No Graphics Card Capable of outputing Full HD 3D ...or What? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-20-2014, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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For the officially supported full HD 3D, the HDMI 1.4a specification describes the frame packing format where two 1920x1080 frames are packed one above the other with a small pixel space in between, having a total frame dimension of 1920 x 2205.
Looking at the specs of even the most expensive cards available from both NVIDIA and AMD, the maximum vertical resolution that a card can output is limited to 2160 ...and ironically (but not surprisingly) only via the royalty-free Displayport (not HDMI)!

So the question is:
1. Are those who define the HDMI standard (and those who support it) so dumb, OR the nominal resolution in most graphics card's specs can be reversed in x, y dimensions (i.e 4096x2160 -> 2160x4096)? OR it is possible in software to guide the driver so that it will eliminate every other vblank signal and pack two full HD frames to the "frame packing" format?
EDIT: Any player/game/3D vision supports frame packing?


As a last resort:
2. Since some of the new cards support 4096x2160 max res, do most TVs support the optional/unofficial Full SBS format (3840x1080)?

3. Has anyone experience with the Frame Sequential (page flipping) format in full HD, in gaming? Is it supported at all?

4. Where is the 1.4b specification anyway? Is it ...a secret? confused.gif
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-21-2014, 09:20 AM
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1. close to 2nd option; it is not the vertical resolution that is limiting, it is the overall resolution.
2. (edit:) don't know.
3. Yes, with Nvidia's 3d Vision through a dual-link DVI.
4. tempted to do a let-me-google-it-for-you. HDMI's site says "available for download only by Licensed HDMI Adopters".
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post #3 of 21 Old 03-21-2014, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roussi View Post

1. close to 2nd option; it is not the vertical resolution that is limiting, it is the overall resolution.
2. (edit:) don't know.
3. Yes, with Nvidia's 3d Vision through a dual-link DVI.
4. tempted to do a let-me-google-it-for-you. HDMI's site says "available for download only by Licensed HDMI Adopters".

1. Thanks, I wish this is true, since my post, I had some positive early indications.
3. How does the monitor know which is the left and right frame? Got it, the 3D Vision IR emitter is synced with the game.
4. Thanks again, I missed that part (I was scanning the bold text that pointed to the 1.4a version). So it is a secret. I wonder if software developers are considered 'HDMI adopters' (edit: they probably have to pay... to be considered as such!).
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post #4 of 21 Old 03-21-2014, 10:37 AM
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If you want to output commercial Blu-ray 3D discs (Avatar, etc. - which use MVC frame packing) to a display from a video card in a PC, even the cheapie nVidia cards can do that. I have two home theater PCs, one using an nVidia 610. The other is a Brix PC with an i3 and Intel Graphics 4400. Both can play back regular Blu-ray 3D (1080/24p) effortlessly. I don't game, so I have no experience with that side of things. There are limitations to the HDMI 1.4a spec which limit resolution and frame rate for gaming. The new HDMI 2.0 spec may solve some of those issues for gamers.

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post #5 of 21 Old 03-21-2014, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

If you want to output commercial Blu-ray 3D discs (Avatar, etc. - which use MVC frame packing) to a display from a video card in a PC, even the cheapie nVidia cards can do that. I have two home theater PCs, one using an nVidia 610. The other is a Brix PC with an i3 and Intel Graphics 4400. Both can play back regular Blu-ray 3D (1080/24p) effortlessly. .
I want to output full HD 3D interactive content, preferably without the need of 3D Vision. Thanks for your input, so even new cheapo cards without HDMI, support full HD 3D frame packing!
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

There are limitations to the HDMI 1.4a spec which limit resolution and frame rate for gaming. The new HDMI 2.0 spec may solve some of those issues for gamers.
I've read (unofficially) that 1.4b extends 24/30 full hd 3d, to at least 50/60p.
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post #6 of 21 Old 03-24-2014, 05:37 PM
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there are some external video processors that can handle a lot of different 3d in and out formats using DVI-D , HDMI and Display port. and at 60 to 120 hz for gamers. i have a couple of these for stereo 3d gaming.. im using projectors though as i want 120"+ stereo 3d

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post #7 of 21 Old 03-25-2014, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by motorman45 View Post

there are some external video processors that can handle a lot of different 3d in and out formats using DVI-D , HDMI and Display port. and at 60 to 120 hz for gamers. i have a couple of these for stereo 3d gaming.. im using projectors though as i want 120"+ stereo 3d
Thanks, I know about those converters (BTW stereo 3D in 120" must be awesome!) I meant without the need of additional hardware or software, in cases where a viewer already has a 3D TV or 3D monitor which includes a set of glasses (and emitters if active). In those cases no one should need 3D vision, 3Dplay, Tri-def or whatever, as long as the video player, the game, or software application can output a satisfying compatible 3D format.
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post #8 of 21 Old 03-25-2014, 12:03 PM
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you are right , one should not need 3dvision or any other hardware. have you looked at tridef ? the ignition driver is a very good interface for a pc based game to put out stereo 3d. no extra hardware needed other than a decent graphics card and a 3d display.... some programs or games may need the interface software to be stereo 3d others would not..
what are you planning on doing.
and yes 120" passive stereo 3d with dual projectros is awsome gaming. no flicker no strain bright and high frame rates..

