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post #1 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Help Converting 3D Blu-Ray to MKV

I recently got a new LG OLED TV and as everyone had commented in ratings of the TV, 3D looks amazing on it! What I was wanting to do was digitize all my 3D movies for easy playback via the TV's USB input.

I have done a lot of searching online and from what I could find, the only way to truly get the same/full Blu-Ray visual is to copy the full disc as an ISO file. However, the LG TV can't play ISO files. From what I've read the 2nd best option is MKV Files with full bitrate (no or almost no compression) but things get a little sketchy confusing after that... I'm using DVDFab Software to rip my Blu-Ray Disc to save on the computer.

Here are my questions:
1) By default, the "Main Movie" is selected. Does this "main movie" contain data that tells DVDFab where each of the actual two movie files (left/right) are for conversion? Or is it possible that DVDFab is only using one file/stream and therefore not using the true 3D files. I'm assuming this can't be the case because I've been trial and error testing some stuff and it appears to be good 3d, but I want to make sure.
2) 3D Format - Should I be using SBS (especially if that's what the native disc is) or Top/Bottom or does it matter? I read some places where people said T/B is better for passive 3D but others said that on a 4K Upscaling TV it doesn't matter.
3) On that same note, should I be doing SBS or T/B with Full Size rather than Half Size? I mean, my question is this - are the movie files on the disc actually in full size and when you play the disc the Blu-Ray player "halves" them to give the 3D effect but on a 4K TV you don't have to do that and can keep the full size? Or are the actual video files on the disc already "halved" so it's pointless to try to change them to "full" in conversion?

Thanks for any expert advice y'all can give me. We just recently updated our home theater with the LG Oled and a new 5.2.4 Surround System and I've been buying a number of great 3D movies, but really, it's the digital age - the fact that we're still using Disc for movies and not just digital files is beyond me. I want the convenience of just switching my TV to my USB and all my movies are there for me to chose from!
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post #2 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 06:28 PM
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You are moving from physical disc to digital.
There are many advantages using digital. 1st, you will be creating backups. 2nd, it's advantageous to use a library to access your new media. This way you do not have to hassle anything manual like hunting for discs, loading them and later putting them away. Title selections can become cumbersome too. Having all your media at your fingertips includes very nice cataloging represented with synopsis and artwork too. Not to mention other perks like trailers, cast bios, and too many other things to list. Very handy for guests helping decide what to watch or listen to. There are many software that achieve this, each unique depending on your preferences. I use Kodi with PowerDVD and Redfox. This combo is without a doubt the best approach and cannot be beat imo. Many will argue that. The point being, your TV USB port accessing it's internal library/player cannot achieve any of this. It's extremely limited and why most folks opt for playback via a PC with digital media using various software and combos.


That being said, you specifically need info for 3D formats. You appear to be accustomed to physical discs. A complete disc copy requires an iso container. Essentially, you are preserving and putting all the contents of your disc into a container consisting of many files. This also maintains the original format of a 3D disc (Frame Packed MVC) and your panel internal player cannot mount it as you know. It also keeps the entire menu intact just like the physical disc. Transcoding your disc to a new format like SBS or TAB will not retain the entire disc. Only what you choose. It combines essential files and puts them into a new container of your choice like mkv. They are no longer separate files except audio, video and subs. The dozens of unique video files, for example, become transcoded into one. You will no longer have a menu like the original and often leads to other problems unforeseen until it pops up, usually at the least appropriate times. You will most likely run into a 'Header' problem as well which will require mkvMerge to correct it once the rip is complete. Most prefer to strip and transcode to mkv because main movie playback is quicker and uses less disc space. Other advantages are more software friendly (like your panel) and cost effect when it comes to a myriad of other inconveniences like DRM. Personally, I avoid this route and prefer to experience EXACTLY as the physical disc in a dedicated player. I also prefer Frame Packed MVC to SBS or TAB as was designed and intended.


With these facts, you need to ask yourself a couple questions. Only then will you receive proper guidance imo. If you've been around the block, already done your homework and know you want to rip digital media played via usb to your panel, disregard all of this. Otherwise answer a few questions:


I assume you have a Windows PC if you're using Fab?
Would you consider playing your media from that PC plugged into your panel via HDMI cable?
Would you consider spending less than a couple hundred dollars to enhance your experience or do you prefer to do it as economical as possible?


