? So is gauge the different factor? Monoprice has HDMI cables that feature something called "RedMere Technology", whatever that is. they are represented to be high speed -- could those make the difference?
On the issue of selecting a format for the TV to display 3D on your TV (based on how the disc is encoded, I guess) -- how is one to know whether the disc is presented with side-by-side 3D, or over-the-top 3D? -- that is the choice my TV presents to me when requesting 3D presentation.
Again, thanks for the help!

By your observation, your video processor is just not state of the art to include 3D hdmi processing. IMO, when one goes to 3D updating his home theater, the best solution is the simplest one and often is lower cost and more convenient. In recent past adding a video processor was a way to upgrade the electronics while keeping an older technology but good amplifier, tuner and preamp. We have had two major upgrades to Home Theater technology in recent years. 1. was the move from SD to HD and 2. the move from 2D to 3D. Each of these required a new mind set as to audio / video processing. It's often hard to justify making an upgrade for 3D if you recently held out and added a new system at significant cost of HD / DD 7.1 that was not ready for the latest 3D compatibility. But that has to be a personal decision. Today, if your AVR and associated processor is more than 6 years old, it might be advisable to upgrade to a state of the art AVR with 3D compatibility. The cost isn't that much compared to what some had invested in those high end video processors ( me included). I upgraded to the Denon AVR 4311CI and have no regrets. It was really one of the best bangs for the buck to upgrade the capability of my HT into the 21st century. Just kept the older power amps but dumped all the HDMI switch boxes and video processors one costing 2.5 times what the new AVR costs.

The cable is as you suspect, just wire. What makes a high speed cable, "high speed" is that the wire is low capacitance that permits higher frequencies to pass. Making a low capacitance cable is more expensive than a low speed cable but beyond that minor difference, you pay for brand name and store shelf added cost. IMO, get a "high speed" rated hdmi cable, but don't over pay for fancy names and in a fancy store package. Having sound feedback and internet is also an advantage to some for convenience but not required for hdmi 3D. Some older cables labeled High speed may lack the extra wire for this connection.

3D formats- While there have been many 3D formats over the years, today we need to be concerned with only two categories today- "Frame packed" which is auto selected by your 3DTV using proper hdmi connections. Some TV's may have a warning statement about putting on glasses etc that you have to agree to but it should go into 3D frame packed mode automatically. All 3D BD players and nearly all Blu Ray in 3D are frame packed so everything should be automatic. The other category are the modes that have to be set manually. You discovered these as side by side and over / under, or top/ bottom. Some TV's also support row interleaved, checkerboard and a few other odd ball uncommon formats. Most likely you will only need to be concerned with the SBS selection as that is common to internet, You Tube and such, as well as broadcast, cable, and satellite formats. Some of these may also be in Top / Bottom. So, bottom line, if your 3D source is from a Blu Ray Player 3D BD then it should be automatic. If it is from DirecTV or Cable, or any Internet source, it is likely SBS or TB and you will need to set that manually in the TV menus so the TV will know how to interpret the signal. Note that a PS3 can also output frame packed 3D from either it's BD player or from other web based content. The PS3 should be treated just like a 3D BD player.
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post #6 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you gentlemen so much for taking the time to help this neophite! I did not know that the processor could interrupt the transmission of the 3D signal. That would have made me opt for a 2D set, since the store I was at had both versions of their 70" on a 33% sale -- there was little time to choose just then, as the one and only 70" 2D set they had, had another buyer standing right there waiting for me to decide. I went for the 3D not only because of the 3D, but because of the double refresh rate and maybe other features I did not have time right then to check out. Didn't really know if I might or might not like 3D -- never seen the new 3D on any screen, large or small!

Bottom line, love the TV -- in fact changed my whole house around to accomodate it after feeling the love, but still had no 3D movie to test that aspect, even just to know it worked. Then came the movie in the mail, then came the problems. Last night I shortened my HDMI connection with my Monoprice cable -- had a 6 footer versus the earlier experimented with 20 footer which did not work. And guess what? -- I got 3D! It went out a few times and back to flat, but after those glitches, performed for 15 minutes or so, enough to assure me the feature worked, which was what I wanted to know for the immediate goal.

Was not considering a new processor, and don't know if I am now -- feels like I got pulled into something -- but what I did want to know is if there was another way to go about it -- can you use an HDMI splitter, or do they even make them? -- one path for the monitor TV, the other for my audio processing? How about blu-ray players with two outputs for HDMI? -- do they make those/would that work?

BTW, Monoprice makes some great, nice cables -- this company blows me away, so it was hard for me to believe that their cables would not work for 3D, whether they were sold as "high speed" or not. And again, I really appreciate that folks would take time out to smooth out this somewhat rough startup for my entry into 3D -- maybe it will become my whole new thing!
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post #7 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 05:58 AM
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They do make an HDMI splitter (about $25) and they work well. But it won,t solve your problem because it will default to the lowest type device (a non 1.4 HDMI AVR) and your blue ray player tests for a 3D device when you insert a 3D BR. You would have to unplug the HDMI to the AVR to start playing 3D BR then plug it back in for audio (might or might not work). You could use OPTICAL out of Blu-Ray for audio but would lose Lossless Audio just for your 3D playback. The PS3 only tests for a 3D device when setup of video and doesn't test again when playing anything 3D so you only have to connect directly , setup Video , reconnect to the splitter and it will work great. Welcome to the world of 3D and discovering you have to replace more then you thought when buying a 3D TV.

