3D Projector advice and DLP-Link questions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-05-2013, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking at buying a 3D projector, and I am trying to decide which one to get. I have had an Optoma projector before, so I am looking at the HD25 or the HD25-LV, and it has gotten pretty good reviews. I am looking to spend about $1000~$1300. Are there any other projectors that are going to give me a better picture quality and better value? I was originally planning to get the HD25, but I am thinking about the -LV for the extra lumen output. Currently I will be using the projector in a living room setup, projecting about a 115" screen, so I know the HD25 would probably have sufficient brightness, but I am thinking about getting the -LV for future expansion, when I might be able to use it in a larger home theater area, or perhaps even outdoors. I figure it is better to get the -LV and turn down the brightness if not needed than to get the HD25 and it not be bright enough in the future. Also, I thought the extra brightness might be helpful with 3D viewing, which is one of my main reasons for getting the projector.

My other question is about DLP-Link. This projector has the option of going RF or DLP-Link. I have found universal DLP-Link glasses a lot cheaper than RF, and you don't have to buy an emitter, so I am leaning towards DLP-Link, but I have never seen it before. I have read that some people have issues with seeing the light flash for DLP and it effects the image, is that common with this model? Also, I am going to be projecting onto a white living room wall, not a screen, and I wanted to know if anyone has done this with DLP link, to make sure that the glasses will be able to pick up the signal without the screen.

Thanks for any help.
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this a week ago, I have had a lot of views but no responses. Would anyone be able to give me any input on selecting the proper projector? I did some more research and am pretty sure I want to go with the Optoma, but I am torn between the HD25 and the HD25-LV. Also, does anyone have DLP Link glasses that can project on a white wall without a screen and see if the DLP Link still functions properly? I would be greatly appreciative.
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 09:00 AM
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I can only guess at the DLP Link question. DLP Link is line-of-sight, so you are only synced while facing the screen. The material shouldn't matter as the white flash should still be picked up by the glasses. If you look at other light sources with the glasses on you may see some strobing effect. At $25-30 for one pair it doesn't hurt to try them out to see if you like them. The DLP Link flash tints the image on my TV, not sure if that happens with a projector. If you can't turn off DLP Link then go with the best DLP Glasses you can get - Optoma ZD 201s get great feedback around here but they are hard to find. The main concern for it working in your setting would be that you get the room dark enough. My DLP glasses aren't great on my TV during the day with the lights on. RF glasses cost more and need an emitter. They will also be better quality with no sync issues. If your DLP Link is always on you may have tinted color issues using RF glasses.

When I was looking for a projector one of the top brands was the Optoma HD33.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1470239/optoma-hd25-lv-or-hd33

Looks like the HD25-LV has a six segment color wheel, so that should minimize rainbows. Sounds like a great projector for the price. Throw distance is also critical for using a projector. Make sure you have enough space to make the image large or consider a short-throw projector.

Good luck!
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-12-2013, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Nickels55,

Thank you so much for your response. The projector will be used in a room with windows so there will be some ambient light, but it is mostly going to be a movies after dark kind of thing. I have a 3DTV already that I can use for 3D during the day or other times, the projector is more for if we have company over to watch a movie at night, or something like that. I have already factored in the throw distance, I have about 12-13 feet to project across, which will give me around a 115" screen. My wall is bigger, but it is good enough. I haven't come across any projectors with lens shift that has the other features even close to the Optoma. I am just trying to figure out whether to get the HD25 or the HD25-LV based on the brightness. I have read reviews that the HD25 does suffer from rainbow effect, which is surprising if it has a 6-segment color wheel, I didn't know that it did. However, I used to have an Optoma EP756 (still have it, but it is dead) that was a business projector by design, so I think it only had a 3 segment color wheel. I used to use it for movies and gaming all the time, and never noticed the rainbow effect before, so I must not be very susceptible. Thanks for all your input!
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post #5 of 23 Old 07-17-2013, 05:00 PM
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I just bought the HD25-LV and love it. It's my first projector, so I don't have a lot to compare it to.