In regards to your specific questions:


(1) Yes, Fab knows which files to encode. If you want no compression, and I would if I was you, enter all 9's into Fab advanced setting output size until it shows correct uncompressed size. To access advanced setting transcoding, you will be using the RIP tab with 3D mkv, not the Copy advanced setting that just has the convert to SBS choice. Using that, your title will get compressed so much it loses most of the detail you bought a 4k panel for.
(2) SBS is most popular. Does it matter? No. Upscaling makes no difference which format.
(3) Full size for 4k upscaling @ 1080 per eye.


Be aware, most use free transcoding software like handbrake so you will get mixed answers. Same with free software. Same with free players. Most use free everything and live with the consequences or ruin their media so it conforms with these free things. This is why 99% of the advice and herd mentality on the internet disagree with anything that costs often proclaiming why the free route is better...... once you get used to the problems and inconveniences if you look at it that way. You get what you pay for. Just sayin'.
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post #3 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
You are moving from physical disc to digital.
There are many advantages using digital. 1st, you will be creating backups. 2nd, it's advantageous to use a library to access your new media. This way you do not have to hassle anything manual like hunting for discs, loading them and later putting them away. Title selections can become cumbersome too. Having all your media at your fingertips includes very nice cataloging represented with synopsis and artwork too. Not to mention other perks like trailers, cast bios, and too many other things to list. Very handy for guests helping decide what to watch or listen to. There are many software that achieve this, each unique depending on your preferences. I use Kodi with PowerDVD and Redfox. This combo is without a doubt the best approach and cannot be beat imo. Many will argue that. The point being, your TV USB port accessing it's internal library/player cannot achieve any of this. It's extremely limited and why most folks opt for playback via a PC with digital media using various software and combos.


That being said, you specifically need info for 3D formats. You appear to be accustomed to physical discs. A complete disc copy requires an iso container. Essentially, you are preserving and putting all the contents of your disc into a container consisting of many files. This also maintains the original format of a 3D disc (Frame Packed MVC) and your panel internal player cannot mount it as you know. It also keeps the entire menu intact just like the physical disc. Transcoding your disc to a new format like SBS or TAB will not retain the entire disc. Only what you choose. It combines essential files and puts them into a new container of your choice like mkv. They are no longer separate files except audio, video and subs. The dozens of unique video files, for example, become transcoded into one. You will no longer have a menu like the original and often leads to other problems unforeseen until it pops up, usually at the least appropriate times. You will most likely run into a 'Header' problem as well which will require mkvMerge to correct it once the rip is complete. Most prefer to strip and transcode to mkv because main movie playback is quicker and uses less disc space. Other advantages are more software friendly (like your panel) and cost effect when it comes to a myriad of other inconveniences like DRM. Personally, I avoid this route and prefer to experience EXACTLY as the physical disc in a dedicated player. I also prefer Frame Packed MVC to SBS or TAB as was designed and intended.


With these facts, you need to ask yourself a couple questions. Only then will you receive proper guidance imo. If you've been around the block, already done your homework and know you want to rip digital media played via usb to your panel, disregard all of this. Otherwise answer a few questions:


I assume you have a Windows PC if you're using Fab?
Would you consider playing your media from that PC plugged into your panel via HDMI cable?
Would you consider spending less than a couple hundred dollars to enhance your experience or do you prefer to do it as economical as possible?


In regards to your specific questions:


(1) Yes, Fab knows which files to encode. If you want no compression, and I would if I was you, enter all 9's into Fab advanced setting output size until it shows correct uncompressed size. To access advanced setting transcoding, you will be using the RIP tab with 3D mkv, not the Copy advanced setting that just has the convert to SBS choice. Using that, your title will get compressed so much it loses most of the detail you bought a 4k panel for.
(2) SBS is most popular. Does it matter? No. Upscaling makes no difference which format.
(3) Full size for 4k upscaling @ 1080 per eye.


Be aware, most use free transcoding software like handbrake so you will get mixed answers. Same with free software. Same with free players. Most use free everything and live with the consequences or ruin their media so it conforms with these free things. This is why 99% of the advice and herd mentality on the internet disagree with anything that costs often proclaiming why the free route is better...... once you get used to the problems and inconveniences if you look at it that way. You get what you pay for. Just sayin'.
brazen1 - THANKS a million for your complete response and explanation - that helps a lot! You definitely make some good points and give me some good stuff to think about. I do ultimately want to achieve near perfect if not perfect duplication of the actual disc experience, so maybe I'm going the wrong route.

