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post #31 of 215 Old 06-30-2011, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I saw James Cameron promoting the Avatar 3D Blu-ray at a conference, and someone asked him whether the 3D effect needs to be adjusted for home viewing. He said that he felt no adjustments were needed from cinema to home. But perhaps other filmmakers/studios are taking a different approach?

If that is the case, it falls at odds with all the marketing for home 3D, which shows exaggerated images of things poking out of the TV screen.
Well then JC and I are in 100% agreement. No adjustments ( or as little as possible) ought to be made in 'converting' a movie for home exhibition. The onus of making the experience 'friendly' to home exhibition should fall entirely on the domestic viewer. The goal after all is to be able mimic a top notch (not mediocre) theatrical presentation, and a considerable investment in a projector, a screen, audio gear, a dedicated room, etc., shouldn't be compromised by distorted or dumbed-down source material. After all, record labels don't excise the lowest frequencies in an audio recording simply because most listeners don't have the requisite gear to accurately reproduce these frequencies.

BTW, have you checked out the credits in Despicable Me on your RS40?
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post #32 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I saw James Cameron promoting the Avatar 3D Blu-ray at a conference, and someone asked him whether the 3D effect needs to be adjusted for home viewing. He said that he felt no adjustments were needed from cinema to home. But perhaps other filmmakers/studios are taking a different approach?

If that is the case, it falls at odds with all the marketing for home 3D, which shows exaggerated images of things poking out of the TV screen.
That's because Cameron understands how stereography works. The formula for positioning an object in the z axis doesn't change based on how big the screen is or how close you sit to a screen. It's kind of like the aspect ratio where a 16 x 9 screen is 16 x 9 whether it is 160 ft. wide by 90 ft tall or 160 inches wide by 90 inches tall. Parallax z-axis positioning is a relative position based on a pyramidal cone where each corner of the base of the cone is an imaginary line from that corner to the center of your head where the apex of the cone passes through each eye lens, to be precise. Objects will always appear to be larger the closer they are, therefore an object must be quite small to be seen inside the frustum of the cone. If it's size extends beyond it will appear cut off. This is why a large image like a car cannot get too close or it will appear chopped off while a sword or cue stick can reach out and poke you in the face. An object will never extend outside that frustum and never pass to your side and behind you. It doesn't matter whether you are watching a big IMAX screen or a little 24" screen. The position is relative to the size of the screen and your distance to the screen. So, if you see an object that is located popout 50% between you and the screen in the theater, it will still be 50% distance on your 32" 3D monitor at home. Comfort zone- This will vary for different individuals but sitting too close to fill your peripheral vision will greatly reduce the popout effect distance, however it will increase eye strain because your eyes will be focusing attention to greatly diverged images, relative to sitting further away where the cone of vision has a narrower angle. A 60 degree angle on the cone is about maximum for 3D stereography.

What may need adjusting for the home theater vs. the big screen is camera motion as shaky cam on a big screen is far more jarring than on a small screen. In 3D this difference becomes even more annoying. Directors need to listen to the people to find out what they feel comfortable with. Personally, I find shooting 3D far more critical as to scene movement and transitions. Too fast and it can cause the 3D effect to come unglued so to speak. It's a tricky juggling act. We really don't know yet how the audience will react to many of the things they accepted in 2D when watching 3D.


If you want to really understand how this works, Get a copy of the text 3D Movie Making by Mendiburu. He has lots of drawings to go with the formulas that explain it all.
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post #33 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 06:04 AM
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Planet SOS (or is it SOS Planet?) has some GREAT pop out scenes, the snake in particular. I haven't seen this released on 3D BR yet, but it is available on Comcast.

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post #34 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 07:25 AM
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I saw "The Ultimate Wave Tahiti 3D" (Imax) recently on a 110" screen with a SIM2 Lumis 3D projector, and the pop out scenes were incredible and fun. There's one scene at the beginning where the solar system is floating out in the room with rotating planets and moons...a real breathtaking moment. Surfboard tips also extended into the room. This is a great demo disc for 3D. I wonder if these types of 3D moments can be equated to the ping pong of early stereo hi fi demonstrations or the 360 panning of quadraphonic?
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post #35 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenjabil View Post

Well then JC and I are in 100% agreement. No adjustments ( or as little as possible) ought to be made in 'converting' a movie for home exhibition. The onus of making the experience 'friendly' to home exhibition should fall entirely on the domestic viewer. The goal after all is to be able mimic a top notch (not mediocre) theatrical presentation, and a considerable investment in a projector, a screen, audio gear, a dedicated room, etc., shouldn't be compromised by distorted or dumbed-down source material.