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post #9 of 21 Old 03-26-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I have already implemented some stereo formats, so I won't need TriDef. Currently I'm trying Frame Sequential. It seems a very straightforward and unintrusive format for PC users, but with no flags to ensure left-right sync in all cases. (It's not a game, but I can't say more about the project at this time, but I'll probably ask for feedback after it is finished).
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post #10 of 21 Old 03-26-2014, 02:01 PM
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sounds interesting. ive set up large live 3d before using a dual video camera rig for capture and dual projection for display. VR systems are cool smile.gif

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post #11 of 21 Old 04-02-2014, 03:04 PM
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All DLP projectors are Frame Sequential 120Hz
Frame Sequential is the only "Full" 3D giving you a full frame per eye. That's why they came up with all those cockamamie SBS, T&B, interlaced etc because of bandwidth limitations. It is the HDMI chips in the device that can't handle the required bandwidth for 1920 x 1080P 60Hz per eye (minimum Hz for smooth gaming). VGA has NO bandwidth limitation and almost all Monitors/HDTVs have one but nobody uses it rolleyes.gif HDMI is ONLY necessary for watching BDs. Games could care less.
A 720P/120Hz DLP projector will provide more video information to your brain per second than 1080P 3D projector because the 1080P is just chugging along causing motion sickness.

Also:
http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/how-many-pixels-are-too-many/#!Cynxi
http://www.3duniversity.net/page.aspx?page=33
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-02-2014, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

All DLP projectors are Frame Sequential 120Hz:
Except those that are Field Sequential like the Sharp PG-LW2000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

VGA has NO bandwidth limitation and almost all Monitors/HDTVs have one but nobody uses it rolleyes.gif

Everything has a bandwidth limitation, the DACs on the GPU that provide the VGA signal have an upper limit to the samples/sec they can convert to analog, the VGA cable also has a limit on the higher frequency you can pass through it, not to mention the response of the ADCs on the digital display/projector that will receive the VGA signal and will have to do a lossy convertion back to digital, or the frequency response of the analog circuitry of a CRT monitor/projector.

If you start increasing e/g the frame-rate gradually, at some point you'll notice that the image blurs gradually too. There is always a physical limit. The difference is, that digital circuits tend to stop working suddenly, not gradually and an artificial limit is usually set to a point lower than the physical limit of the chips for various reasons, ranging from preventing destruction of the chips, up to marketing reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

It is the HDMI chips in the device that can't handle the required bandwidth for 1920 x 1080P 60Hz per eye (minimum Hz for smooth gaming)
Actually, HDMI 1.4b does support 1080p 3D @120HZ (60hz per eye). It has the exact same bandwidth requirements as the Frame Sequential (at 120HZ) -only the blanking signal structure differs (frame packing).
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-02-2014, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SoToS View Post

Except those that are Field Sequential like the Sharp PG-LW2000.
Everything has a bandwidth limitation, the DACs on the GPU that provide the VGA signal have an upper limit to the samples/sec they can convert to analog, the VGA cable also has a limit on the higher frequency you can pass through it, not to mention the response of the ADCs on the digital display/projector that will receive the VGA signal and will have to do a lossy convertion back to digital, or the frequency response of the analog circuitry of a CRT monitor/projector.

If you start increasing e/g the frame-rate gradually, at some point you'll notice that the image blurs gradually too. There is always a physical limit. The difference is, that digital circuits tend to stop working suddenly, not gradually and an artificial limit is usually set to a point lower than the physical limit of the chips for various reasons, ranging from preventing destruction of the chips, up to marketing reasons.
Actually, HDMI 1.4b does support 1080p 3D @120HZ (60hz per eye). It has the exact same bandwidth requirements as the Frame Sequential (at 120HZ) -only the blanking signal structure differs (frame packing).

I'm gald you finally read up on 1.4B (#4 your 1st post )
#3) I've been gaming for years @120Hz Frame Sequential on a 720P 3D projector waiting for 1080P 120Hz FS. I hear they are very expensive. Gaming in Frame Sequential is nothing new. Problem with HDTV and HDMI is they don't care about gamers. All they care about is Content Protection which has nothing to do with games. You can game all you want in 3D with VGA if the display is capable. There is no Legally Imposed bandwidth restriction with VGA as opposed to HDMI. There are Native 3D games that do frame sequential. Actually Frame Sequential has nothing to do with the game.