Couple of follow ups you may have an answer to...
1) I do have an Android TV Box that is 4K capable and has Kodi on it. Would that be able to play ISO files? If so, I'm assuming you'd say that's the better option to my MKV via TV USB...
2) I have an older Blu-Ray player now, but intend on buying a new HDR 4K Capable Blu-Ray player in the near future. Since Blu-Ray players by default play Blu-Ray Discs, can they also play ISO files via USB (Assuming they have usb input - the few I've looked at do)?

And this is just a curiosity... In my trial and error testing with Life of PI 3D I noticed that my MKV files when using the highest quality choices and ripping only the main movie are HUGE - the last one I created using SBS Full Video is like 164gb. Why in the world would it be like that when the entire Blu-Ray disc is less than 50gb?!?! That makes no sense to me and defeats the purpose of storing movies digitally... Anyway, this one is just for my general knowledge because I am trying to learn as much as I can about all this stuff.

Thanks!
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post #4 of 37 Old 04-13-2017, 09:07 PM
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I don't have it but you can use a KD Links box (running Kodi) if you must have full quality (iso method). Keep in mind you will be backing up the entire disc which will take up whatever the disc size is. Also, from what I've read these boxes aren't so great at keeping up over network therefore storing files on the internal drive is best. That's just what I've read, not personal experience.
You can also store t/b or sbs if you want to save space.

If you are ok with half resolution, and that's what I do because I really don't see much difference in quality vs. the Blu ray you could just store them on HDD's and use a home theater media player on your computer and just use half resolution files.

On your Life of Pi, did you choose "SBS Full"? That would be a 3840x1920 frame which might account for the large size. You would need to use the half resolution options on those.

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post #5 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 06:13 AM
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This thread from the Kodi forums is the best place to start looking for ripping 3D films to go digital instead of physical media.

I am in the process of doing this for my home theater projector.

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=221407

So far, I am using either my Mac or a Raspberry Pi 3. Both work well for the 3d video and I am mostly trying to find the right solution to get frame-packed 3d AND HD audio to my receiver, but since my receiver is older and doesn't have 3d pass-through, I think I'm stuck until I upgrade the receiver.

But for 3d, Kodi can totally playback ISOs with full frame-packed 3d to capable display devices and there are very inexpensive options for the hardware to run Kodi on in order to achieve this now.
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post #6 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wombat94 View Post
This thread from the Kodi forums is the best place to start looking for ripping 3D films to go digital instead of physical media.

I am in the process of doing this for my home theater projector.

http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=221407

So far, I am using either my Mac or a Raspberry Pi 3. Both work well for the 3d video and I am mostly trying to find the right solution to get frame-packed 3d AND HD audio to my receiver, but since my receiver is older and doesn't have 3d pass-through, I think I'm stuck until I upgrade the receiver.

But for 3d, Kodi can totally playback ISOs with full frame-packed 3d to capable display devices and there are very inexpensive options for the hardware to run Kodi on in order to achieve this now.
If your receiver will handle TrueHD and DTS HD you can get HD audio with your Mac if it has HDMI. I'm using a 2011 Mac Mini in one room. I format to top bottom, TrueHD will passthru as PCM so no conversion is needed, DTS HD must be converted or it will just default to the lossy core. I encode those with 24 bit Flac. Not sure how to encode to 7.1 as it will downmix to 5.1 on the Mac. Can be done in Windows.

Not much you can do about the full resolution frame packing. I tried encoding to top bottom full and played them on my 4K LG which then displayed in full resolution, however the files are much bigger and playback isn't so great over network unless you have faster drives. I only did one test and I didn't try lowering bit rate which may have helped. Given the extra size I didn't find the results worth it for top bottom full.

About the only way to get frame packing is by keeping the files in iso format. There was a way with makemkv and using stereoscopic player in Windows but that's for Windows. Also in Windows, PowerDVD which I tested while in Bootcamp but for some reason my GPU didn't pass thru multichannel audio. I can't remember why now or maybe it was because I was using the trial.