How do you feel about soundtracks that get remixed for a near-field home environment?

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After all, record labels don't excise the lowest frequencies in an audio recording simply because most listeners don't have the requisite gear to accurately reproduce these frequencies.

The record labels have been terribly compressing dynamic range for years now, unfortunately. Google "loudness war" and you'll find reams of info on the subject.

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BTW, have you checked out the credits in Despicable Me on your RS40?

I don't have that disc, sadly. And I don't think it's one I'd be inclined to buy.

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post #36 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

How do you feel about soundtracks that get remixed for a near-field home environment?



The record labels have been terribly compressing dynamic range for years now, unfortunately. Google "loudness war" and you'll find reams of info on the subject.



I don't have that disc, sadly. And I don't think it's one I'd be inclined to buy.

Fair enough...I should have been more specific in my post. I'm referring here exclusively to recordings of unamplified acoustic music (classical, jazz, etc.), as opposed to soundtracks or horribly dynamically compressed popular music), where again, the objective is to allow the end user with requisite equipment and set-up, etc. to mimic (as much as possible) a live unamplified acoustic event (with its full dynamic range imaging, layering, and '3D' soundstage, etc.) in the comfort of his/her home.

Despicable Me isn't a perfect disc on the RS40 (there is a bit of ghosting on some of the oranges, etc. - although that is the RS40's fault rather than a disc mastering issue), but the popout moments in the credits are indeed a treat. Unless you're opposed to watching animation, I wouldn't entirely dismiss it - it's actually quite amusing.
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post #37 of 215 Old 07-01-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

That's because Cameron understands how stereography works. The formula for positioning an object in the z axis doesn't change based on how big the screen is or how close you sit to a screen. It's kind of like the aspect ratio where a 16 x 9 screen is 16 x 9 whether it is 160 ft. wide by 90 ft tall or 160 inches wide by 90 inches tall. Parallax z-axis positioning is a relative position based on a pyramidal cone where each corner of the base of the cone is an imaginary line from that corner to the center of your head where the apex of the cone passes through each eye lens, to be precise. Objects will always appear to be larger the closer they are, therefore an object must be quite small to be seen inside the frustum of the cone. If it's size extends beyond it will appear cut off. This is why a large image like a car cannot get too close or it will appear chopped off while a sword or cue stick can reach out and poke you in the face. An object will never extend outside that frustum and never pass to your side and behind you. It doesn't matter whether you are watching a big IMAX screen or a little 24" screen. The position is relative to the size of the screen and your distance to the screen. So, if you see an object that is located popout 50% between you and the screen in the theater, it will still be 50% distance on your 32" 3D monitor at home. Comfort zone- This will vary for different individuals but sitting too close to fill your peripheral vision will greatly reduce the popout effect distance, however it will increase eye strain because your eyes will be focusing attention to greatly diverged images, relative to sitting further away where the cone of vision has a narrower angle. A 60 degree angle on the cone is about maximum for 3D stereography.

What may need adjusting for the home theater vs. the big screen is camera motion as shaky cam on a big screen is far more jarring than on a small screen. In 3D this difference becomes even more annoying. Directors need to listen to the people to find out what they feel comfortable with. Personally, I find shooting 3D far more critical as to scene movement and transitions. Too fast and it can cause the 3D effect to come unglued so to speak. It's a tricky juggling act. We really don't know yet how the audience will react to many of the things they accepted in 2D when watching 3D.


If you want to really understand how this works, Get a copy of the text 3D Movie Making by Mendiburu. He has lots of drawings to go with the formulas that explain it all.

Excellent post Don. Very informative/helpful.
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post #38 of 215 Old 02-15-2012, 03:47 PM
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I enjoyed the posts on this subject as I have noticed that the pop-outs I see on my tv are not as great as those in the movies. I thought I would add to an old discussion.

