2010 ESPN 3D NCAA College Football - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 238 Old 11-06-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wiggo View Post
Tried to watch the Boise State game, got a message saying it was $5.99. WTF?? When did ESPN3D go PPV?
Wow, thats crazy. I have not turned on a game in a couple of weeks due to the poor picture.
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post #182 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 12:01 PM
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I record and watch all of these back. It seemed to me that the most recent Boise State game was the worst PQ I have seen yet this season. Maybe it was the blue turf, maybe it was the gray skies, but this game simply did not look clear except for a few choice shots. Is the equipment getting worn down? I assume they are down a camera already thanks to the freakin idiot yahoos at the Wisconsin game. When they played back the highlight clip I could really see a difference between some of the games earlier this season and this one which would indicate it wasn't an issue with the method of broadcast but the broadcast material of the Boise State game itself.

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post #183 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 12:45 PM
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1280 x 360 per eye, kind of gives a new meaning to ESPN 360. I really can't believe they would launch a new service in 2010 without using some variant of 1080p.

Do the ESPN 3D broadcasts at least seem properly composed for a 16:9 frame?

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post #184 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 03:22 PM
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Did anyone else experience severe lip sync on Saturdays game? This was my first game I have watched so I don't have a baseline as to the picture quality, but was blown away by the 3D. Uverse is my provider.
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post #185 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 05:10 PM
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Jimbo,
1280x360@60 fps is far better for action sports with horizontal action then 1920x1080@30fps.
When you watch footall on the weekends do your prefer to watch in on a 1080i/30fps station like CBS or NBC or on a 720P station like ABC, FOX or ESPN. I always prefer the 720p/60fps channels. I really don't care about how well I see the crowd in the stands on the other side of the field.
The only time I experience lip sync problems on commercial live broadcasts is when the broadcasting is getting the video and audio feed from another network or from a SD broadcast location elsewhere on their own network.
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post #186 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 05:30 PM
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hmm, I prefer 1080i/60 over 720P/60 for sports.
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post #187 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Jimbo,
1280x360@60 fps is far better for action sports with horizontal action then 1920x1080@30fps.
When you watch footall on the weekends do your prefer to watch in on a 1080i/30fps station like CBS or NBC or on a 720P station like ABC, FOX or ESPN. I always prefer the 720p/60fps channels. I really don't care about how well I see the crowd in the stands on the other side of the field.
The only time I experience lip sync problems on commercial live broadcasts is when the broadcasting is getting the video and audio feed from another network or from a SD broadcast location elsewhere on their own network.

Seriously? You must have some horrible 1080i stations...the 1080i stations here are head and shoulders above 720p.
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post #188 of 238 Old 11-08-2010, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CCsoftball7 View Post

Seriously? You must have some horrible 1080i stations...the 1080i stations here are head and shoulders above 720p.

Same here via D*. ESPN and ABC are just horrible on average.
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post #189 of 238 Old 11-09-2010, 12:22 PM
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My preference for HD football is CBS -> NBC -> FOX -> ESPN on ABC.

The 1080i broadcasts look markedly superior to the lower resolution 720p broadcasts on my 110" 1080p front projector. CBS looks better than NBC, probably because KFMB does not have any subchannels while my NBC O&O station has a weather subchannel and a Universal Sports subchannel. (NBC still looks far better than it did 2+ years ago when their HD backhaul was bit-starved.)

FOX looks better than ABC, both because FOX occasionally composes football for a 16:9 display and because the local affiliate can't muck up what FOX sends out through their nationwide distribution system.

ESPN on ABC looks the worst of all of the over the air HD football broadcasters. The grass looks blocky and seems to swim. There are black outlines around players in the distance shots as if they still are using analog-era heavy edge enhancement. You cannot see any detail in the crowd; the University of Texas - University of Oklahoma game looked like a big pink blur rather than the discrete red and white of the shirts the home crowd at Oklahoma were wearing. For some reason, close-up shots on ABC look pretty good. It seems like the distance shots on ABC are fuzzy, over-processed, or just messed up. Perhaps ESPN's graphics package adds to this problem. Add to all this the unfortunate fact that ESPN still composes their video shots for 4:3 center cut and takes up a third or more of the screen with annoying, opaque graphics and you end up with a pretty lousy viewing experience.

As for fast motion, I've never seen the vaunted advantage to 720p in fast motion. My Epson 1080 projector upconverts both 1080i and 720p to 1080p at 60 fps. I've sent HD content in native resolution from my Tivo Series 3 to my projector and I've used 1080i fixed in the past. In neither case could I perceive a temporal improvement with 720p over 1080i properly de-interlaced to 1080p.

I really want to see some advantage to 720p to justify the reduced static resolution. I just haven't seen it. I cannot imagine reducing ESPN's already paltry 720p to 360 3D and still calling it HD.

