1080p @60fps (per eye) 3D on an AMD HD 7970 card.... over HDMI... is this true? Is it half true? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 12-08-2012, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm about to buy myself a nice 1920x1080 3D projector, for some 3D gaming, it all sounds very nice, especially after I bought myself an HD 7970 card (maybe I'll even get a second one). Then I found out that 1080p 3D is bottlenecked by the HDMI interface to a max of 24fps per eye, that was a major turnoff, since the difference to 1080p and 720p is actually pretty noticeable on big big screens. Ofc 1080p 60 fps 3D would be fully supported if I used the Display Port cable, but... there are no projectors with Display Ports on my budget as far as I can tell.

But then someone tells me HD 7970 supports 1080p 3D via HDMI, it sounded odd, they mentioned it on a review. So I went to AMD's website to check that, there I found some neat .pdf file takling about it:
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/DisplayTechnology_whitepaper.pdf

Now here's the excerpt of what's important:

Quote:
HDMI® Stereo 3D Packed Frame


The HDMI® 1.4a specification provides a method to support Stereo 3D display
devices. This specification provides a mechanism for the source device, in
this case the GPU, to convey frame polarity information, while maintaining full
resolution. The majority of stereo 3D TVs released in the market since 2009 support
the HDMI® 1.4a specification. Today, monitors support stereo 3D through HDMI®.


Similar to AMD’s quad buffer described in the preceding section, every stereo
image pair is assembled into a standard format known as a packed frame. The GPU
creates a buffer that is twice the height of the resolution of the frame, with active
space in between. As per the specification, the top half of the packed frame is
reserved for the left eye view, while the bottom is reserved for the right eye view.


After both frames are packed into one double-height frame, the GPU will then send
it over the HDMI® link as a packed frame. Once the TV receives this packed frame,
it is then unpacked and typically presented to the viewer in a frame sequential or
page flipped manner. Since the polarity of each frame is known, the display can
reliably control the emitter to send the correct signal to the shutter glasses.


The Radeon™ HD 7700-7900 Series GPUs are the first in the world to support all of
these packed frame 3D modes:


> New - 1920x1080 @ 60Hz/Eye ( 120Hz total )

> 1920x1080 @ 24Hz/Eye ( 48Hz total )
> 1280x720 @ 60Hz/Eye ( 120Hz total )
> 1280x720 @ 50Hz/Eye ( 100Hz total )


The first mode listed above (1920x1080 @ 60Hz/Eye) is very critical to gamers who want to play games
in stereo 3D. With the 3GHz HDMI® speed supported by the Radeon™ HD 7700-7900 Series GPUs,
higher frame rates (up to 60Hz/Eye) at Full HD resolution can now be transmitted to the display device
resulting in smooth and responsive game-play.
Another feature enabled by 3GHz HDMI® speed is
support for 4kx2k resolutions, which will be discussed later.


This looks pretty straightforward, eh? Not so much, since I've still got one big question: does that mean it will work like that on future displays, with newer HDMI chips or all the current and previous HDMI 1.4 displays we have and had on the market?

If anyone can shed a light on this matter, plz, make yourself noted! Thanks!
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post #2 of 16 Old 12-08-2012, 06:21 PM
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I'm pretty sure that 3GHz bandwidth and 1080@120 must be supported by both sides - videocard AND display (projector). So I don't think you'll be able to play with projectors existing to date.
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post #3 of 16 Old 12-10-2012, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, thats what I fear. But it does sound weird, doesn't it? I mean, what would I profit from it if only future displays will make use of it? Considering those future displays will probably have a new HDMI interface to support the 1080p @60fps 3D?

I think Im going to email AMD...
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post #4 of 16 Old 12-12-2012, 04:51 AM
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It's not that weird. Graphics card manufacturers don't wait for TV manufacturers to upgrade their inputs. They have to be ready before TV manufacturers so that you don't end up buying a display you cannot use due to the lack of source.
Ati hoped that monitor and TV manufacturers would release compatible displays quickly in order to break Nvidia's monopoly in the PC gaming market with a flood of universal displays. unfortunately it didn't happen since only Samsung provided a few monitors, and they used DisplayPort to get stereo 1080p60, these monitor's hdmi inputs are traditional hdmi 1.4a minimum spec.

