The Official AVS 3D Console Games Topic! - Page 32 - AVS Forum
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post #931 of 955 Old 11-29-2012, 09:10 AM
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I'm new to 3D and recently completed my man cave (running a 3D capable Epson 6010 projector @ 120" along with x-box 360 and PS3). Have a couple questions for the experts!

About a year ago this thread listed the then current top rated 3D games for either console. Wondering what you guys would think makes that same list today?

Also, is there a benefit to using one console over the other when it comes to 3D gaming or is it just a matter of which controller is preferred? I've always gamed on Xbox and recently picked up the PS3 mainly for the blue-ray and 3D options now that I have the projector.. I didn't realize until a few minutes ago that x-box 360 could render 3D as well so now I'm curious which one to buy 3D games for...

Lastly, about that same time last year I also read that it was beneficial to alter the 3d screen size from the PS3 console dashboard as it increased the depth of 3D objects (in some games but not all games). Is this statement still true or have patches negated the need to do this? I'm wondering if I need to tinker with the screen size on the console or just leave it at my true screen size of 120".
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post #932 of 955 Old 11-30-2012, 04:54 AM
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If a cross platform game supports 3D on both, they tend to look just as good, and usually perform a bit better on 360. But there are still far more 3D titles for PS3.

The screen size setting is still an issue....some games don't have 3D depth sliders that go far enough. Reducing the screen size setting lets you get some more depth. Some games like uncharted 3, child of Eden and sly collection just don't have enough depth without tweaking. But games like de blob 2 and god of war collection have really strong 3D on the lowest setting. There's no standards whatsoever.

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post #933 of 955 Old 11-30-2012, 11:48 AM
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Sounds like they're not real keen on how it actually works. IMO, the "proper" method of separation would be that the Maximum setting should be 60-65mm apart (roughly the distance between your eyes). It's pretty damned easy to calculate that based on screen size. My PC seems to do it quite well.. setting it to 100% is almost exactly the proper distance. It's as if my computer somehow knows that I have a 22" monitor... amazing technology. Why the consoles can't do the same thing is beyond me.

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post #934 of 955 Old 11-30-2012, 02:32 PM
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My understanding is that the PS3's screen size setting alters the amount of horizontal separation between the two images (Horizontal Image Translation or HIT). This is a quality control setting for pre-rendered 3D content (like movies) to keep the original convergence settings no matter the size of the 3D display.

For in-game rendered objects in 3D video games, increasing the HIT (done by lowering the screen size setting) increases the separation of the in-game virtual cameras, causing stronger depth, in addition to alterering convergence, pushing the image deeper behind the plane of the screen.

For pre-rendered video (like cutscenes or some background environments), the separation of the cameras is fixed, so depth stays the same and only the convergence value changes. For reprojection techniques, the 3D is created with algorithms from only one camera viewpoint, so again, only convergence changes.
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post #935 of 955 Old 12-06-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BleedOrange11 View Post

To the best of my limited knowledge, minor vertical misalignment doesn't look odd with 3D glasses on, but it causes a sense of "unexplainable" eyestrain. It should be obvious with the glasses off though.
There are some anaglyph examples of vertical misalignment in this BD review for Creature from the Black Lagoon.
http://www.3dfilmarchive.com/an-in-depth-look-at-creature-from-the-black-lagoon-1

I did some more testing with BO2. The misalignment varies with depth. That is, the stereo pairs are not misaligned on output, but rather the cameras are misaligned. So that with greater depth, the horizontal AND vertical parallax increases. The parallax shift is equal in intensity in the vertical and horizontal. So looking at it with a 45degree head tilt actually produces the appropriate affect with no eye stain (with the exception of the on-screen effects like player names and objective targets which only receive horizontal parallax).

The fact that this only affects 360 and not PS3 is most curious. It means that the 3D cameras are likely not established in the game engine (which would likely have identical code in PS3 and 360), but rather dealt with in graphics driver post processing similar to NVidia’s technique for PC games.