Although the math may say the pop-outs are the same - I have never seen a pop out on my tv 47" that goes more than about a foot in front of the screen.
The maximum pop-out maximum seems very consistent.

I tried an experiment yesterday with the end credits of haunted castle. The cupid or what ever it is - is intended to hover right in front of you at the movies. On my tv it hovers about a foot in front of the screen. If I move closer - it doesn't appear to move (retract) very much. When I get close enough - it appears that I can touch it (about two to three feet away from the screen). I really feel the difference is screen size and the maximum pop-out distance is directly proportional to that size. I know this may go against the quoted science but this is what I observed.

For those who have asked for a free example of pop-outs - I sugest LG 3D demo global on youtube. If the jet plane doesn't extend in front of your screen - you have a problem somewhere.
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post #39 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysto View Post

...... Although the math may say the pop-outs are the same - I have never seen a pop out on my tv 47" that goes more than about a foot in front of the screen.
The maximum pop-out maximum seems very consistent.

I tried an experiment yesterday with the end credits of haunted castle. The cupid or what ever it is - is intended to hover right in front of you at the movies. On my tv it hovers about a foot in front of the screen. If I move closer - it doesn't appear to move (retract) very much. When I get close enough - it appears that I can touch it (about two to three feet away from the screen). I really feel the difference is screen size and the maximum pop-out distance is directly proportional to that size. I know this may go against the quoted science but this is what I observed.............

I just watched the end of Haunted Castle (free on Comcast On-Demand) on my BDT210/Sharp 835U 3D TV. Cupid comes out of the screen ~ 50%. So when I'm sitting 6ft from the TV, he is out about 3ft. When I'm 3ft from the TV, he is out about 18in and I can "touch" him. If I get closer yet to the TV, I can actually get my hand behind him. BTW - It is funny watching him move as I move closer and further away from the TV screen.

So that leads me to believe that in order for a movie theater to get an image close enough for me to reach out and touch it, the pop-out must be a much higher percentage. If I'm sitting 50ft from the movie screen, to get the image 2ft in front of me, that would be a 96% pop-out (the image would be 25ft away with a 50% pop-out).

BTW - Haunted House is an excellent movie to experiment with pop-outs. The first time I watched it, I didn't notice the cupid because it "pops-out" after the animated part of the movie is over. When the rock concert scene comes on, the cupid floats in front of you for over five minutes. The whole time he is popping credit bubbles with his foot. Lots of time to see what happens to pop-outs when you change seating distance and viewing angles. You can also see content generated cross talk visible on bubbles on the extreme left and right sides and how the cross talk goes away as the bubbles move to the center. There is no cross talk on the cupid because he is always in the center of the screen.
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post #40 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 12:50 PM
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I noticed all the responses here were either telling folks what movies had the best pop out effects, whether everyone was able to view them or not. Or it was making comparisons to one product or another.

I think it comes down to a person's ability to relax their eyesite to view pop out effects. Just like with those "magic photos" where you cross your eyes just a bit and a sailboat appears. But it wouldn't long lasting for sure.

As one person mentioned it would be unnatural for an object to actually go beyond the screen as that would mean the object went through the lens of the camera. However a person could perceive that image as protruding, even though the guy next to him won't see that same effect.

In my experience, I do not see any pop out effects generally.
That said, there was a brief moment when the potato fish in IMAX under the sea looked like it popped out? And maybe the lanterns in Tangled?
Or I could have imagined it?
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post #41 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 01:36 PM
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When I was demoing TVs (specifically comparing my PN63C8000 versus the Panny Plasma), we were initially very let down by the 3D effect and pop-out of the Sammy running their demo disc versus the Panny running its demo disc that included a scene from Avatar.

I simply switched the demo discs and lo and behold, the "3Dness" and pop-out effects became immediately more pronounced and immersive and the two TVs were basically a tie.

Monsters vs. Aliens (the beginning with the galaxy is a nice effect, for example) has significantly more pop-out than Transformers DotM which had great general depth into the screen but only a little amount of pop-out.