We might get some news about compatible products at CES but I wouldn't expect TVs or projectors before at least one more year.

At the moment, the only way to get stereo 1080p60 on a projection screen is with dual projectors. But that's a complicated set-up.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #5 of 16 Old 12-17-2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

At the moment, the only way to get stereo 1080p60 on a projection screen is with dual projectors. But that's a complicated set-up.
I think that s closer then we think: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=364158
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post #6 of 16 Old 12-17-2012, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I've seen that topic about dual projectors passive 3D, and that's amazing, really. If I lived in the US I would seriously consider it. But I don't, customs would rape me if I got back to Brasil with two projectors with me. eek.gif

It's so frustrating, why would AMD even include those DisplayPorts even NOTHING supports 'em? And come on, it's been like a year since the HD 7970's are out, how come there are no HDMI 1.4 3GHz displays as of yet!?!?!
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post #7 of 16 Old 12-20-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanderdvd View Post

I think that s closer then we think: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=364158
It's a nice converter to do console or BluRay. It's a shame it doesn't do framepacking 1080p60 for PCs, I'd have bought it.
I hope they'll upgrade it.
There is a converter that does stereo 1080p60 through DVI-DL or DisplayPort 1.1a from a chinese manufacturer, and it claims 1080p120Hz demultiplexing with Nvidia 3D Vision compatibility, but it's over 3000$, that's a bit outside of my budget
http://www.mviewtech.com/listen.asp?ProdId=111025104433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nachmanowicz View Post

I've seen that topic about dual projectors passive 3D, and that's amazing, really. If I lived in the US I would seriously consider it. But I don't, customs would rape me if I got back to Brasil with two projectors with me. eek.gif
It's so frustrating, why would AMD even include those DisplayPorts even NOTHING supports 'em? And come on, it's been like a year since the HD 7970's are out, how come there are no HDMI 1.4 3GHz displays as of yet!?!?!
There are a number of advantages to DP : it's smaller (especially it's mini-DP variant which laptop manufacturers love, especially Apple), it's more consumer friendly than DVI's huge plug with screws, it has no royalties, and it can go much further than DVI-DL will ever go (DVI upgrades will never be standardized since VESA decided to make DP as the new computer connector). DP also supports sound and multi-stream hub and daisy chaining.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #8 of 16 Old 12-20-2012, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I do enjoy the idea of Display Port, the problem is the support. Monitors and PJ's with Display Port plugs are so rare, and I dont think there's any TV with it! Even the projector's I've seen that support it are all for professional use, 8k lumens stuff.

So yeah, Display Port, right now, is something basically only supported by a few non consumer products. What is it that prevents big manufacturers to support DP? Oh lawd!
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post #9 of 16 Old 12-21-2012, 05:43 AM
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Display Port is not a breakthrough technology for the consumer market, even though it's better than DVI, it only provides minor improvements for 99%, mostly ergonomics (smaller cable, single cable for both video and audio) and Hdmi has a strong presence due to it's monopoly in the TV market.
The transition takes time, similar to the transition between VGA and DVI. There are already quite a few manufacturers using DP : Apple started 2 years ago and now only uses DP (2D screens only). HP also uses DP a lot (2D screens), they have had DP monitors for at least 3 years. Samsung started last year on their 3D monitors. These sound like quite big manufacturers to me.
Then about why no 1080p60 3D, there' also Nvidia which pushes it's proprietary 3D Vision and wants to delay the use of DP as much as it can in order to keep it's hold over the PC market.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #10 of 16 Old 12-21-2012, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah nVidia can do it, but only on select monitors, using the dual DVI, right? Im not much into gaming on a monitor really, I like the experience a lot better on a TV or projector.