Smart enough to know better, to old to care
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post #8 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 09:28 AM
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Glad you got it to work and I think you made the right decision on the 3D model of the TV. While you weren't looking for 3D, you may discover that you like it for it's most redeeming purpose, to add entertainment value. The move to 3D in Home video is a great time to update those other parts of the system so when you can you will find the investment in a good AVR that does it all by today's standards a welcome upgrade. Aside from integrated 9 hdmi ports all hdmi 1.4a, I got Dolby Volume which is a wonderful feature that automatically levels the volume on TV commercials, vs. programs. No longer does this blast us out of the room. 11.2 audio is also fun even though today 7.1 is all we see in the media. I'm ready to add speakers when that comes along.

The OPPO BD-93 is probably the best feature rich 3D BD player but is pricey. ( dual hdmi outputs and analog 7.1 audio outputs. Panasonic and Sony also have good models. However, while more awkward to use for playing blu rays, Sony PS3 will give you the most bang for the buck. I also agree with what rekbones said and repeat- your next best purchase for overall improvement to your HT will be replace the processor and AVR you now have with a state of the art one like I suggested in the Denon 4311CI. You won't regret it even if 3D isn't your favorite way to watch movies. It's not for everyone.
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post #9 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 11:03 AM
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Want to add that I have simply plugged and unplugged my HDMI cable each time I switch from 3D to 2D. It is cheap and it works. Later, I'll get a new receiver.
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post #10 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post

They do make an HDMI splitter (about $25) and they work well. But it won,t solve your problem because it will default to the lowest type device (a non 1.4 HDMI AVR) and your blue ray player tests for a 3D device when you insert a 3D BR. You would have to unplug the HDMI to the AVR to start playing 3D BR then plug it back in for audio (might or might not work). You could use OPTICAL out of Blu-Ray for audio but would lose Lossless Audio just for your 3D playback. The PS3 only tests for a 3D device when setup of video and doesn't test again when playing anything 3D so you only have to connect directly , setup Video , reconnect to the splitter and it will work great. Welcome to the world of 3D and discovering you have to replace more then you thought when buying a 3D TV.
Very helpful! Thank you. I undoubtedly would have heard sooner or later of the availability of splitters/dual outlets, gone ahead and bought into it, then had another glitch I was left to explain. I'm sure you have spared me some compound agonies with your info. I'll get it figured out eventually. Could go the step-down to lossy audio with optical for now -- may very well do that for the weekend, see if I can avoid being aware of it while immersing in 3D. That might well happen as when I watched last night, I swear I haven't the slightest idea what any of the action onscreen meant in terms of plot or story, was just watching the picture. Thanks again.
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post #11 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Glad you got it to work and I think you made the right decision on the 3D model of the TV. While you weren't looking for 3D, you may discover that you like it for it's most redeeming purpose, to add entertainment value. The move to 3D in Home video is a great time to update those other parts of the system so when you can you will find the investment in a good AVR that does it all by today's standards a welcome upgrade. Aside from integrated 9 hdmi ports all hdmi 1.4a, I got Dolby Volume which is a wonderful feature that automatically levels the volume on TV commercials, vs. programs. No longer does this blast us out of the room. 11.2 audio is also fun even though today 7.1 is all we see in the media. I'm ready to add speakers when that comes along.
The OPPO BD-93 is probably the best feature rich 3D BD player but is pricey. ( dual hdmi outputs and analog 7.1 audio outputs. Panasonic and Sony also have good models. However, while more awkward to use for playing blu rays, Sony PS3 will give you the most bang for the buck. I also agree with what rekbones said and repeat- your next best purchase for overall improvement to your HT will be replace the processor and AVR you now have with a state of the art one like I suggested in the Denon 4311CI. You won't regret it even if 3D isn't your favorite way to watch movies. It's not for everyone.
Oh yes, now that I've confirmed the 3D works, I'm utterly delighted. I got a killer deal -- paid $500 less for the 3D than the current street (internet) price for their comparable 2D model. Was really thinking about keeping it even if the 3D was malfunctioning, though that would have been a drag and something I would have continued to think about. But now to know that everything works AND I have such a great big picture to go with my awesome sound, I couldn't be happier! Thanks for your generous help!

Maybe I'll get the new processor -- my INTEGRA 9.8 is about 4 years old now, still does exactly what it is supposed to do, with the exception that I may have only one input that does the lossless -- gives a proper readout of the lossless sound format in use. I think the others (which I do not use) just read MULTICHANNEL on the front panel display. Sent it in on warranty recently at the very end of the three year period, they corrected the menu malfunction, but the front panel display, or erroneous default to lossy audio thing was not corrected. I changed the input I had been using and found one that worked, but that is all I need -- I don't actually have anything other than my blu-ray hooked up to it -- blew out the tweets on my $30K giant speakers having a DVHS unit hooked into the processor -- got a shocking DTS blast. Instantly resolved: no more unstable, unreliable, capricious volume-changing sources for me. Besides, nothing on TV going to impress me for sound, and even if it would, I just get the blu-ray of the series and watch without the commercials AND get the awesome sound!

You have been most helpful. Thank you!
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post #12 of 13 Old 08-15-2012, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TrickMcKaha View Post

Want to add that I have simply plugged and unplugged my HDMI cable each time I switch from 3D to 2D. It is cheap and it works. Later, I'll get a new receiver.
Can you go over the sequence of what you are doing? -- as in when in the sequence of turning things on, starting your movie, you unplug, and from where? Thanks!
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post #13 of 13 Old 08-17-2012, 08:57 PM
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on my $30K giant speakers

ah... with that said I see money is not the main issue here. smile.gif You should consider making the buy on that Denon 4311ci I mentioned and trying it out for an isolated 3D work flow. You may find the new AVR satisfies your ears just fine and with Dolby Volume, you can level the sound between commercials and program like it was done right at the uplink. Just give it a fair setup and use one of the other inputs on your TV. Maybe keep the high quality audio processor for your SACD's smile.gif Glad to be of help and have fun with it. PS- Get a good deal from AVS.
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