Comparison of "2D to 3D" conversion vs True 3D from 3D disc - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 53 Old 05-21-2015, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
I have tried out two 3D simulators, the one in PowerDVD 14, and the one in my Sony 2013 year TV, but I don't use them for normal viewing. For my vision they create too many artefacts, though they add a bit of interest to the viewing experience.



I've tried PowerDVD 14. It analyses layers in considerable detail and spaces them at different 3D depths. However it seems unable to estimate the depth change between layers accurately.

For example, there's a scene about 9 minutes into the Doctor Who episode Inthe Forest of the Night where Mr Pink accepts Bradley's offer to be the navigator for the class. They are all in a forest and there is a London Underground Railway sign amongst the vegetation. Here is an example of what such a sign looks like in 2D:





In that Dr Who scene, PowerDVD 14 placed the word UNDERGROUND on a separate layer, well in front of the red circle, making the word UNDERGROUND look like a separate physical structure to the rest of the sign. In the same scene it placed Bradley's head, partly covered by vegetation, well behind the rest of his body. The software is fairly good at detecting the order of layers but fairly poor at allocating appropriate strengths for the depth values. To get around that problem, I set the PowerDVD depth control at about 25% of full. This still leaves an obvious 3D effect but softens the impact of the more obvious depth exaggerations.

In testing, I have found that the PowerDVD simulation copes well with sudden scene changes.



I would agree.

Of course the scene must have enough layer cues in it for a 3D simulator to use. I find with my 2013 year Sony TV, that it attempts little 3D depth simulation with certain (ambiguous?) scenes but on others it will "go to town" in identifying layers and allocating different depth values.



Good questions! I can only offer a few comments.

Passive vs active should make no difference. These are different technologies for displaying the left and right images. Simulation is about creating the left and right images. [Simulation software can use the 2D source as one view, and synthesize a second view. Both of these views are then sent to the display.]


2013 year Sony 4k TV

I have a Sony 2013 year 65" 4k passive 3D set released in Australia (model KD65X9004A). For my eyes it performs badly on off-air (50Hz) material when there is a change of scene. There's often a momentary discontinuity in the 3D effect. This doesn't happen so much with a signal from a pc, or from a Blu-ray movie. In fact the simulation quality is not too bad with a Blu-ray movie. The highest setting for the 3D effect would suit people who like a strong effect, but it will occasionally create odd exaggerations, e.g. a newsreader's head may seem to protrude forward excessively compared with the rest of their body. I would use the medium setting. For those very averse to seeing artefacts, the low setting would be the safest to use.

The effect seems quite arbitrary at times, e.g. a pc screen of application icons will be processed so as to place some individual icons forwards and some backwards and will layer parts of some icons. This might be experienced as "interesting" and adding "spice" but there is no reality to adding 3D to a pc desktop of icons!

With real life content, the algorithms seem to get the order of the layering correct most of the time, but the extent of change in 3D depth from one layer to the next is at times exaggerated.
Hi ML,

Thanks for your thoughts. I haven't noticed any problem with parts of a protruding body or an object being out of proportion. I use it for cable and up converted DVDs (do not own blue ray) and nature, wildlife and geographic material is tremendously enhanced and the depth actually appears close to the natural way our eyes would capture it in person.

Enjoy the added depth this lends to the home theater experience even though the 3D is more subtle but have found certain user adjustments besides 3D effect strength can improve the quality of the simulation. Changes in noise reduction, reality creation, gamma, etc. that do not affect color saturation or contrast and black level balance I found to have subtle effects on the depth when those levels were increasing and decreasing. Could simply be a case of improving the picture quality under the conditions of a simulated 3D signal.
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post #32 of 53 Old 05-24-2015, 06:48 AM
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One of the biggest issues with simulated 3D (2D to 3D conversion), IMO, has to do with gamma correction. It appears to me that whether converted or native, Hollywood is enhancing the brightness of 3D releases to compensate for the inherent loss of brightness due to the glasses, etc. When we convert 2D to 3D we need to dramatically adjust gamma to retain some of the brightness of the 2D version.