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post #7 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 08:37 AM
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I don't know much about the various 'devices' out there. I do know each and every one of them are unique and that not one of them can do everything except for one very specific device. Your Windows 10 PC. It and it alone is the only 'device' capable of doing EVERYTHING especially when it comes to high bitrate audio, video, and in this case, proper frame packed MVC 3D. It also never made much sense to me to have 1 device for ripping, another device to store/serve the rips, another device for playback, and more devices picking up the slack of the 1st playback device, and so on.


I see the forked build of Kodi (not official and dependent maintained by 1 developer) mentioned here. It is hardware specific. It's designed around an NUC. It is limited to 1080p playback only which was fine back in 1080 days but now that 4k is here, it's obsolete. It's also free hence you get what you pay for. Furthermore, this NUC device and ALL others like it are limited to rendering from an HDMI 1.4 port ONLY. It is not capable of rendering via a modern HDMI 2.0 port and simply non compliant. A Windows 10 PC with a half way decent Nvidia GPU IS capable of all that and much more. None of these devices are economically upgradable either, another beauty of a PC. Mine is circa 2008 and there is nothing I can't play 100% perfectly let alone rip, serve, stream and compute. (I'm not big on streaming or the limited bitrate of sources). There has been a shift from HTPC's to these glorified devices that are simply limited. Why? I suppose 3 reasons. They sell to the lazy folks that will settle for all their shortcomings because all they have to do is plug it in and they make great gifts for those that rarely watch TV let alone movies. These users are not avid. Most of the devices come preloaded ready to stream free content. The content is low quality compressed junk with clogged servers unable to accommodate the masses cutting cords but still paying for that internet. Eager developers and manufactures will happily take your money and youtube hits as long as users are willing to keep bending over, stay uninformed, settle, and digest non HTPC propaganda in exchange for their pigs with lipstick.


With HDR in the forefront, 3D has been set aside. Imo, once 4k/HDR/etc. has been milked, 3D will make a miraculous comeback, forcing all present and near future displays to ahem, upgrade again. The new creators update enabled fake HDR and does not work nor look very good. Windows with PowerDVD 17 is the only combo that can play HDR properly. This from test files available on the net. I tried the whole madVR with LavFilters thing. It is CPU dependent with no hardware decoding allowed. This means unless you have an expensive very high quality CPU struggling with the work load, it is not going to work period. PowerDVD handles this with ease using ancient hardware such as mine. Point being, there are many, many benefits to a Windows 10, PowerDVD, Redfox combo that ends up being FAR less expensive than any other route if you do the math. Given you already own a PC (how else are you ripping?) the cost is further reduced.


You emphasize your "box with Kodi on it". Kodi is free open source software. You just install it and tailor it to your choosing. The sky is the limit from simplistic to bells and whistles you could never imagine. Your box is nothing special simply because it has Kodi on it. Kodi is NOT very android friendly btw.


Any ROM will mount iso's. There are virtual ROMS making the whole digital experience better. You want to get away from physical discs and now you can get away from physical ROM's too. ROMS 'mount' your iso. Once it's mounted, it can be handed off to players. Your physical ROM is still needed to rip the physical disc though. Very soon physical UHD ROM's will appear. At some point ripping from them will be developed much like the pioneer days of Blu-ray except there are more challenges these days due to greed and legalities than in the past.


Yes, the movies get huge ripping high quality mkv's and yet another reason to stay original iso imo. Most opt to give up quality in exchange for transcoded file size due to this. A few years ago there were no high quality mkv rip discussions so I decided to do it and present my accomplishments using my ancient PC and FAB. 3840 x 1080 had been done. 3840 x 2160 had not. A rip took about 24 hours. FAB was not 4k popular at the time but doable. More here at post 109 http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=113646&page=8 and more details at post 143 and onwards. Today I use Redfox for iso which performs better than FAB imo.


I also wrote a 3D guide years ago I maintain from time to time that may further assist you. I'm not the best guide author and as hardware, techniques, and software evolve, it's easy to become messy. Windows 7 to Windows 10 and 1080 to 4k kind of jumbled it but it's all there. I apologize for that. I can't seem to link it here in my signature for some reason? Maybe someone could help me? Anyway, here is the link http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=229692 and any questions I'd be happy to assist there. Above all, if this turns out to be a hobby and converts you to an enthusiast....... have fun!

