3D blu-ray + hdmi switching on an Onkyo 806 (getting mixed info) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 12-27-2012, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm new to 3D content ( just picked up a panny GT50 ), and just trying to read up on the subject, but I'm getting mixed messages on whether my receiver (Onkyo 806) is a problem or not. Onkyo reps have said in various forums that the 806 cannot support 3d because "It's an hdmi 1.3 device", but a friend of mine has that receiver and says it works fine for him. If what I've read about hdmi cables is true (it's not about version numbers, it's about standard vs high speed), then Onkyo's reasoning doesn't totally make sense to me (since you can have a high speed 1.3 cable).

Does anyone have some more detailed info on this? Is my friend possibly getting a sub-par signal, or is there a difference in 3D types (i've seen the terms 'full frame' and 'sbs') where one is supported and the other not? Just trying to separate the truth from the marketing bs here.
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post #2 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 09:16 AM
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There are two problems with passing Frame Packed 3D (the type output by 3D Blu-Ray players) through your receiver... one is related to HDMI 1.3 vs. 1.4, and the other is not... neither is related to bandwidth (as can be the case with HDMI cables).

1.) The audio signal on a Frame Packed 3D output is in a different place than a standard 2D output... HDMI 1.3 receivers don't know where to look for the audio signal.

2.) Your particular AVR has video processing that, even when "disabled" is still active and interacting with the image being passed through. Each 60hz frame of a Frame Packed 3D output is made up of two full-resolution images (i.e. left eye and right eye, stacked one on top of the other with a black line separating them, totaling a frame size of 1920 x 2205. The video processing in your AVR can not handle output of this frame size/resolution as it is not a standard resolution it recognizes.

If you were able to completely disable/bypass your AVRs video processing (some AVRs can, yours can not), basically turning it into a electro-mechanical HDMI switch, you might be able to pass a Frame Packed 3D signal through to your display. You would still need a secondary cable connection (Optical or Digital Coax) for audio and, as such, you would lose the ability to pass bit-stream TrueHD and DTS-HD Master as well as Multichannel LPCM to the AVR, defaulting to core DTS and/or re-encoded DD.

None of the above applies to Side-by-Side and Top-Bottom 3D formats, since they pack both left and right eye into the standard 1080p/1080i/720p frame, but this results in some loss of resolution when processed into full left/right eye frames by the display. SBS and TB streams are HDMI 1.3 compliant in all ways including audio. It's quite likely this is the method your friend is using, whether it's 3D from a PC, broadcast source (Cable, Satellite, etc), or Panasonic Blu-Ray player.

I'm currently passing SBS through my Onkyo NR1007 (which has the same HDMI 1.3 and video processing limitations as your SR806) from a Panasonic BD player with no problems... my motivation is different (long in-wall/ceiling HDMI cable not capable of passing frame-packed 3D), but the implementation is the same. It's a completely workable solution if you can't manage another workaround (separate HDMI switch and Optical/Coax for audio). You will need a Panasonic BD player to do so with BD discs as they are the only brand with SBS output... you can get the BDT220 refurbished from CowBoom right now for $60 + 15% off with the coupon code "Celebrate15" (came out to $55 shipped with tax for me).

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post #3 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm, thanks for the info. I read that some bd players support 3d have dual hdmi out so you can hook up one I irect to display and one through the avr for lossless. would that work?

If so d you know one I could get for the same price? (under 100 is great, but may consider more if need be) . For all my 2d bd playing + features I use the PS3 which has been adequate for me, so I don't need anything too fancy. just care about picture quality and ability to bitstream lossless audio formats.
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post #4 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 12:37 PM
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A Blu-Ray player with Dual HDMI outputs would also work. That said, most are NOT inexpensive. Current models include the Sony S790 ($230), Panasonic BDT500 ($330), Pioneer Elite 62FD ($399), Oppo BDP-103 ($499), BDP-95 ($799), and BDP-105 ($999). Discontinued models include the Panasonic BDT310, BDT300/BDT350, Samsung C7900, and possibly a few others I'm not able to think of (I think Cambridge Audio makes some players that use the same OEM design as Oppo).

The absolute cheapest you're likely to find a Dual-HDMI player is the Panasonic BDT310 on Cowboom for $104 + tax after the "Celebrate15" coupon code, but that's pre-owned with some scuffs. The BDT310 does have some Netflix playback issues, but you mentioned using the PS3 for 2D and streaming anyway.