Again, please add your voice to the thread on the official Activision official forums.
http://community.callofduty.com/message/413635242
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post #936 of 955 Old 12-06-2012, 10:14 AM
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I just signed up and posted on your community thread there, as I also see the exact same issue. Can't believe this has not already been addressed. Did they do no testing in 3D on the 360?
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post #937 of 955 Old 12-06-2012, 11:55 AM
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Thanks so much for adding your comment, mikemav.


Yeah, I'm surprised that it got through quality control.

I'm not optimistic it will be fixed soon as the official community forum is being hammered with complaints related to network lag and weapon balancing.

I wish they'd seperate general complaints from actual technical glitches, but alas the 3d thread will be buried in a sea of complaints over the same lag and weapon issues. If more people post in the thread we may be able to keep it visible.
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post #938 of 955 Old 12-06-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Thanks so much for adding your comment, mikemav.


Yeah, I'm surprised that it got through quality control.

I'm not optimistic it will be fixed soon as the official community forum is being hammered with complaints related to network lag and weapon balancing.

I wish they'd seperate general complaints from actual technical glitches, but alas the 3d thread will be buried in a sea of complaints over the same lag and weapon issues. If more people post in the thread we may be able to keep it visible.

Yeah, honestly that's why I didn't post or send any bug reports. A game of this magnitude is going to get a gajillion bug reports and it'll just get lost in the mix.

I did email eurogamer, who had noticed as well, and they did mention it in their digital foundry analysis. I was figuring that would have more visibility than any bug report.

I'm sure there's a single variable somewhere in the code that's set incorrectly.

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post #939 of 955 Old 12-08-2012, 08:56 AM
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Still broken with the latest update.

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post #940 of 955 Old 01-01-2013, 07:08 AM
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I fianlly got a response from Activsion (via twitter). I was told they will pass on the problem to the developers. I'm so pleased to finally get a response. Hopefully it will be fixed in the next title update!


Mods can we please sticky this thread? It was stickied before the big forum update.
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post #941 of 955 Old 01-17-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

360. I was looking for the artifacts but I couldn't really see it. There was a real lack of depth in the environment, but your own gun is stretched to ridiculous proportions. Doesn't look natural at all. There was something about the player tags over their heads that my eyes/brain were just totally rejecting. I've played Crysis in 3D which I know was reprojection - I didn't find it as offensive as this.

I can normally play games in 3D for hours. And I'm not even exaggerating - but I couldn't take even 5 minutes of this. My eyes were burning.

I don't understand why they had to screw it up when they had one of the best 3D implementations already. The first one looked great.
This is a shame especially since they demonstrate the desire to promote further 3D gaming by also encoding RED/CYAN for those who cant yet afford a 3D TV. They aint that cheap!!!

Have you tried switching 'view modes'; such as 'theater', 'sports', and 'action'. They may be something else on your TV. I have noticed that many FPS games to much better, expecially on the text and HUD artifacts on the top and bottom, when I put my view mode to 'SPORTS'. Maybe something tells the TV about the text and HUD artifacts on the top and bottom; like the score board and timer when watching soprting events... Im sure thats not how it works but it does seem to look better when switched to the 'SPORTS' mode.

Pass it on... George Washington, and other patriots, didnt say 'just dont tell them our names.'

They stood in the face of CERTAIN death and said "We are the founders of America... we are not an anonymous group of obscurity and we WILL produce the greatest nation in the world!!!"
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post #942 of 955 Old 01-26-2013, 07:39 AM
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Blops 2 is finally fixed, and I can confirm.

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post #943 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 02:30 PM
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Okay, so I finally got a 3D TV and I've been fiddling with some 3D PS3 games. Unfortunately, I only have a few games that support 3D, and not all of them very well. I'm also still figuring out the settings on the TV itself (I've figured out that putting it in "Game" mode is essential, otherwise it does something wonky with the 3D effect).

As much as I was looking forward to Gran Turismo, I've also noticed that racing games don't tend to benefit as much from 3D as you'd expect. It was nice when using the outside-the-car view, but otherwise the effect was barely noticeable, even at maximum depth. It's just the way they're made, I suppose. Wipeout was the same way, I preferred the 1080p60 original to the 720p30 3D version.