Last edited by brazen1; 04-14-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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post #8 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 06:19 PM
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wondering if any BD / media player could support this 3D MVC format in MKV package. This really save a lot on storage after ripping from ISO and keep the resolution/HD audio at same time.
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post #9 of 37 Old 04-14-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ruijinlu View Post
wondering if any BD / media player could support this 3D MVC format in MKV package. This really save a lot on storage after ripping from ISO and keep the resolution/HD audio at same time.
I believe only makemkv to mkv mvc and use Stereoscopic Player in Windows. I've never tried it but supposedly it works. There's also Bino player for Mac which I think will accept it but it's more like VLC player. You need to locate the file and open it vs a home theater media player like Plex.

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post #10 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 06:02 AM
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I believe only makemkv to mkv mvc and use Stereoscopic Player in Windows. I've never tried it but supposedly it works. There's also Bino player for Mac which I think will accept it but it's more like VLC player. You need to locate the file and open it vs a home theater media player like Plex.
Hi tomtastic, I mean players like OPPO, Dune, etc.
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post #11 of 37 Old 04-15-2017, 07:04 PM
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Hi tomtastic, I mean players like OPPO, Dune, etc.
I doubt it because MVC is licensed and would require a disc. You have to look into either PC playback or from one of those boxes. Trying to play files from a TV or BD player, they're just not sophisticated enough. At least I've never heard of that working, maybe someone else has.

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post #12 of 37 Old 04-16-2017, 01:29 AM
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I doubt it because MVC is licensed and would require a disc. You have to look into either PC playback or from one of those boxes. Trying to play files from a TV or BD player, they're just not sophisticated enough. At least I've never heard of that working, maybe someone else has.
according to one of the link in above post , there is at least 2 choice from media box (Zidoo and Himedia) could support 3D MVC, but no BD players so far.
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according to one of the link in above post , there is at least 2 choice from media box (Zidoo and Himedia) could support 3D MVC, but no BD players so far.
I'm confused. I thought you were asking about BD players hence my last post. Media players or PC setup would be only way that I know of. Not sure on mvk mvc files in a media box, I think it has to be ISO. Stereoscopic player is the only one I know of that supports mkv mvc files.

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post #14 of 37 Old 04-16-2017, 04:39 PM
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PowerDVD plays mkv mvc files and any other file you feed it.
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post #15 of 37 Old 04-16-2017, 07:53 PM
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PowerDVD plays mkv mvc files and any other file you feed it.
That would probably be the best way to get smaller file size and retain full resolution if PDVD will play those, only other way would be to use top/bottom full but that may result in glitchy playback with the larger resolution (1920x2160), least it did for me.

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post #16 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 06:37 AM
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I'm confused. I thought you were asking about BD players hence my last post. Media players or PC setup would be only way that I know of. Not sure on mvk mvc files in a media box, I think it has to be ISO. Stereoscopic player is the only one I know of that supports mkv mvc files.
I am thinking of BD players which can play back from file stored on USB or streaming from NAS. OPPO, for 1 choice, support quite well in this function. I am hoping it could support MVC in MKV package as well.
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post #17 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ruijinlu View Post
I am thinking of BD players which can play back from file stored on USB or streaming from NAS. OPPO, for 1 choice, support quite well in this function. I am hoping it could support MVC in MKV package as well.
There are no shiny disc players today that can play back the MVC format in an MKV container, including Oppo. (The Oppo players will render MVC in 2D only. If you force 3D rendering in the setup options, you will get the player's interpretation of the 3D effect, not the 3D effect with which the movie was professionally authored.)
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post #18 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 08:20 AM
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There are no shiny disc players today that can play back the MVC format in an MKV container, including Oppo. (The Oppo players will render MVC in 2D only. If you force 3D rendering in the setup options, you will get the player's interpretation of the 3D effect, not the 3D effect with which the movie was professionally authored.)