Unless your monitor allows for customized gamma you have a problem -- the solution could be a PC with a video card that allows this. The advantage of something like PowerDVD's 2D to 3D conversion is that you have some tools to manipulate gamma and open up the bottom end of the image. As mentioned by someone else on this thread if you use the depth control judiciously (25% to 35%) PowerDVD can produce some surprisingly good results with little artifacting. Along with customized gamma settings offered by the video card this combination is tough to beat for the money -- I think you can buy PowerDVD15 Ultra on sale for under $100. You can download a free trial to try it out before you decide whether or not to buy.

I like to use different 2D to 3D conversion technologies and go back and forth with the same material to get a feel for each for comparison purposes. For me its part of the hobby. IMO the best bang for the buck is the PC (PowerDVD and gamma correction). Of course you need a very good PC, which costs money (or just upgrade what you have) but this can be easily be rationalized since you could use the computer for lots of other things.

For some reason I find I get a little bit of eye strain when using PowerDVD for 2D to 3D conversion. I've never noticed any eye strain when using the Teranex or the converter in the Mits.

I guess those of us that enjoy the better 2D to 3D converters are a rare breed. It seems many don't particularly care for high quality Hollywood 3D so I can understand why a step down to real time 2D to 3D conversion doesn't appeal to them at all. The downside for all of us is that there probably isn't the demand, which would fuel more development, for a reasonably priced high quality 2D to 3D converter. I guess we're lucky to have what we have.

The five or six of us that actually care about 3D can argue until hell freezes over as to whether or not real time 2D to 3D converters actually work but its rather pointless. I enjoy real time 2D to 3D conversion and will continue to use it. Those that don't think its worthwhile won't use it. That's the simple reality of the situation. Which is best? I guess it depends on your expectations and the size of your wallet. For the best value my money is on PowerDVD -- definitely worth a look (try it for free) if 2D to 3D conversion interests you.
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post #33 of 53 Old 05-24-2015, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
Unless your monitor allows for customized gamma you have a problem -- the solution could be a PC with a video card that allows this.
Actually my 2013 year passive 3D Sony UHD TV increases brightness automatically when it goes into 3D mode. I find there is no need to boost it further to compensate for the approx 50% brightness reduction from wearing passive glasses. Even with daylight viewing, the set can produce enough brightness for the darker parts of the 3D picture to be visible.

Older plasma sets may struggle to produce sufficient brightness for 3D and may need to be helped out by adjusting the gamma to boost dark greys to mid greys, if they are not already adjusted that way by default for 3D mode. I recall that with my 2010 model 50" Panasonic Plasma I had to change the gamma setting to a vivid mode to watch some of my 3D Blu-rays. This crushed near whites to white, and near blacks to black, but at least the picture became clearly visible!

[As for Hollywood practices with gamma, I have noticed a love of black, especially in sci-fi movies. If I analyze individual 2D Blu-ray frames I often find vast expanses of video black in what otherwise appear to be well lit scenes. This gives a stark, high contrast, look which may be appealing to viewers, just as high contrast photos in a glossy magazine may be appealing. However this practice is not of course realistic: dark greys present in the scene are lost and rendered instead as full black.]

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post #34 of 53 Old 05-26-2015, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
The five or six of us that actually care about 3D can argue until hell freezes over as to whether or not real time 2D to 3D converters actually work but its rather pointless. I enjoy real time 2D to 3D conversion and will continue to use it. Those that don't think its worthwhile won't use it. That's the simple reality of the situation. Which is best? I guess it depends on your expectations and the size of your wallet. For the best value my money is on PowerDVD -- definitely worth a look (try it for free) if 2D to 3D conversion interests you.
Five or six who care? That many?

Seriously, I've just finished watching THE ROAD WARRIOR converted on my home theater PC via PowerDVD 15 Ultra (having recently seen MAD MAX: FURY ROAD in 3D and enjoying it immensely) and was blown away. In previous iterations of PowerDVD I could not move the depth setting more than halfway before the converted image started to look artificial. I watched the Blu ray tonight with the 3D set to maximum depth and thought the picture looked sensational. There were dozens of shots where I stared slack-jawed in amazement at how natural the 3D looked; at one point, I even started wondering if somebody might have hacked a Teranex and reverse engineered its algorithms. (I haven't seen the Teranex in action and am undoubtedly kidding myself on this point.) Maybe I'm suffering from the placebo effect, but every iteration of PowerDVD seems to improve the conversion, even if only slightly, and this latest version seems significantly better, at least to my eyes. For one thing, the "billboard effect," described in a recent post (where multiple lines of text have different depths), seems to have disappeared almost completely, and the converter seems to handle landscapes much better. I marveled at one shot where the camera zoomed in on a road and everything in the shot, including bushes on either side, retained a natural depth. I'd love to have the filthy lucre needed to purchase a Teranex, but that's still not in the cards for now. I agree with Deja Vu that for the budget-conscious (like yours truly), PowerDVD is the way to go.
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post #35 of 53 Old 05-26-2015, 06:04 AM
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Five or six who care? That many?

