Dealing with headaches and eye strain with 3D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 04-08-2013, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently went through a purchase decision for my 3rd PJ. I had decided early on that I really couldn't afford/didn't find value in paying extra for 3D and began the process without consideration for the added dimension. However, as I did a little more research I recognized that there were some capable 3D PJs in my price range. I ended up getting a deal on a PJ that is more than capable when it comes to 3D (Acer9500BD). I even got a Sony 790 so I could continue to use my existing Onkyo AVR (805) that I love.

I am beyond thrilled about the depth and quality of 3D in home environments. I never thought a $700 PJ could be so sharp and impressive with 3D given some of the problems I have had in theaters. I found myself running out and buying/ordering a long list of 3D blu-rays. However, after watching a few over the weekend I have contracted a significant headache and it has been slow to dissipate.

I have three VERY nice sets of glasses. Is there anything else I can do to reduce headache issues? Someone made reference to proper set up and calibration. I feel like I have done suitable calibration but have no comprehension if there are extra steps for 3D calibration as I have no experience in this arena.

Will I grow accustomed to it? I love my HT updates but I am concerned about this one moving forward. I love my 3D but I don't want to love it the way an addict loves his H.
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post #2 of 23 Old 04-08-2013, 06:47 PM
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Most likely the problem will go away as your eyes/brain get used to viewing stereoscopic 3D. It's also possible that something else entirely caused your headache, especially if it didn't go away after ceasing viewing.
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post #3 of 23 Old 04-09-2013, 05:18 AM
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One particular thing is to ensure that 3D objects at their most "distant" don't exceed your pupillary distance....wider than that and you're going to have eye strain at the very least. Measure your PD, find a scene with really strong depth, pick a distant object as a reference. The take the glasses off, and measure the distance between the two images of that object - it should not exceed your PD. If it does, adjust the 3D depth setting in your PJ until its just below.

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post #4 of 23 Old 04-09-2013, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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bd2003,

I don't understand what you are saying. After looking up "pupillary distance" my understanding is that it is a measurement in MM between the middle of each iris. How would anything not exceed 65mm?

3d depth setting? I don't see this anywhere.

Thx
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post #5 of 23 Old 04-09-2013, 10:09 PM
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I don't think you'll find ANYTHING in a 3d movie going over 65mm or getting close to it. Thats the whole problem 3D movies have, they have little depth and they don't compensate (that i know of) for home viewing when they make the blu-ray disks. I was investigating crosstalk on a 55" 3DTV with the movie Tron running. The most separation i could find was a half inch (1.27cm).
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post #6 of 23 Old 04-10-2013, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand. 65mm is 2.5". My screen is 119". EVERYTHING is >>>>>>>> 2.5".

If we are just discussing convergence concerns, etc I don't particularly care. I understand that 3D confuses the eyes, and it has caused me issues. I am trying to find out how to minimize these problems.
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post #7 of 23 Old 04-10-2013, 04:00 PM
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In real life as objects get closer to your eyes, you have to cross your eyes more and more to converge on them. As they get further and further from your eyes, your eyes uncross more and more to bring them into convergence.

There is no scenario in which your eyes should ever have to wall eye to coverge an object.

This is just geometry...

So if somehow on your screen the left eyes image is more than the pupilary distance from the right eyes image to the LEFT then you may end up going wall eyed and this will strain your eyes quickly as this is something your eyes are probably not used to ever doing.

The difficultly becomes making sure you are measuring the correct parallax because it's completely fine to have a lot of overlap in the positive parrallax direction ie the left eyes image is more than your 3 inches to the RIGHT of the right eyes image.

Basically you are trying to not create a situation your eyes would never be in naturally.

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post #8 of 23 Old 04-11-2013, 07:25 PM
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Does the 3d refresh rate make any difference ? 96Hz vs 120Hz vs 144Hz ?
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post #9 of 23 Old 04-14-2013, 06:59 PM
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You have a problem at the theater? Maybe 3D just isn't for you. There should be a setting from your 3D player to set the size of your screen. Try changing that around to see if it helps.
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post #10 of 23 Old 04-16-2013, 03:47 AM
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Percentage difference is frequently not understood, but can contribute to viewing problems if too high. The percentage difference is the difference betweenn the left and right images in relation to the screen size. Measure the distance between the maximum negative and positive parallax in the image and then calculate what percentage of the screen size that represents. Most people can tolerate 5-6% difference and some slightly more, but once images start to approach 10%D, then your eves are unable to resolve the image. This often happens when there is a lot of negative parallax as some film makers seem to feel that everything shouuld fly out of the screen at you. The effort of tryng to resolve these images and changing focus from high negative to positive can quickly induce headaches.