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post #190 of 238 Old 11-09-2010, 12:43 PM
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We will wait until this Friday so we can judge the NFL network in HD (it will be some game btw, it;s the battle between two 6-2 teams)
Agreed.
To me, ESPN is the worst, beaucou video noise and all.
CBS is simply the best.

For the latest ESPN 3d game last Saturday...
It's among the worst.
Looks like ESPN is heading into a wrong direction.

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post #191 of 238 Old 11-09-2010, 12:51 PM
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Here's a quick math exercise to get the static resolution on ESPN's 3D broadcasts. Obviously the following exercise does not fully take into account the temporal advantages of 60 fps progressive scan acquisition or the obvious 3D stereoscopic effect, but bear with me.

ESPN starts out with 1280 by 720 resolution for their regular HD broadcasts. Because they use a top and bottom 3D technology, the image sent to each eye gets cut in half to 1280 by 360, or 460,800 pixels per eye per frame.

I'm going to make some assumptions that ESPN's 3D broadcast is similar to ESPN's HD broadcast. If I am wrong, someone please correct me. ESPN's HD broadcasts are composed for a 4:3 center cut. Any actual game content in the 16:9 side wings of the 4:3 center cut is there by accident. I will discount the appearance of actual content in the side wings as a serendipitous event. (It's like finding a dollar on the sidewalk when you are out for a walk: awfully pleasant, but pretty damned rare.) Take away the extra content on the sides of a widescreen presentation and you get 1.33 divided by 1.78, or slightly less than 75% of the available screen content.

But wait, there's more! Or less, actually. ESPN's intrusive, opaque on screen graphics take up as much as one-third of the screen. Sure, there's some grass below the opaque update bar at the bottom of the screen, but the shots are composed with the actual content you want to see above the status bar. This leaves us with two-thirds of the remaining screen for the game that we are watching, rather than the other game that some guy elsewhere has bet money on. This gives us 2/3 times 3/4, or only half the available screen space actually intentionally composed for the football game that I wanted to watch rather than onscreen graphics and mostly unused 16:9 side wings.

Thus it would appear that a regular HD football game on ABC has only 460,800 remaining for the game that I actually wanted to watch. If ESPN 3D has frame composition and graphic intrusion comparable to ESPN HD, we are left with only 230,400 pixel per eye per frame. Keep in mind that 480 standard def, nominally 640 by 480, would offer 307,200 pixels in a 4:3 arrangement if they would keep the darn graphics off the screen. Compare this with the 2,073,600 pixel resolution of a full HD 1080p display!

In all seriousness, if ESPN 3D composes the frame for 16:9 displays and uses less intrusive graphics than ESPN HD I would love to hear about it. Even so, I would not expect less intrusive graphics to last for very long. It is hard to resist the demands of the lowest common denominator for dancing robots during their football games.

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post #192 of 238 Old 11-10-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjvmec View Post

i think ESPN is the devil...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboG View Post

My preference for HD football is CBS -> NBC -> FOX -> ESPN on ABC.

The 1080i broadcasts look markedly superior to the lower resolution 720p broadcasts on my 110" 1080p front projector. CBS looks better than NBC, probably because KFMB does not have any subchannels while my NBC O&O station has a weather subchannel and a Universal Sports subchannel. (NBC still looks far better than it did 2+ years ago when their HD backhaul was bit-starved.)

FOX looks better than ABC, both because FOX occasionally composes football for a 16:9 display and because the local affiliate can't muck up what FOX sends out through their nationwide distribution system.

ESPN on ABC looks the worst of all of the over the air HD football broadcasters. The grass looks blocky and seems to swim. There are black outlines around players in the distance shots as if they still are using analog-era heavy edge enhancement. You cannot see any detail in the crowd; the University of Texas - University of Oklahoma game looked like a big pink blur rather than the discrete red and white of the shirts the home crowd at Oklahoma were wearing. For some reason, close-up shots on ABC look pretty good. It seems like the distance shots on ABC are fuzzy, over-processed, or just messed up. Perhaps ESPN's graphics package adds to this problem. Add to all this the unfortunate fact that ESPN still composes their video shots for 4:3 center cut and takes up a third or more of the screen with annoying, opaque graphics and you end up with a pretty lousy viewing experience.

As for fast motion, I've never seen the vaunted advantage to 720p in fast motion. My Epson 1080 projector upconverts both 1080i and 720p to 1080p at 60 fps. I've sent HD content in native resolution from my Tivo Series 3 to my projector and I've used 1080i fixed in the past. In neither case could I perceive a temporal improvement with 720p over 1080i properly de-interlaced to 1080p.

I really want to see some advantage to 720p to justify the reduced static resolution. I just haven't seen it. I cannot imagine reducing ESPN's already paltry 720p to 360 3D and still calling it HD.