Seriously, I've just finished watching THE ROAD WARRIOR converted on my home theater PC via PowerDVD 15 Ultra (having recently seen MAD MAX: FURY ROAD in 3D and enjoying it immensely) and was blown away. In previous iterations of PowerDVD I could not move the depth setting more than halfway before the converted image started to look artificial. I watched the Blu ray tonight with the 3D set to maximum depth and thought the picture looked sensational. There were dozens of shots where I stared slack-jawed in amazement at how natural the 3D looked; at one point, I even started wondering if somebody might have hacked a Teranex and reverse engineered its algorithms. (I haven't seen the Teranex in action and am undoubtedly kidding myself on this point.) Maybe I'm suffering from the placebo effect, but every iteration of PowerDVD seems to improve the conversion, even if only slightly, and this latest version seems significantly better, at least to my eyes. For one thing, the "billboard effect," described in a recent post (where multiple lines of text have different depths), seems to have disappeared almost completely, and the converter seems to handle landscapes much better. I marveled at one shot where the camera zoomed in on a road and everything in the shot, including bushes on either side, retained a natural depth. I'd love to have the filthy lucre needed to purchase a Teranex, but that's still not in the cards for now. I agree with Deja Vu that for the budget-conscious (like yours truly), PowerDVD is the way to go.
Thanks for sharing that information. That's great news. PowerDVD 15 Ultra here I go.
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post #36 of 53 Old 05-26-2015, 09:04 AM
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Caught "47 Ronin" on demand and did compare the true 3D version to a simulated 2D version, of course, only using the mechanism available in my Sony KD50w800b.

No comparison, of course. The depth on the 3D was breath taking. However, would not say that the 2D conversion was a disappointment. Just that it is not fair comparing the two at least for us who use only monitors with built in 3D simulation. The simulated affect has to simply be appreciated for what it can do and that does make the viewing experience much more enjoyable over 2D when in the mood and the source is the right kind of material.
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post #37 of 53 Old 05-27-2015, 04:15 PM
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Thanks for sharing that information. That's great news. PowerDVD 15 Ultra here I go.
I'm going to get a copy as well. I really enjoy comparing the different solutions for real time 2D to 3D conversion. For me it's sic-fi and I'm in awe of those individuals out there with the skills to give us this kind of quality on-the-fly 2D to 3D conversion for $100 -- Absolutely amazing!
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post #38 of 53 Old 05-28-2015, 12:07 AM
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I'm going to get a copy as well. I really enjoy comparing the different solutions for real time 2D to 3D conversion. For me it's sic-fi and I'm in awe of those individuals out there with the skills to give us this kind of quality on-the-fly 2D to 3D conversion for $100 -- Absolutely amazing!
If you can, tell us something after you try it. I always like to hear your opinion about 2D to 3D converters.
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post #39 of 53 Old 06-03-2015, 01:52 PM
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I have not had personal experience with the Teranex. I've had personal experience with the following 2D-to-3D converters, all of which have (IMHO) problems with proper conversion:

Panasonic 3D Blu-ray players from several years ago (DMP-BDT100 et al.)
Samsung BD-D6700 3D Blu-ray player
Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra (from version 10 to the current version 15)
Tridef 3D (PC software)
KanexPro CubeUp
OPPO BDP-103D
LG 3D HDTVs (from 2011 forward)

With the exception of the Panasonic players, all of these converters use some type of object detection / depth map generation.