Assassin's Creed III turned out to be a big disappointment. Which is sad, because those games would otherwise lend themselves quite well to 3D (I've found that third-person action/adventure games on PC tend to benefit from 3D the most, like Just Cause or the Arkham games). But I found the effect to be very shallow, with too much resolution sacrificed to make the 3D effect, which made the whole picture look very soft (especially coming off playing it on PC at full 1080p). I also noticed some visible distortion around the character, which I can only assume is the result of reprojection, since it's the only title I played that has that artifact visible. That might not be such a problem if the character wasn't, literally, the center of attention for the user. Having him surrounded by what looked like a force field was too distracting. This one actually irks me the most because of how expansive the environments are. I was hoping for something as incredible as Just Cause 2 on PC in terms of 3D scale, and instead I get this low-res distorted mess.

Oddly enough, the best implementation I've seen so far is Hot Shots Golf: Out of Bounds. I hadn't played the game in years, but I saw it had 3D support, so I figured what the hell. It renders natively and doesn't seem to sacrifice anything noticeable to create the 3D (it's maybe a touch softer, but not nearly as bad as AC3 was). It's my favorite 3D PS3 game so far.

On a side note, I'm wondering why anyone would bother changing the screen size.. in most of the games I've played so far, setting the 3D effect to maximum in-game puts separation at around eye-distance apart, and you really don't want to go any further than that. The system's smart enough to know what the correct "maximum" setting is based on the screen size (my computer's the same way.. 100% effect is almost exactly eye-distance apart, despite the difference in screen size).

The difference would, I suppose, be different on titles that use reprojection instead of rendering the 3D natively. But then all you're doing is increasing the size of the visual distortion and artifacts from the conversion. AC3's separation was much lower than the other games I tried, and I'd hate to think what it would have looked like at even higher settings.

What do you think are the odds of the PS4 supporting full 3D for every title right out of the box? Wishful thinking, I suppose. Might as well wish for full 1080p on every title, and that's probably not gonna happen, either.

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post #944 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 02:46 PM
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I don't think it's wishful thinking at all. I bet they'll even mandate it.

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post #945 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 02:56 PM
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I'm trying not to keep my expectations too high... hehe.

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post #946 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 03:09 PM
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Well, there's precedent for it. Sony made all their first party studios support 3D. Both mandated HD from the start.

The requirements to run a game at 1080P are very close to the requirements to run in 720P/3D. It's not very difficult for devs to implement either, they just needed power the current gen simply doesn't have, to do it right. So pretty often they did it wrong.

But next gen that goes away, so even if its not mandated, it'll be widely supported, especially given there will be more and more 3D TVs out there. Count on it.

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post #947 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 03:23 PM
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Seriously, all first-party titles? I didn't know that.

Still, we'll see. At some random point in the next four months or so, whenever Sony decides to announce (word is they'll be announcing first, pre-E3, everyone expects Microsoft to announce at E3).

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post #948 of 955 Old 01-30-2013, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Seriously, all first-party titles? I didn't know that.

Still, we'll see. At some random point in the next four months or so, whenever Sony decides to announce (word is they'll be announcing first, pre-E3, everyone expects Microsoft to announce at E3).

I don't know if it was *all* of them, but there was clearly a huge push internally at Sony starting 2-3 years ago. Killzone, wipeout, stardust, resistance, motorstorm (3 of them in 3D now), uncharted, ratchet, GT5....I can barely think of a PS3 exclusive that isn't 3D. And not only does Sony have the most 3D, but they also made a point to use true stereoscopy instead of reprojection. So someone clearly cares beyond just checking the 3D box off.

Even if you hear less about it, especially because the press seems to love to hate on 3D - Sony is going to carry that push forward. The current gen was really just the sneak preview, the true 3D consoles come out this fall. Whether or not they mandate it almost doesn't matter....almost every game will support it, because there's really no reason not to.

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post #949 of 955 Old 01-31-2013, 04:32 PM
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Well, I'm all for that.