Exactly. It's post processing 2D>3D conversion no matter if it's software or hardware decoding. Doesn't matter the player. In my experiences playing with 3D, usual tell tale sign is in aspect ratio. You will notice slight vertical black bars. During mode switch, if you watch closely, it actually goes into TAB. It gets even trickier when rendering to 4k. 3D is a 1080p format. Upscaling to 2160p has to be done with a player designed for it. None of the free options are. PDVD is. Most of the problems begin at the HDMI port. 1080p is compliant with HDMI 1.4 but 4k needs HDMI 2.0. If you feed 1080p through an HDMI 2.0 port, it's going to play in 2D. If you force 3D display switch, it's going to post process and it looks terrible. Their answer was not to let it upscale and force 1080p which looks terrible on a 4k display. Imo, this is why a great many shunned 3D exclaiming it gives them headaches and doesn't enhance the experience and prefer UHD. I also think many tried file playback and simply didn't know what they were doing experiencing failures or what they thought were successes that were actually flops since it rendered some kind of incorrect 3D. They also took the cheapest route adding to the bad mix. RPI comes to mind along with poor LAN bandwidth and rips compressed to a handful of the original gigs transcoded to SBS format. I get a headache just thinking about it.
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post #19 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ruijinlu View Post
wondering if any BD / media player could support this 3D MVC format in MKV package. This really save a lot on storage after ripping from ISO and keep the resolution/HD audio at same time.
The Mede8er players support network streaming of 3D Blu-Ray rips in both ISO as well as 3D MVC formats.

http://www.mede8er.com/mede8er_product_med600x3d.htm

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post #20 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
3D is a 1080p format.
I'm confused by most of this post. Yes, if frame packing isn't detected it will display in 2D (from the base view). But 3D can be any resolution less or more, the display will scale it up or down to fit within its native resolution, at least it does for me. For Blu ray 3D, yes 1080p24 or 720p50/60p are the only options while played from a Blu ray 3D player.

Are you saying that 4K displays don't upscale 3D? You would see black bars if that were the case.

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post #21 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I'm confused by most of this post. Yes, if frame packing isn't detected it will display in 2D (from the base view). But 3D can be any resolution less or more, the display will scale it up or down to fit within its native resolution, at least it does for me. For Blu ray 3D, yes 1080p24 or 720p50/60p are the only options while played from a Blu ray 3D player.

Are you saying that 4K displays don't upscale 3D? You would see black bars if that were the case.

Sorry for the confusion. When duplicating problems others presented, I began to understand why they were having problems and posted some of the symptoms here. The common case was trying to render 3D on a 4k display using the wrong software, configuration, and or hardware which used to work perfectly on their 1080 displays. The other common problem was matching refresh rate confusing 2D and 3D playback mode switching.


4k displays indeed upscale 1080 3D and it looks very good for not being native. Ripping to native 2160 and playing back did not look any different imo. Should 3D adopt 4k res in the future, I'm not sure it would look any better than upscaled?
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post #22 of 37 Old 04-17-2017, 04:37 PM
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I would say as long as the source is 4K and you retain either 4K frame packing or half resolution 4K like top/bottom it would be at least twice the resolution as Blu ray 3D or 4x's if it's frame packing so yeah noticeably better. Just saying because I do shoot some stuff in 4K then produce 4K3D half top/bottom and it does appear 4K and noticeably better than 1080p.

They could technically do the same right now on a UHD disc and consumers could too if we ever get authoring software for UHD discs. Just encode it to top/bottom, it would be a single 8 megapixel frame, 4mp per eye which is still 4K, it's the same as 1080p passive screens method discarding half the vertical resolution. But following the same format as Blu ray 3D they likely won't, if it ever arrives. The other problem right now is that it's very dependent on the displays. 4K Lg's you can feed them a 4K signal and just enable top/bottom (source must be top/bottom on passive of course). Active screens I'm not sure, Samsung supposedly rendered 4K in side by side mode other brands it may not work at all. Projectors I don't think will work at all in 4K resolution for 3D so just for flat panel screens.

Really, I don't think you need frame packing for 3D either at 1080p or 4K, just my opinion, nothing backed up by fact only my observation and tests. I've compared both the native Blu ray on both a 1080p LG and active PJ and I really don't see much advantage frame packing has over top/bottom. It retains the full resolution per eye but you'll only notice that if you have one eye closed and I've even done that and I just don't see it. You would think if it improved things by 50 percent it would WOW you, but that just isn't the case. It takes two eyes to form 3D. I think this is why 1080p passive screens really are great for 3D still as long as you don't sit too close (because of the black line problem up close). Besides my 4K LG, my PJ is the only place I can see the difference because it's active, but I don't. They could abandon frame packing and just use the UHD specs they have right now, that'd be fine for me.