I heard Samsung adopted the DP because it kinda had an argument wioth nVidia about the 3D equipment supply, nVidia is really an as*hole about that sort of thing.
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post #11 of 16 Old 01-20-2013, 02:46 AM
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Any news about it? I have the same question now, my specs are the following:
GTX 680 single graphics card
Panasonic 50 GT50 Full HD TV

So the TV has one 1.4 HDMI input and I have the same 1.4 HDMI cable. Is there any way to play 1080P@60FPS in 3D mode? (Still don't have the 3D glasses so haven't tried it yet)
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post #12 of 16 Old 01-20-2013, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salvatuon View Post

Any news about it? I have the same question now, my specs are the following:
GTX 680 single graphics card
Panasonic 50 GT50 Full HD TV

So the TV has one 1.4 HDMI input and I have the same 1.4 HDMI cable. Is there any way to play 1080P@60FPS in 3D mode? (Still don't have the 3D glasses so haven't tried it yet)
1 - You have an Nvidia card. The GTX 680 is hardware capable but the nvidia drivers limit 3D through hdmi to 1080p24 or 720p60. You cannot use 1080p60 framepacking until nvidia makes an official announcement and updates it's 3DTV play drivers for this specific purpose.
2 - There is no mention about it anywhere on the panasonic website, and I didn't find anything in the online manual. IT is safe to assume your TV doesn't support 1080p60 frame packing.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #13 of 16 Old 01-22-2013, 12:47 AM
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@BlackShark
Thanks for reply. By the way do we lose any resolution or quality in 1080P60 framepacking mode and will there be any significant difference between 1080P and maxed out 720P for PC gaming? Have you experienced the both modes to tell us the exact difference between them?
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post #14 of 16 Old 01-22-2013, 08:16 AM
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The whole point of 1080p60 framepacking is to get both the high resolution of 1080p and the high framerate of 60 frames per second at the same time. This should provide the highest quality possible on 1080p panels.
Is there a difference between 1080p and 720p ? Yes, it's the same quality difference as between 1080p and 720p in 2D. I have sometimes experienced the difference on my (1080p) Dual-projector system by setting the games to run at 720p. The upscaling is visible and makes the picture significantly more blurry than it should be.

It is widely known that the quality of a 720p picture is very different between native 720p displays and 1080p displays which require upscaling. Since most of us have 1080p displays, 720p usually looks like crap and half-resolution 1080p (side by side or checkerboard) often looks better than 720p framepacking due to the way the scaling process works.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #15 of 16 Old 01-26-2013, 01:52 AM
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Hi again, here is the answer I got from HDMI representative via email:

"Hello and thank you for an excellent question. The HDMI 1.4 specification did indeed make an allowance in its 3D subset for 1080p @ 60fps. However it is not mandated and to operate requires for all deivces in the chain (ie; video card & TV, in your case) to support bandwidth/data rate of at least 297MHz/8.91Gbps. To date all devices have typically only supported 225MHz/6.75Gbps, hence the operational restriction to just 1080p24-3D for movies and 720p60-3D for gaming. For higher frame rate, as requried for gaming, a lower resoltiuon is required to fit within the products’ available bandwidth. Something’s got to give.

As a standards organisation HDMI cannot comment specifically on individual models, but I would expect this restriction to also apply with your stated gear, at both source and sink. Only when new generation sources/video cards and HDTVs come to market with the new 300MHz silicon (HDMI transmitters & receivers) will you be able to employ 1080p60-3D. Same for 4K/UltraHD. For the record, this is precisely why the use of HDMI version numbers in reference to products is a non-compliant practice, as it is clearly misleading and uninformative. Only the listing of specific supported feartures in any given product can be deemed as truly informative. "


The answer is provided to you as a courtesy of David Meyer. You can follow David at @dm_kordz on Twitter.
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post #16 of 16 Old 01-26-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Salvatuon, that settles it for good!

btw: =(
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