If you can reduce the difference at the projector, then you can cut down the side effects, but if the %D is too high on the disc, it may be impossible to correct. A lot of the novelty 3d films use gimmicky out of screen effects and these are often the ones that cause the most problems.

I find that quit a lot of blockbuster 2d movies give me a headache when they contain very fast scene cutting and high speed action shots, causing me to constantly change focus and eye movement. With 3d, quick changes in requirement for depth perception can have the same effect although not being so obvious to the viewer. It's something that some 3d producers don't seem to appreciate fully.

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post #11 of 23 Old 04-16-2013, 05:40 AM
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There are interesting theories here but few solutions.

To coolhand:

It's very possible that 3D was not the cause of your headache. Your original post suggests that your headache lasted hours to days after viewing stereoscopic 3D. Given that longevity, it's highly unlikely that 3D was the cause. Perhaps you can clear up the time line though. Except in rare cases, nausea and headaches from 3D dissipate rapidly after ceasing viewing.

If 3D was in fact the cause, the solution is just to view it once or twice more. You just might need to get used to it. As stated before, the 3D effect in movies is very weak and should never present much of a hurdle.
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-23-2013, 07:51 AM
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you could also be one of a very large number of people who get eye strain and headaches from the use of shutter glasses. the flicker may be the entire cause, none of these other issues. even 3d in most theaters with "passive" glasses have flicker in the image on screen as the projector switches between left and right images using a filter wheer. only a dual projection setup is trully passive and has the least amount of eye strain,

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1280393/the-ultimate-3d-projection-system-a-practical-discussion-thread

read this thread. you dont have to spend a lot of money to build an ultimate passive 3D system that has no eye strain.

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post #13 of 23 Old 04-28-2013, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

you could also be one of a very large number of people who get eye strain and headaches from the use of shutter glasses.

Really? What is the actual number?

Also, eye strain is caused by using 3D glasses in general, and has nothing to do with active vs passive. Regardless, I am certain that it is a very small percentage compared to the general population, and not a "very large number of people" who use active glasses instead of passive. There's enough FUD being spread already without your contribution.

As to the OP's question, I recommend limiting your viewing sessions until your eye muscles adapt.

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post #14 of 23 Old 04-28-2013, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Really? What is the actual number?

Also, eye strain is caused by using 3D glasses in general, and has nothing to do with active vs passive. Regardless, I am certain that it is a very small percentage compared to the general population, and not a "very large number of people" who use active glasses instead of passive. There's enough FUD being spread already without your contribution.

As to the OP's question, I recommend limiting your viewing sessions until your eye muscles adapt.


there is no exact number but it is a known issue . eye strain is caused by several factors in 3d systems, energy imbalance between eyes, flicker rates of both shutter glasses and filter wheel type 3d projectors and the content itself depending on how it was shot or processed for effect.
of course active glasses are in wider home use because its the easiest to implement. many have trouble with 3d no matter what the system type is. i spent several years developing cinema 3d systems with hundreds of hours in test theaters. we ran test groups of hundreds of people viewing systems and taking polls on the feel with the aim of reducing eye strain and improving the performance, and it was clear that shutter glasses have some drawbacks one being eye strain over long viewing sessions. nothing wrong at all with the tech and i find it a good method but when the issue of eye strain came up i offered my opinion backed with many years of testing. some peoples eyes will never adapt, studies ive seen claim anywhere from 10-20 percent of the population have issues viewing 3d in general, from what ive seen that may be high but the option of the least eye strain 3D being suggested to the OP was intended to help not be FUD whatever that is.

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post #15 of 23 Old 04-28-2013, 10:29 PM
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many, myself included get eye fatigue after about 2 hours of shutter glasses 3D viewing. I can watch same content all day on my passive 3D monitor. It may be that you are sensitive to the shutter effect and will need to restrict your viewing time like I do when using shutter glasses. I use a Sony VPL VW90es projector. I edit 3D for hours on end with a 32" Vizio passive.
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post #16 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 09:18 AM
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I have been using shutter glasses for years and I've suffered no eye strain from "flicker".