I went with the LV because I plan on watching 3D movies and wanted the extra brightness to compensate for the glasses making it darker.
I switch between bright and eco mode whether watching 3d or not.
The picture is amazing and even the cheap $20 SainSonic DLP glasses look great with 3d. They just aren't that comfortable, so I'm going to order the $30 SainSonic SSZ-200DLW because they look much more comfortable. I have a dark media room, but when the door is open with ambient light coming through, it does look that good to me, the image washes out pretty quick. I'll have to do some more experimenting with eco/bright and testing light levels. I'm also projecting onto a 120" screen, so that may affect my brightness levels on the screen also.

The project has a setting where you can turn off the dlp-link if you want. It tries to send the sync signal out the 3d-sync port. You'll need an adapter to use that $50, plus the RF glasses are a little more expensive. I read somewhere that the RF don't interfere with IR remotes, but I haven't had issues controlling IR devices during 3D.

I'm quite ecstatic with the setup and never thought a project could look soooo good!
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post #6 of 23 Old 07-18-2013, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Sniper,

Thanks for the input. When using DLP-Link with the cheaper glasses, do you notice any color change because of the DLP-Link signal? I haven't been able to find it for sure, but I think I read somewhere that the HD25-LV uses red for the DLP-Link, can you verify this for me? I have heard that some glasses don't block 100% of the Link signal, causing some red tinting of the image, have you noticed this at all? Are you familiar with the rainbow effect, and if so have you noticed this? I am getting excited to order this, it is taking a lot of self control to wait to try and make the most informed decision, especially when my wife is even telling me to order it. We put our new furniture in the "movie room", and even though we have had company no one has used it because there isn't really anything else in the room.

Thanks again!
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-18-2013, 07:22 AM
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You don't need to look hard to see the effects of the DLP Link signal interfering with the picture colors. Watch the first 12 second my video showing it enabled on an HDTV:
DLP Link tint example

This is a TV not a projector, but you get the point. There is no mistaking the DLP Link signal tinting the colors when enabled. If you don't notice it than they figured out a way to fix it since 2007.

You sound like you are not susceptible to seeing rainbows so go ahead and make the purchase. That projector has all of the things in place so that even if you see rainbows on other projectors you shouldn't see them on the LV. What are you waiting for? DO IT! haha
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-18-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Nickels,

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I know that there is an effect to the picture with DLP Link enabled, I was wondering if you could still see that effect while wearing the DLP Link glasses. I have read a few reports or reviews where people said the glasses didn't completely block out the Link signal, so you still got some tinting even while wearing the glasses. What has your experience been with this? The only other thing I am trying to figure out before I order is if the LV will be too high lumen output. I think during 3D it will be fine because you lose half of the brightness, but when not in 3D I don't want the picture to be washed out from too high brightness. I am really close to ordering, probably next pay day, but I figured I would try to get as much figured out as possible by that time.
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post #9 of 23 Old 07-18-2013, 12:21 PM
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I have never seen tinted blacks using DLP Link glasses - even the cheap Ultra-Clear brand glasses makes red tinted blacks look jet black. The only time the tint remains is with IR Glasses or RF glasses (from reports, no first hand experience). Luckily you can turn off DLP Link on that projector so you have the choice of glasses. As for your concern about it being too bright when not in 3D mode the post from Sniperfromabove nailed the solution for you. He puts the lamp in Eco mode when not using 3D mode - that reduced the light output. If you want it reduced farther, you can get an ND Filter for next to nothing on Ebay. The contrast levels are supposed to be great on that projector so I wouldn't worry about washed-out highlights.
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-20-2013, 04:57 AM
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I haven't noticed any rainbow affect, but I haven't looked for it either. I'll have to search to see how to try to detect it.
I have also disabled a 'deep black' mode on the projector since it causes the fan to run a little loud. This may be less of an issue once I mount it on the ceiling, but for now, it's sitting right next to me.
I causes a very slight drop in black contrast, but still looks fine to me.
Even in high mode in a dark room the picture isn't too bright or look washed out. Not sure if that's because I'm using a "Front elastic CinemaWhite high gain fabric w/ 1.1 Gain" ?