Of the games I've played, most of them appear to be native, only AC3 seems to be using reprojection. That's an assumption based on the narrower separation that game has compared to the others, and the artifacts I'm seeing. There's some visible distortion around Connor when he's walking around, like he's surrounded by heat haze. It's visible across his entire mesh, including the bow on his back, which makes the string (which is normally practically invisible anyway) appear thick and made of glass. It's pretty distracting. It shows up on other objects that are a good distance away from the background (like if you're on a tall building), but is mostly visible around Connor in the middle of the screen. Am I correct in assuming that's an artifact of reprojection?

I have heard some reports lately that "no one is buying 3D televisions", but that doesn't really seem to be the case. Hell, most TVs these days support 3D in some fashion anyway. While Best Buy only had two models for display with 3D, I'd wager at least half of the sets on the wall were 3D, maybe even most of them except for the budget models. And the prices are reasonable.. I picked up a 60" 3D TV last week for less than I paid for my old 47" TV five years ago.

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post #950 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 04:47 AM
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I think that you will notice all 3d games will look better on passive 3d TV's; including having a brighter image.

I had both and prefer the passive set for 3d gaming and Target Department stores have a 47" LG 3D tv for only 599.00 (60khz)
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post #951 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 10:06 AM
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I think that you will notice all 3d games will look better on passive 3d TV's; including having a brighter image.

I had both and prefer the passive set for 3d gaming and Target Department stores have a 47" LG 3D tv for only 599.00 (60khz)
Passive is a must for gaming. Active shutter flicker is the worst in fast-paced content like games!

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post #952 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Of the games I've played, most of them appear to be native, only AC3 seems to be using reprojection. That's an assumption based on the narrower separation that game has compared to the others, and the artifacts I'm seeing. There's some visible distortion around Connor when he's walking around, like he's surrounded by heat haze. It's visible across his entire mesh, including the bow on his back, which makes the string (which is normally practically invisible anyway) appear thick and made of glass. It's pretty distracting. It shows up on other objects that are a good distance away from the background (like if you're on a tall building), but is mostly visible around Connor in the middle of the screen. Am I correct in assuming that's an artifact of reprojection?
Yes, those are the telling signs of reprojection. Here are a some others that I've read use reprojection.

Assassin's Creed: Revelations
Assassin's Creed III
Batman: Arkham City
Crysis
Crysis 2
Disney Epic Mickey 2: The Power of Two
Enslaved: Odyssey to the West (Pigsy's Perfect 10)
Mortal Kombat
SOCOM 4: U.S. Navy SEALs
Silent Hill: Downpour
Thor: God of Thunder
Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Future Soldier
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post #953 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 12:41 PM
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Passive is a must for gaming. Active shutter flicker is the worst in fast-paced content like games!

I've only seen movies on passive, and it was the worst instance of crosstalk I've ever seen. I don't think I could deal with that on games. Of course, I have DLP, so there's no crosstalk at all, but maybe if I had LED or plasma, the levels of crosstalk would be similar anyway and passive might offer some advantage.

Enjoying BF4 on the PS4, bugs and all.
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post #954 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 03:38 PM
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I've only seen movies on passive, and it was the worst instance of crosstalk I've ever seen. I don't think I could deal with that on games. Of course, I have DLP, so there's no crosstalk at all, but maybe if I had LED or plasma, the levels of crosstalk would be similar anyway and passive might offer some advantage.
Yes, DLP is excellent for crosstalk, but passive is better than the average active shutter set. With passive I only notice crosstalk in movies a very tiny fraction of the time, whereas with active shutter I notice the flapping shutter tearing in games like Motorstorm constantly.

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post #955 of 955 Old 02-02-2013, 06:29 PM
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I've only seen movies on passive, and it was the worst instance of crosstalk I've ever seen.
Sounds like you're doing something wrong, then. Passive does have a narrower vertical viewing angle than active, the effect won't work if you're viewing it from too high or too low, or sitting too close to the screen. I've got a 60" passive screen viewed from about 10' at right around mid-screen height, and I get absolutely zero crosstalk of any kind, in movies or games. I'm constantly amazed at the picture quality on this thing.

The complete lack of any side effects is actually a bit worrisome, I'm afraid of screwing something up if I go for a 8-hour marathon gaming session and forget that I'm playing in 3D because I never get a headache or eye strain. Although I guess as long as I don't get a headache or eye strain, then I guess there's nothing to worry about.

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