As you posted, quoted below: "3D in general"

" studies ive seen claim anywhere from 10-20 percent of the population have issues viewing 3d in general, from what ive seen that may be high"

You mention several possible reasons for eyestrain, and then somehow conclude that active glasses are the culprit.

I submit that if you didn't get headaches from the flicker of CRT sets (60Hz), you're not going to get headaches from active glasses, as they cycle twice as fast (120Hz).

Back in the day, before HD 3D, there were 30Hz systems, so one can understand flicker being an issue then.

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post #17 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

many, myself included get eye fatigue after about 2 hours of shutter glasses 3D viewing. I can watch same content all day on my passive 3D monitor. It may be that you are sensitive to the shutter effect and will need to restrict your viewing time like I do when using shutter glasses. I use a Sony VPL VW90es projector. I edit 3D for hours on end with a 32" Vizio passive.

Again, how much is "many"? Your many is someone else's few. Without real data, there is no point in making blanket statements.

To be fair, I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to keep this objective.

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post #18 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 10:13 AM
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If you google eye strain from 3D or eye strain from shutter glasses you will get all kinds of data and opinions, there are no definitive numbers. you may not be trying to have an argument but your being argumentative.

Just because you use shutter glasses and do not feel strain doesn’t mean it s not real for others.

You miss quote me, it did not say or conclude shutter glasses are the only culprit, I stated that there are many causes of eye strain in 3D in general including some passive systems as well as the content.

Glasses that work at 60-120hz do not change the fact that the content is at 24hz

your quote... "The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"- .. you are asking for the reports of others when you ask for exact numbers.

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post #19 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

Just because you use shutter glasses and do not feel strain doesn’t mean it s not real for others.
(Thus, my point) just because you have a problem doesn't mean the problem is widespread or caused by what you claim
Quote:
Glasses that work at 60-120hz do not change the fact that the content is at 24hz

so it is logically more likely that the content causes flicker than it is the glasses
Quote:
your quote... "The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"- .. you are asking for the reports of others when you ask for exact numbers.

Actually, I asked for hard data, but all I've gotten was the anecdotal reports of others.

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post #20 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

and just because you have a problem doesn't mean the problem is widespread or caused by what you claim
so it is logically more likely that the content causes flicker than it is the glasses


Actually, I asked for hard data, but all I've gotten was the anecdotal reports of others.

I never said i had a problem with shutter glasses, in fact i stated i thought they were a good technology. you are not logical, its nice to meet someone so all knowing, i guess all of the engineers and end users are wrong and you are right unless we provide you with some hard data on something that is experiential.
It is people like you on threads that make discussions so distasteful ill leave you to your own expertise

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post #21 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 11:43 AM
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There is no need for personal attacks. I simply disagreed with your original post and explained why.

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post #22 of 23 Old 04-29-2013, 05:00 PM
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And then there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headache

Hundreds of types, hundreds of causes of headaches. No mention of 3D. No rule that says you won't get a non-3D headache while watching 3D. But anyone who gets a headache during or after viewing 3D will blame 3D (or one aspect of it). It's not exactly illogical, it's one's best guess, but it's largely a stab in the dark.

That's not to say that various aspects of 3D don't cause headaches for some people. It's just impossible to say with one data point, the OP's one headache 3 weeks ago, what the cause is.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-01-2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airion View Post

...It's just impossible to say with one data point, the OP's one headache 3 weeks ago, what the cause is.

Exactly. One could easily argue the other side using the "very large number"* of posts like this one as examples:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

...Plus viewing 3D with the active Blue Toooth glasses I use with my 82842 Mitsubishi are so much better than using the passive glasses I use with my LG 3D LCD TV. For some reason my eyes get fatigued very quickly using the passive glasses while it takes much longer to get fatigued using the active glasses with my Mitsubishi. But I also never see any Ghosting on my Mitsubishi while I'll see ghosting on occasion with my LG.

Also please keep in mind that 3D is just an interest of mine, and I use the forums to learn and share information. I do not troll the forums for customers in order to sell optics for passive 3D systems.

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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

Hi
im glad your interested in the 3d kit...the ebay account is owen by my company. you should get an answer to any question fairly quickly. we have listings for the kit you asked for as well as other packeges with demultuiplexers. if you have not gotten the projectors yet and you would like to use our optics i would reccomend a...


*"very large number"-an ambiguous and subjective term used to great effect by
a "very large number" of posters wink.gif

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