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Same here via D*. ESPN and ABC are just horrible on average.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiopho View Post

We will wait until this Friday so we can judge the NFL network in HD (it will be some game btw, it;s the battle between two 6-2 teams)
Agreed.
To me, ESPN is the worst, beaucou video noise and all.
CBS is simply the best.

For the latest ESPN 3d game last Saturday...
It's among the worst.
Looks like ESPN is heading into a wrong direction.

Wow, there is just no love for ESPN .............at all.......
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post #193 of 238 Old 11-10-2010, 10:59 AM
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Wow, there is just no love for ESPN .............at all.......

Yeah, and no one has mentioned how much of the annual increase in your cable bill is attributable to the various ESPN channels.

ESPN HD and ESPN 2 HD have some great games. They have a virtual lock on college football bowl games starting this year. However, ESPNEWS and ESPN Classic are most unfortunate wastes of bandwidth. Likewise, it seems like the secondary audio program would make ESPN Deportes redundant.

Actually, I may just have come up with a brilliant idea! Why not get rid of ESPNEWS and ESPN Classic and use the recovered bandwidth to show ESPN HD and ESPN 2 HD in 1080p, maybe even 1080p per-eye 3D? ESPN could free up back haul space on their satellites by getting rid of these unnecessary channels and use their existing carriage space on local cable systems to secure sufficient bandwidth for a pair of true 1080p HD sports channels.

As more people consider cutting the cord with their cable or satellite provider, ESPN will offer cable customers something they simply cannot get over the air: 1080p sports, properly composed for widescreen displays, with headlining games offered in 3D. A change-over like this might be good enough to actually justify ESPN's next exorbitant rate hike. What do you guys think, would you give up ESPNEWS and ESPN Classic to get full resolution HD on the channels that actually show live sporting events?

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post #194 of 238 Old 11-11-2010, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboG View Post

In all seriousness, if ESPN 3D composes the frame for 16:9 displays and uses less intrusive graphics than ESPN HD I would love to hear about it. Even so, I would not expect less intrusive graphics to last for very long. It is hard to resist the demands of the lowest common denominator for dancing robots during their football games.

So, in essence, you're complaining about something you've never seen?

ESPN 3D uses special 3D cameras that are totally unrelated to what is being seen on ESPN/ESPN2. In order to view the broadcast you must have a 3D TV, so it would make no sense for them to film for non-16:9 displays, as you cannot properly view 3D on a 4:3 set. As for the graphics, all I've seen is a small score box at the top. That's right - no scrolling bottom line like the regular channels.

I have no problem with people complaining about something that they don't like. But to bash it without ever experiencing it is a bit ridiculous.

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post #195 of 238 Old 11-12-2010, 09:08 AM
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Is there a 3D game this week?
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post #196 of 238 Old 11-12-2010, 10:02 AM
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Is there a 3D game this week?

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post #197 of 238 Old 11-13-2010, 08:09 AM
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Wow. ESPN 3D just updated the schedule and announced lots of games:

Thu Nov 25 0:00PM ESTBoston College vs. Texas A&M
Thu Nov 25 2:30PM ESTWisconsin vs. Manhattan
Thu Nov 25 7:00PM ESTGeorgia vs. Notre Dame
Thu Nov 25 9:00PM ESTTemple vs. California
Fri Nov 26 0:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 2:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 5:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 7:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 11:00AM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 1:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 4:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 7:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old

Looks like there will be rebroadcasts of certain of the games. Still fun. Nothing for the upcoming weekend listed.
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post #198 of 238 Old 11-13-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advocate2 View Post

Wow. ESPN 3D just updated the schedule and announced lots of games:

Thu Nov 25 0:00PM ESTBoston College vs. Texas A&M
Thu Nov 25 2:30PM ESTWisconsin vs. Manhattan
Thu Nov 25 7:00PM ESTGeorgia vs. Notre Dame
Thu Nov 25 9:00PM ESTTemple vs. California
Fri Nov 26 0:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 2:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 5:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Fri Nov 26 7:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 11:00AM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 1:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 4:30PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old Spice Classic
Sun Nov 28 7:00PM ESTFeast Week presented by Lowe's: 2010 Old

Looks like there will be rebroadcasts of certain of the games. Still fun. Nothing for the upcoming weekend listed.

Its all basketball
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post #199 of 238 Old 11-13-2010, 02:09 PM
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Do we need a sticky for ESPN 3D sports other than College football?
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post #200 of 238 Old 11-16-2010, 02:12 PM
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Can we get off the ESPN bashing? Half this thread is comparisons between the major sports networks and their 2d broadcast quality. This is the 3d section guys.

Let me tell you one thing about ESPN. They were one of the first to broadcast in HD and they are just about the only ones broadcasting in 3D. ESPN is footing the bill to push technology and give us offerings. Are they in it for the money? Sure they are but at least the have the balls to put up and help perfect a technology through the growing pains rather than sit back like CBS and offer nothing in wait until it's profitable for them.