I only reduce it to Eco mode because it still looks great, runs the fan even quieter, and the bulb is supposed to last longer.
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post #11 of 23 Old 07-22-2013, 06:30 AM
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Here is how I see a rainbow effect on my screen. I highly suggest you do not read this or go out of your way to see something that you aren't seeing. It is like when someone tells you how to spot color shifting while using 3D glasses. Once you see it you wish you never looked for it. Well, here we go, stop reading now. Wait for a dark scene as that is what makes the rainbow effect worse. Focus on the left side of the screen. Now shift your eyes from left to right. When I do this using my projector I can see a rainbow (really just red, green, and blue) very briefly as my eyes move quickly across the screen. I only see rainbows with eye movement. On my DLP with 3D glasses there is a different rainbow which is always visible due to the screen polarization angles and the angle of the glasses, this is not like the rainbow effect seen when watching movies on the big screen. If you sit back and just keep your eyes focused on one area you shouldn't see any rainbows, it is was you look around the screen during movies where it becomes visible.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/advice/HomeTheaterProjector-FAQs/ProjectorsRainbowEffect.php
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post #12 of 23 Old 08-01-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to keep you informed I finally made my purchase and went with the HD25-LV. Of course when I went to order it I noticed that they released a new model, HD25e, replacing the HD25, same cost with 2800 lumens, which makes it a much closer comparison to the HD25-LV. I still went with the LV though because for 3D and ambient light reasons I probably want the most lumens I can get. I am pretty much decided on going with DLP link glasses over RF, but I still haven't decided which ones to go with. I have seen some people swear by the Optoma, some say the SainSonic are good, as are the True Depth and Ultra Clear, by various reports. I am trying to avoid the Optoma because of the cost, but I want to get the best glasses that I can for my money also. Anyone have any advice on the best DLP link glasses?
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post #13 of 23 Old 08-01-2013, 07:34 AM
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Well, I can tell you the Ultra Clears are not the best anything except for value. They have color shifting issues and are very reflective so you can see clearly what is going on behind you. I heard lots of good things about the True Depth glasses from many people on this forum.
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post #14 of 23 Old 08-16-2013, 12:00 PM
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With Optoma projectors you can use the DLP Link glasses and 3D-RF glasses at the same time, which makes an A/B test pretty easy.

With DLP Link *on* and all glasses *off* you can see a slight bluish cast where there should be deep blacks in the image. This is caused by the visible light DLP signal. But ... you are watching 3D with no glasses, so the whole picture looks bad. With the DLP Link glasses *on* the bluish cast goes away - at least for the Optoma and Estar America DLP Link glasses - because the glasses know to hold both eyes closed during the DLP Link signal time.

With the 3D-RF glasses you can actually adjust the "duty cycle" of each lens to be open for more or less than one frame. If you want to open them for slightly more than one frame - say to eke out a lot more brightness at the cost of a little more ghosting - then you will want to turn off the DLP Link signal (from the projector menu) so that the bluish cast does not show up in your 3D-RF glasses.

Both HD-25's and both glasses options are a great value. If you are one of the few that sees flashing, then spending a little more for RF will allow you to close down that duty cycle and tune out the flashing. Having a setup that does both the real reason I use RF is that the signal is basically indestructible - I can leave the room entirely to get a snack and never see a flicker.

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post #15 of 23 Old 08-16-2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickels55 View Post

You don't need to look hard to see the effects of the DLP Link signal interfering with the picture colors. Watch the first 12 second my video showing it enabled on an HDTV:
DLP Link tint example

This is a TV not a projector, but you get the point. There is no mistaking the DLP Link signal tinting the colors when enabled. If you don't notice it than they figured out a way to fix it since 2007.