I cannot bring myself to believe that if these low-to-medium-priced converters do object detection (even if they don't do it well), an expensive ($3K-$4K and in its previous iterations MUCH more costly) converter like the Teranex does not.
I have the KanexPro Cubeup in my video chain (purchased for less than $25 ebay) and am pleasantly surprised by the conversion with HIGH effect enabled. It's 3D is decent and again surprisingly rarely produces glaring object depth errors. It does have about a 200ms delay when active so check your receiver for audio delay options. I wanted to compare it to a 3D Bee Diamond (fxrh?) but never had the chance. For a low cost enjoyable hardware solution I'd recommend it.
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post #40 of 53 Old 06-03-2015, 02:08 PM
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I have the KanexPro Cubeup in my video chain (purchased for less than $25 ebay) and am pleasantly surprised by the conversion with HIGH effect enabled. It's 3D is decent and again surprisingly rarely produces glaring object depth errors. It does have about a 200ms delay when active so check your receiver for audio delay options. I wanted to compare it to a 3D Bee Diamond (fxrh?) but never had the chance. For a low cost enjoyable hardware solution I'd recommend it.
I second your fondness for the KanexPro Cubeup. I picked up one for a song on eBay as well. I used it for quite a while but haven't done so lately because I don't want to leave it in the A/V chain permanently and since it requires being plugged into an outlet I have to unhook it and rehook it. (I realize that it has a Bypass option, but that would require that the unit be on all the time, and the little sucker does get quite warm -- the idea of leaving it powered on all the time made me a little bit nervous.) Also, the sound delay is a bit of an inconvenience -- my receiver allows me to get the sync perfectly, but it's sometimes a bit finicky when I switch back to the "no delay" setting. Also, I admit I enjoy more flexibility in terms of multiple 3D settings. (I also use HIGH for the setting and think it looks great.) All of these are mere nits; I think highly of the Cubeup but now tend to favor the latest PowerDVD version. Considering the original price, purchasing this on eBay was a no-brainer!

I have no experience with the 3D Bee, but having read a fair number of hit-or-miss comments about it, I decided I'd stick with the less expensive options.
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post #41 of 53 Old 06-04-2015, 12:31 AM
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If you can, tell us something after you try it. I always like to hear your opinion about 2D to 3D converters.
Deja Vu has recently started another thread where he relates his impressions of PowerDVD 15 Ultra in considerable detail:

Real time 2D to 3D conversion -- It's here now, it works and it's inexpensive!
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post #42 of 53 Old 06-07-2015, 06:01 PM
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Hi all,

OK, stupid question.

If one gets a blue ray with a 2D to 3D conversion, does using that in conjunction with a set's built in 2D/3D adjustment enhance the depth effect of standard DVDs even further than just using a non-3D player? Not asking if it makes it closer to actual 3D as it does the depth perception.

Thanx,

Joe
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post #43 of 53 Old 06-07-2015, 09:10 PM
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Hi all,

OK, stupid question.

If one gets a blue ray with a 2D to 3D conversion, does using that in conjunction with a set's built in 2D/3D adjustment enhance the depth effect of standard DVDs even further than just using a non-3D player? Not asking if it makes it closer to actual 3D as it does the depth perception.

Thanx,

Joe
Realtime conversion only functions with 2D sources.
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post #44 of 53 Old 06-08-2015, 11:03 AM
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Realtime conversion only functions with 2D sources.
Hi cakefoo,

But I was wondering if using the player's 2D simulation can increase the depth I would get from just using my Sony's 50w800b's simulated mode alone (by having a simulated 3D effect already fed into the television). Not tremendous, of course, but a little bit more? Or could it be overkill or result in cross talk or other types of distortion?
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post #45 of 53 Old 06-08-2015, 05:46 PM
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding again, but it sounds to me like you want to use your Blu-ray player's 2D>3D conversion, plus your TV's 2D>3D conversion, but it's not possible. The TV will see your Blu-ray player's signal as 3D, so the TV's conversion mode will be disabled.
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Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding again, but it sounds to me like you want to use your Blu-ray player's 2D>3D conversion, plus your TV's 2D>3D conversion, but it's not possible. The TV will see your Blu-ray player's signal as 3D, so the TV's conversion mode will be disabled.
Hi cakefoo,

Yup, that was the basic question, but forgive me for wording it incorrectly. Since the TV would then be sensing a 3D signal (though simulated) know its conversion mode would be disabled but was wondering if the depth could then be enhanced further by the monitor's actual 3D user options.