Does ESPN3D look like crap?... sometimes. Ive also seen some shots I have been very impressed by. Sure, it doesn't compare to Imax Grand Canyon on Blu-Ray, but they are working within the limitations of their media and bandwidth. At least their arent afraid to be the pioneer.

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post #201 of 238 Old 11-17-2010, 08:06 AM
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Can we get off the ESPN bashing? Half this thread is comparisons between the major sports networks and their 2d broadcast quality. This is the 3d section guys.

Let me tell you one thing about ESPN. They were one of the first to broadcast in HD and they are just about the only ones broadcasting in 3D. ESPN is footing the bill to push technology and give us offerings. Are they in it for the money? Sure they are but at least the have the balls to put up and help perfect a technology through the growing pains rather than sit back like CBS and offer nothing in wait until it's profitable for them.

Does ESPN3D look like crap?... sometimes. Ive also seen some shots I have been very impressed by. Sure, it doesn't compare to Imax Grand Canyon on Blu-Ray, but they are working within the limitations of their media and bandwidth. At least their arent afraid to be the pioneer.

Very well said.................I agree!
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post #202 of 238 Old 11-25-2010, 04:21 PM
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ESPN 3D schedule updated to include Fiesta Bowl on Jan 1st and BCS National Championship game on Jan 10th.

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post #203 of 238 Old 01-06-2011, 11:25 PM
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Anybody notice ghosting during the ESPN 3D Basketball games .. I am not sure if I screwed up some setting but my TV (Bravia KDL55HX800) has a lot of ghosting issues during the relay.

Basically, it depends on the depth of the image being displayed .. I mean .. say if I notice ghosting near the audience during a game and if I adjust my 3D depth .. it goes away .. in turn the effect ripples down to the players now .. I just cant get images in all depth to have uniform clarity.

Any input to set this right would be great !
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post #204 of 238 Old 01-08-2011, 12:45 AM
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I got TimeWarner,am I gonna get charged extra if I order ESPN 3D ?
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post #205 of 238 Old 01-10-2011, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcc View Post

It's in the stream, i took the glasses off and still saw it every now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajibo View Post

I've only been watching a little bit off and on, and I don't know about more detail, but at least that awful flicker appears to be gone.

For me at least, the flicker (black flash) issue is still very much present on Comcast ESPN3D during the BCS NC game on right now. Anyone else still seeing it? As noted, it can be seen with or without glasses on, so it is not a glasses issue.

[EDIT - I would also note, as further evidence it is in the feed and not a hardware issue, that when the guide is on screen only the game video in the small preview window flickers. The guide does not flicker.]

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post #206 of 238 Old 01-10-2011, 07:24 PM
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I got TimeWarner,am I gonna get charged extra if I order ESPN 3D ?

IIRC TWC in Austin want's $10/month for just ESPN 3D.
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post #207 of 238 Old 01-10-2011, 07:25 PM
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For me at least, the flicker (black flash) issue is still very much present on Comcast ESPN3D during the BCS NC game on right now. Anyone else still seeing it? As noted, it can be seen with or without glasses on, so it is not a glasses issue.

[EDIT - I would also note, as further evidence it is in the feed and not a hardware issue, that when the guide is on screen only the game video in the small preview window flickers. The guide does not flicker.]

I've been watching ESPN 3D via DIRECTV and not seeing any video problems.
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post #208 of 238 Old 01-10-2011, 10:18 PM
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Great game, but it was probably the worst experience I've had watching a BIG game in a long time. I'm watching 2D until they get their act together.

I love watching Super Bowls, big College Bowl games, NBA Finals, etc. They always have lots of cameras with their best crews working. This game? Not. I've seen better coverage of high school games. They only have a few cameras, and they were in less than stellar positions. Plus the director, when he wasn't showing the sidelines or the stands, would switch camera angles at inopportune moments to make it more difficult to follow the action. That said, it would have been difficult to show a lot of replays because both teams were playing hurry-up offenses practically all the time.

I thought the PQ was actually pretty good. The 3D effect was pretty nice, and a couple times was really good. I was watching on DirecTV.

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post #209 of 238 Old 01-11-2011, 06:23 AM
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DennisR, what you're seeing now with the 3D games is exactly how the HD coverage of sports was when HDTV first started out. They had a seperate production/announcement crew and no where near the number of cameras or graphic that the SD coverage had. Hopefully they'll be able to figure out how to get back to a single production with all the bells and whistles in the near future.
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post #210 of 238 Old 01-11-2011, 06:34 AM
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Did anyone see the end of the game where the confetti flew all over?? There was a part where they were interviewing the coach and the 3-D effect on my Sammy was incredible!! There was even pop out effects!! Great PQ too!!

Great game!
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