You sound like you are not susceptible to seeing rainbows so go ahead and make the purchase. That projector has all of the things in place so that even if you see rainbows on other projectors you shouldn't see them on the LV. What are you waiting for? DO IT! haha

I think you are one of the first people that has shown what the tint color looks like, I assume this is the same as people who say red flash or white flash? thanks for showing a example!
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-19-2013, 12:06 PM
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I have a lower end GT750 and use higher end Xpand DLP link glasses which we find very comfortable.. 3D performance especially accurate colors seem amazing. Not sure about the higher end Optoma 3D projectors though. I'm doing 106" screen, matte white, states 1.1 gain. The GT750 in ultra short throw and I have only a few feet from the screen on a stand.
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post #17 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently received the HD25-LV projector, and I purchased two pairs of the True Depth DLP Link glasses, and I think I am getting pretty bad rainbow effect. It creates a harshness to the picture, like it hurts your eyes when you watch it and try to focus. I talked to True Depth tech support and they told me that it is probably a problem with the rainbow effect, caused by the glasses. I have never seen rainbow effect with a 2D DLP projector, but my wife and I both see it now in 3D with the glasses. Will RF glasses be any better for rainbow effect, or does it not matter which type of glasses? I could probably get used to it if I have to, but my wife says that it hurts her eyes too much and she refused to watch it, so if I can't figure out some way to resolve the issue we won't be able to watch 3D on this projector. Anyone have any ideas?
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post #18 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 09:08 AM
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Does the projector produce the same effect in 2D operation? Surprising is your experience because most people that see rainbows in 2D on a given projector don't see them or see them to a lot lesser degree in 3D mainly because the brightness is significantly decreased in 3D.
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post #19 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 09:21 AM
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techgurudude - have you read this thread (that you started)?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1485686/problem-with-true-depth-dlp-link-glasses

They pretty clearly state that your projector is not compatible with those glasses.
Quote:
Unless the glasses are rated for 144 Hz they will not work. I have some Tru-depth glasses that worked on my HD33 but not on my HD25-LV.
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post #20 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes that is my thread as well. I contacted True Depth, their new glasses are rated for 144Hz, so they should be compatible with my projector.
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post #21 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 11:10 AM
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There are many different types of rainbows. For example, on my TV when viewing 3D through certain glasses the rainbow appears in the same spot:



This is due to a problem where the lenses have the same angle (polarization) as the DLP screen. If you rotate your head 90 degrees (sideways) the rainbow disappears. On my projector I see a different effect on dark scenes with moving objects. Like an RGB outline. Here is an example of that:


Is this what you are seeing with your glasses? You should also see this without them. If not, what are you seeing?
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post #22 of 23 Old 08-21-2013, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Nickels55,

The effect I am having is what you describe further up in this post, where you see the rainbow colors when you move your eyes quickly across the screen. I am wondering if there is more to it than that, because the glasses seem to strain our eyes, and my wife mentioned that it seemed like shiny objects in the video were hard to look at. I don't know if maybe it is rainbow effect combined with some other issue, or just rainbow effect, or something else entirely. Like I said, I have never seen any kind of rainbow discoloration in 2D.
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post #23 of 23 Old 09-18-2013, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techgurudude View Post

Nickels55,

The effect I am having is what you describe further up in this post, where you see the rainbow colors when you move your eyes quickly across the screen. I am wondering if there is more to it than that, because the glasses seem to strain our eyes, and my wife mentioned that it seemed like shiny objects in the video were hard to look at. I don't know if maybe it is rainbow effect combined with some other issue, or just rainbow effect, or something else entirely. Like I said, I have never seen any kind of rainbow discoloration in 2D.

Could you be so kind as to....

1. Pause a 3D movie on a scene with a lot of "shiny objects that were hard to look at". Preferably shiny objects that are not at screen depth - objects that are clearly a double image with the glasses off.
2. Glasses on.
3. Hold hand over one eye and then the other like you are taking an eye chart test.

And then let us know....

A. Do you see any ghosting in either eye? Is the ghost the same color as the object (or just red or just green or just blue or just white?)
B. Are other objects the same color in each individual eye as they are without the glasses on (but obviously not as bright with the glasses on.)
C. If you put the glasses on upside-down does everything suddenly look a LOT better?

If you answered YES to any of these, then a) yes, RF glasses will make you a lot happier and b) any other glasses will make your happier.

When y'all go to buy glasses do you buy one model at a time until you find a nice one or do you buy several? Restating the question, should I be offering promo codes for purchasing RF and DLP link glasses at the same time because that's what tech types want?

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