Thanks so much for taking the time with this. Just looking to see if there could be a way to further enhance 2D to 3D before getting a blu ray at this time; enough titles on free on demand to keep us happy.

Joe
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Hi cakefoo,

Yup, that was the basic question, but forgive me for wording it incorrectly. Since the TV would then be sensing a 3D signal (though simulated) know its conversion mode would be disabled but was wondering if the depth could then be enhanced further by the monitor's actual 3D user options.

Thanks so much for taking the time with this. Just looking to see if there could be a way to further enhance 2D to 3D before getting a blu ray at this time; enough titles on free on demand to keep us happy.

Joe
You can probably adjust the stereo window, usually called convergence, viewpoint, or similar. It simply pushes the scene deeper beyond the screen or pulls it towards you, depending on which direction you move the slider. Adjust deeper and it will feel more epic and vast, or adjust closer and it will feel like everything is more in your face. Personal preference.
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You can probably adjust the stereo window, usually called convergence, viewpoint, or similar. It simply pushes the scene deeper beyond the screen or pulls it towards you, depending on which direction you move the slider. Adjust deeper and it will feel more epic and vast, or adjust closer and it will feel like everything is more in your face. Personal preference.
Hi cakefoo,

That is what I thought might happen but wanted to check out with others.

Yes, my Sony 50w800b has such an adjustment and at its highest (2) it is more in your face but with some cross talk. But the default setting is zero and increasing it to one does create more depth, a lot more than increasing the simulated mode the same increment.

Probably worth investing just for that. There are a few titles I would like to own as well, including that 3D anthology from the 20s to the 50s.

Thanks so much for your help.
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Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post
You can probably adjust the stereo window, usually called convergence, viewpoint, or similar. It simply pushes the scene deeper beyond the screen or pulls it towards you, depending on which direction you move the slider. Adjust deeper and it will feel more epic and vast, or adjust closer and it will feel like everything is more in your face. Personal preference.
Hi cakefoo,

That is what I thought might happen but wanted to check out with others.

Yes, my Sony 50w800b has such an adjustment and at its highest (2) it is more in your face but with some cross talk. But the default setting is zero and increasing it to one does create more depth, a lot more than increasing the simulated mode the same increment.

Probably worth investing just for that. There are a few titles I would like to own as well, including that 3D anthology from the 20s to the 50s.

Thanks again so much for your help.
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post #50 of 53 Old 11-22-2015, 06:04 AM
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Best IMO to turn on the monitor last after the Teranex has gone completely through its boot up -- if you don't get it to "talk" to your monitor properly you will only get that push back looking 3D without the separation between objects -- I almost sent mine back until figured out the problem. .
Technically speaking what was not right when it did not "talk" correctly? Was it not sending a 3D signal?
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post #51 of 53 Old 01-05-2017, 03:55 PM
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This is native 3D.


Notice how the croc, the leaves and the bamboo fence are shifting independently.


This is a conversion by the Teranex, regarded by some on this forum to be the best converter. One user even claims it looks more realistic than native 3D.


Notice how it looks like a flat image that's simply turning. Other than that, the Teranex pushes the entire image back so it looks like it's floating further behind the TV screen. You can accomplish the latter effect by toying with your TV's 3D window setting, free of charge.

If I had $3K+ to throw at 3D content, I'd buy a couple hundred 3D Blu-rays instead.
I just bought a Oppo 203 BD player. I also have a JS9500 Samsung 4k TV & a Denon 6300H AVR. Question for a 4k BD can either the player or TV or AVR convert the 2D4k BD disk to 3D?
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post #52 of 53 Old 05-13-2017, 04:40 PM
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I bought a second hand Teranex 3d and it creates 3d by distorting the right eye and a tv logo
on the bottom right is totally out of stereo alignment the Teranex 3d does not use a depthmap it is very poor
in 3d effects and my 3dbee, Tridef Media Player, and Monoprice 2d to 3d converters all
look much better 3d effects. I'm very disappointed in the Teranex 3d and wish i'd never seen the
positive reviews on this forum which convinced me to buy one.
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post #53 of 53 Old 05-13-2017, 04:42 PM
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Also the 3dbee Diamond is much better 2d to 3d than my Oppo
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