This is an IMHO, but I wouldn't spend a lot of extra money just to maintain Lossless Audio for 3D content... or any content for that matter. With mid range equipment (an assumption I'm making purely based on your AVR, you can fill in the rest of your system if you like) you're not going to hear a difference between DTS-HD Master and the high bitrate DTS Core track. Personally, I would send HDMI video from the PS3 directly to the display, use TOSLINK for audio from the PS3 to the AVR, and call it a day... the only added cost will be a TOSLINK cable for $2-$3 from Monoprice or Amazon. The only practical loss you're going to see is the DTS-HD Master light not lighting up on your AVR.

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post #5 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot, I appreciate you taking the time to break all of this down for me. After your last post I was looking around and thinking about maybe just getting a S790, but I will think about what you said about lossless audio on my equipment.. You are right, my setup is probably low/mid range as far as audio, but since lossless audio is supported I figured I should take advantage. My speakers are all polk (rti A5s, A6 center, and fxi a6 rear), + the Onkyo, no separate amp at the moment although i was thinking about getting one of the emotivas. You think that equipment doesn't really benefit from the lossless formats? I guess this isn't the section for it, but just wondering what you think I am missing to really get the benefit?

Back on topic- you mentioned something about panasonic blu-ray players doing sbs or top/bottom. That may be the issue with my friend, I know he had a panasonic player (DMP-BDT100, in fact he's not using it anymore and offered it to me for free). He's now using a HTPC he built himself, so maybe it does the same? I didn't realize there would be this much variation to everything; but again you have been very helpful, thanks.
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post #6 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 01:30 PM
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In some fairly informal testing, I could barely hear the slightest differences on a system consisting of B&W CT Series speakers driven by all McIntosh electronics. I can hear absolutely ZERO difference in my own system consisting of an Onkyo NR1007 and either Swans Diva speakers (recently replaced) or Sonance THX-LCR speakers. I'd say your Onkyo/Polk system is probably right in line with mine.

If your friend hat a Panasonic BD player and is now using HTPC, I'd say there's a good chance he's using either SBS or possibly Frame Sequential 120hz in the case of the HTPC. Do you know what his display is?

Since he offered you the BDT100 for free, you could continue using the PS3 for 2D with Lossless Audio over HDMI to the AVR and then use the BDT100 purely for 3D with TOSLINK audio to the AVR... or use the BDT100 for SBS 3D and Lossless Audio over HDMI to the AVR. Either way, having the BDT100 and PS3 in your system simultaneously would give you several possible configurations/combinations.

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post #7 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

Since he offered you the BDT100 for free, you could continue using the PS3 for 2D with Lossless Audio over HDMI to the AVR and then use the BDT100 purely for 3D with TOSLINK audio to the AVR... or use the BDT100 for SBS 3D and Lossless Audio over HDMI to the AVR. Either way, having the BDT100 and PS3 in your system simultaneously would give you several possible configurations/combinations.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking since it would be a pain to have to switch the ps3 setup every time I switch between 3D and 2D. Not that it would be THAT often, but still better not to have to touch anything. Since you mentioned those 2 configurations for the panasonic, am I correct in assuming that the player has a setting where I can choose frame packed vs SBS? My worry there was that you were saying those panasonic players do SBS only, so I'd be losing some resolution if I went with that option. If I can choose either, then frame packed + TOSLINK is probably the way I'll go.
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post #8 of 10 Old 12-28-2012, 08:48 PM
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Which method just depends on preferences and priorities. I've found SBS image quality to be acceptable but would have done Frame Packed + Toslink had my in-wall/ceiling HDMI cable had the bandwidth to support it.

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post #9 of 10 Old 12-29-2012, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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sorry, I wasn't clear- I didn't mean which one should I go with, I meant that it sounded like you were saying I could do either frame packed or sbs with the panasonic player, so I thought maybe I could choose which type of delivery format is used in the options or something.

I guess I'm still a little confused about that part- I thought 3d blu-ray was always frame packed, and other sources like tv etc used the sbs or top/bottom method. Were you talking about sources other than blu-ray from the panasonic player (3d mkv files or something?) for sbs, or can you choose to play a blu-ray in sbs?
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post #10 of 10 Old 12-29-2012, 08:58 PM
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Sorry I wasn't clear. You can do either with the Panasonic player. It is capable of outputting frame packed (called "Full HD" in the menu) or SBS. Panasonic are the only players that can output SBS for 3D Blu-Ray discs.

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