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post #23 of 37 Old 04-18-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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My Solution

Thanks to everyone who's posted here! I wanted to follow-up with what I found to be my ultimate solution in case it helps anyone else out there.

I used the info I got here along with my own two week long test copying and ripping the same 3D Blu-Ray (Life of Pi - Big on Visuals) many, many times with different settings and then attempting to play on my TV.

IF I had a media PC hooked up to my TV, I would most likely just do an exact copy of the Blu-Ray into an ISO and play from the media PC. However, I don't have that and am not looking to add one any time soon since that would really be my only use for it. I did try playing the ISO file through an Android TV Box using Kodi but that is not a good solution IMO. Android TV Boxes (I have 3) are generally running a modified tablet OS - they are not optimized for use on a TV and do not do a good job of playing things exactly right (not a huge deal for normal movies, but a really big deal with 3D).

So ultimately I found my best bet was the following: Rip the Blu-Ray Main Movie only (all I care about) into an MKV File using H.265 encoding, choosing custom quality and then selecting the highest quality, with SBS (side-by-side) 3D and FULL resolution. I used 1-Pass encoding because since I was encoding at the highest possible quality the encoder didn't need to analyze what to drop. I also copied the DTS-HD audio into the file to retain the best sound. The resulting MKV file was an average size (23gb), played flawlessly on my TV using a USB 3.0 Stick, and looked amazing. I doubt anyone could tell the difference between that file and playing the actual Blu-Ray - at least I couldn't. And Life of Pi is a visual masterpiece which is why I chose it for my test.

As I mentioned in my original post, I used DVDfab to do all this. It does take a LONG time to do the rip - like half a day - which may also be affected by my Blu-Ray drive on my computer. But easy to set it up and just let it do it's thing while I'm sleeping. Anyway, this will definitely work for me and my goals.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing to the post!
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post #24 of 37 Old 04-18-2017, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by hollywoodfrodo View Post
The resulting MKV file was an average size (23gb), played flawlessly on my TV using a USB 3.0 Stick, and looked amazing. I doubt anyone could tell the difference between that file and playing the actual Blu-Ray - at least I couldn't. And Life of Pi is a visual masterpiece which is why I chose it for my test.

As I mentioned in my original post, I used DVDfab to do all this. It does take a LONG time to do the rip - like half a day - which may also be affected by my Blu-Ray drive on my computer. But easy to set it up and just let it do it's thing while I'm sleeping. Anyway, this will definitely work for me and my goals.

Thanks again to everyone for contributing to the post!
Are you ripping because you don't have 3D capable Blu ray player? I don't see the reason for ripping and then just putting on a USB stick (limited space). With all the time it takes you to rip you could just plug in a Blu ray 3D player and play the disc.

Also, ripping speed is really dependent on your hardware. I can generally rip to iso in about 5 minutes, encoding is much longer, h264 generally takes 30 minutes or more on my edit machine, h265 up to 2 hours. Encoding to side by side or top/bottom with H265 takes about 50 percent longer vs h264 which is where the long processing is happening. H264 will take less time but larger files and generally if you're going to half resolution you can save some space here and still not notice the quality loss. For instance you could use h264 and set CRF at 18, the resulting file will be more than sufficient and less space. Setting 1:1 setting here for 3D in DVDfab will not result in 1:1 quality of course because you're reducing the dual streams to one. I personally use top/bottom that way it's higher resolution on my upstairs screen which is passive. On active it doesn't matter or a 4K display.

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Last edited by tomtastic; 04-19-2017 at 05:59 AM.
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post #25 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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tomtastic - so if I'm understanding you correctly, since I'm using the highest quality with the least amount of compression possible, my result would likely be the same using h264 as h265 but possibly with much faster ripping and possibly higher file size (though I'm guessing not much since I'm encoding but not doing much compression) - is that right?
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post #26 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 10:03 AM
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h.265 will produce a smaller file size while retaining equal quality over h.264 but it takes much longer to render so there's a benefit there using h.265. In the case of 3D since you're going from frame packing to half resolution and here we are comparing the original MVC file which has a bit rate of 30 mbps MVC (according to Blu-ray.com) but that's for the base file and the dependent file (right view). The right view is generally about 50 percent less than the left in file size. When going to a single stream like side by side you don't need as much bit rate so that was my only point there, you can treat it like a 2D rip at that point which doesn't require both streams. Half resolution 3D methods discard half the data anyway so that was my point on rendering these with 1:1 settings, it really isn't the same thing anyway if you understand the original file is actually two files so you can't technically get 1:1 quality.