Edit: Feild Sequential - 1940s tech sorta like interlaced. Proably why that Sharp Projector you posted only does 3D @ 1024x768.
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post #14 of 21 Old 04-03-2014, 04:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

I'm gald you finally read up on 1.4B (#4 your 1st post )
Unfortunately I haven't read it. This is mentioned in Wiki HDMI article. I don't know how they got the information, but it is true that HDMI 1.4 has all the necessary bandwidth.
If it didn't, existing 1080p@120hz Frame Sequential for monitors and some TVs eg via 3D vision, wouldn't be possible. Also HDMI 1.4a in "Secondary 3D Video Format Timings" mentions "1920x1080p @ 119.88/120Hz (Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom)" which is exactly the same bandwidth. In sort, Frame Sequential 1080p@120hz has the same bandwidth and information as Frame Packing 1080p@60hz (in 1.4b).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Gaming in Frame Sequential is nothing new. Problem with HDTV and HDMI is they don't care about gamers. All they care about is Content Protection which has nothing to do with games.
That's true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

Edit: Feild Sequential - 1940s tech sorta like interlaced. Proably why that Sharp Projector you posted only does 3D @ 1024x768.
You're talking about PG-LX2000. The one I mentioned (PG-LW2000) has a native resolution of WXGA (1280 x 800) / 16:10.
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post #15 of 21 Old 04-03-2014, 03:55 PM
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1280 x 800 native is in 2D
http://www.sharpusa.com/ForBusiness/PresentationProducts/ProfessionalProjectors/PGLW2000.aspx
The specs from Sharp read 3D Support - 120Hz 1024 x 768 or 800 x 600

Edit: The Vcard I bought 3yrs ago (AMD 7970) is capable but there just aren't any displays...

DisplayPort 1.2
Maximum resolution: 4096x2160 @ 60 Hz per display
Multi-stream
21.6 Gbps bandwidth (HBR2)
High bit-rate audio
Quad HD/4K/UHDTV display support
1080p60 stereoscopic 3D (Frame Sequential Format

HDMI® (With 4K, 3D, x.v.Color™ and Deep Color)
Maximum resolution: 4096x2160 @ 30 Hz
1080p30 stereoscopic 3D (Packed Frame Format)
Quad HD/4K/UHDTV video display suppor
Dual-link DVI with HDCP
Maximum resolution: 2560x160
VGA
Maximum resolution: 2048x1536
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post #16 of 21 Old 04-03-2014, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob7145 View Post

1280 x 800 native is in 2D
http://www.sharpusa.com/ForBusiness/PresentationProducts/ProfessionalProjectors/PGLW2000.aspx
The specs from Sharp read 3D Support - 120Hz 1024 x 768 or 800 x 600

...While the specs from the PG-LW2000 Operation -Manual read:
3D Supported Signals:
1280 × 720 @ 120hz, and
1280 x 800 @120 at reduced blanking


which is clearly verified by their Markeing Brochure

...they are not so sharp after all!

So the wrong 3D support info is spread along all their websites, imagine the damage the admin has done to the company!
Suspiciously, the manual has been removed! biggrin.gif
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post #17 of 21 Old 04-04-2014, 08:43 PM
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Wow, Devil in the details.
Any way, best of luck with your project. I'm interest to see it!
I know a couple of people with dedicated dual projector passive 3D gaming rigs that are very happy with them. Just have to align them and keep them aligned.
The little Acer 5360 I have is small and portable so I can move it to other rooms, take to friends, take on trips or shine it on the side of the house outside. Watching a Nascar race is pretty awesome on a projector as are Flight Sims and Racing games.
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post #18 of 21 Old 04-05-2014, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, if everything goes well, you probably will!
I am a fan of projectors too.
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post #19 of 21 Old 04-05-2014, 07:50 PM
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The computer games have been 3D for like 15yrs now as opposed to 2D sidescrollers. They will do any kind of Stereoscopic 3D you want but just need a driver to get the computer to draw 2 images from slightly different view and alternate each image. Except the Native 3D games that only require a 3D display! smile.gif
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post #20 of 21 Old 04-22-2014, 08:39 PM
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Hi,

 

I wished I had made my homework before purchasing the Sharp LW2000 projector. It was cheap at B&H ($380) with good resolution (WXGA). the "3D ready" convinced me.

 

Unfortunately, it acccepts only field sequential 3D, which means I can't connect it to the blu ray player. 

 

I have searched the internet and found several 3d converters for "frame sequential" DLP projectors but none for the old "field sequential" format.

 

Does anyone have a clue how I could make the projector work with the blu ray player. If I do not find a solution I will sell it!!! 

 

thanks in advance,

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post #21 of 21 Old 04-24-2014, 08:31 PM
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Hi, Yes there are 2 kinds of 3D projectors. The kind you can directly connect to a BD player (terrible choice for gaming) and PC Friendly 120 Hertz projectors. You (I do) can still play 3DBDs on a PC friendly projector with software but they all use 120Hz Frame Sequential as far as I know. I'm using an Acer 5360 for gaming and occasional movie and there is another Acer, the 5360BD that you can connect directly to a BD player but I certainly wouldn't want it for gaming. All of the PC Friendly 3D projectors run @ 720p/120Hz. If you need a 1080P/120Hz i think the prices start around $85,000.00 + tax and you'll need to rewire your house to power the computer to drive it. smile.gif
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