In the settings, I think CRF 18 is default setting and I've tried higher but I don't see any difference, just larger size. I generally just use h.264 because that's what I've been using. H.265 will conserve space while retaining same quality as h.264 but it takes about twice as long to render so if you don't mind the wait and don't have a problem playing the files, stick with h.265. But either encoding I doubt you would notice the difference between the max setting and the default.

23 gb seems high for h.265. I would say you could go lower like 15gb and you still wouldn't notice the difference. It would save some space and time. But up to you. It isn't like you did anything wrong there with your methods. I just notice the file size seems overly large for a half res. rip and using h.265. I generally don't go any bigger than that and I've only used h.264 so far and to me the quality looks pretty close to Blu ray, this has been comparing on a 1080p passive screen and active PJ. I generally use top/bottom because it's higher quality on the passive screen and the active PJ it doesn't matter, it's equal on that screen either way side by side or top/bottom. But if you have 4K then side by side will be 960x1080p per eye. If it's only 1080p then your screen reduces that down to 960x540p per eye. 4K screen you can send it either. If you just have a 1080p passive then I would use top/bottom only so your screen doesn't reduce the resolution in half.

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post #27 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah, I think maybe you missed one thing - I'm not doing a half size - I'm doing FULL size. Yes, it's side by side, but with full size resolution... Thus the larger file size of 23gb and the resulting image that is (so far as I can tell on a 65" Oled TV) just as good as playing straight off the blu-ray.

I think I understand the difference now between h.265 and h.264 which I didn't really before other than knowing h.265 was the newer of the two. Thanks for the explanation!
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post #28 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 11:41 AM
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Ok, side by side full, that will definitely make a difference and account for the larger size. I thought you were doing half, sorry. And that actually looks about right for full resolution, h265 is saving you some space there. H.264 would be somewhere around 30gb or more with max settings, it would render quicker though.

Something else. I use CRF vs variable bit rate. CRF is generally what most use as the VBR really needs a 2-pass to get the best encoding while CRF only needs one pass. I used to use VBR up until a few years ago but switched to constant since everyone else seemed to be using it. Since you're using max settings you probably won't see any difference but I always use it now.

So you're side by side full render is 3840x1080? Does it play ok via USB, any stuttering?

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post #29 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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The specific resulting resolution is 3840 x 1036 (Not sure why 1036 instead of 1080). I played the whole movie start to finish and it played perfectly smooth and beautifully with no hiccups, skips, or stuttering and in full DTS-HD sound - like I said, no different than playing from Blu-Ray Disc - my TV of course upscales to 4K and it was stunning. My TV specifically has one USB-3 port and I used a high speed USB-3 thumb drive from SanDisk (my preferred memory brand). I assume this could be affected by the device playing it as well. I'm playing it on an LG OLED 65E6P so it's a very new TV and is set up to play almost any file type (except ISO, of course).

I actually only used one-pass with h.265 because I assumed encoding at the highest possible custom quality requires very little to no processing since it's not having to do so much analyzing about what's okay to drop or not. The result seemed to be great and the file size is actually a little larger than I originally stated - it's 25gb. The entire disc is only like 44gb which includes an additional movie stream that I think is for 2D viewing, plus some extras/special features stuff so it seems there is little to no actual compression going on in the encoding which is why I figured 1-pass would be fine.

I had previously tried CRF a few times in my test but it seems that CRF is more fitting if you actually want to compress since it seems to do a better job (maybe - debatable of course) of analyzing the frames for compression. But when I did CRF at 0 (basically no compression) it still took FOREVER to encode - I think actually longer than 2-Pass VBR. That's why, since I'm really looking for a digital "copy" w/no compression I decided to try VBR on highest possibly quality with one pass which seemed to work great.
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post #30 of 37 Old 04-19-2017, 12:26 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the 1st pass is to examine the data, the 2nd pass is for the data to interpolate. Encode 1 pass and let the display interpolate on the fly. Doing it twice would be redundant. I also think a modern display will interpolate more accurately than the guesswork software does and prevent false information from being recorded. Keep in mind, I prefer SOE (motion interpolation) and it's on for every source.
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