The trailer for Pirates on Stranger Tides (I don't have the actual BD, though) that's on the Tron Legacy BD is impressive as well. Tron Legacy, sadly, had only modest pop-out and depth despite the combination of live action and CG... granted that was not filmed in

Overall, I guess I'm saying that the effects to me have all been related to the source material... some simply having substantially more 3Dness than others. However, I must admit that I've never had the same level of pop-out that I've seen when viewing 3D in the theater. I don't think that I've ever noticed anything pop-out further than perhaps 25% of the distance from the plane of the screen.

By the way, on the Sammy, you can adjust the level of depth--however, there is a tradeoff with crosstalk.
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post #42 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by McGriddle View Post

..... By the way, on the Sammy, you can adjust the level of depth--however, there is a tradeoff with crosstalk.

I believe the depth level adjustment applies to the TV's 2D to 3D conversion.

If you check out the 3D movie reviews on Amazon; Keith Niemeyer has very detailed reviews on ~ 50 3D movies. He counts the number of pop-outs, the percentage of each, and where they occur in the movie.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-...stRecentReview
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post #43 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by VFC View Post

I believe the depth level adjustment applies to the TV's 2D to 3D conversion.

If you check out the 3D movie reviews on Amazon; Keith Niemeyer has very detailed reviews on ~ 50 3D movies. He counts the number of pop-outs, the percentage of each, and where they occur in the movie.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-...stRecentReview

Sorry... you're right! The actual adjustment called "Depth" is for 2D -> 3D conversion.

The adjustment I'm thinking about in 3D mode is "3D Viewpoint." In my experience, it appears to mostly adjust the image to minimize crosstalk. However, it also seems to affect the depth ever so slightly as well, but that may be an artifact of improving / worsening crosstalk.

In the manual, it says "3D View point: The overall adjustment of 3D perspective." Not sure how to interpret that one!

Wow... thanks for the link to Keith's 3D reviews! He really took the time to count and gauge the effects. I'm impressed... though sad that I don't have the time to enjoy as many 3D BDs. His reviews are actually quite helpful.
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post #44 of 215 Old 02-16-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by lifecast2020 View Post

..............As one person mentioned it would be unnatural for an object to actually go beyond the screen as that would mean the object went through the lens of the camera. However a person could perceive that image as protruding, even though the guy next to him won't see that same effect.............

My analogy of watching 3D TV; is like I'm looking out a big window. My bezel is the wood trim. A pop-out is like someone pops their head in the window or pokes a pole into the room.
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post #45 of 215 Old 02-17-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SpyGuy311 View Post

We need a free demo video that has intentional pop-out so we can test. I'm certainly not going out to buy some crap movie just cause it has lots of pop-out.

I've watched several and as others, don't feel like anything breaks the plane of the TV screen.

This is a pretty good one to see some cool popouts . Lemme know how you like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUsqwaeDekM
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post #46 of 215 Old 02-17-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by VFC View Post

My analogy of watching 3D TV; is like I'm looking out a big window. My bezel is the wood trim. A pop-out is like someone pops their head in the window or pokes a pole into the room.

My analogy for pop-outs; is like trying to relax and watch a movie with a dozen annoying 8 year olds running in and out of the room while poking pool cues at my face

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post #47 of 215 Old 02-17-2012, 09:23 AM
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In my experience, I do not see any pop out effects generally.
That said, there was a brief moment when the potato fish in IMAX under the sea looked like it popped out? And maybe the lanterns in Tangled?
Or I could have imagined it?

Not imagining it. Those are great scenes - I could have pet that potato fish it was so close (and I sit 14' away from my projector screen).

Something to think about is that with 3D your eyes are being tricked and forced into resolving near/far objects very quickly. It can get tiring and is a good workout on the eyes. This is just a theory, but like exercise, the more you do it the easier it gets. I've found that the more I watch 3D, the less bothersome (and easier to resolve) action scenes are and I can last longer before my eyes feel strained.

FWIW, popout doesn't have to be cheesy and can be implemented in a way that augments the scene positively. I particularly liked in RE: Afterlife when the Umbrella peons were pointing their guns - they were sticking right out of the screen...at me! Really cool.

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post #48 of 215 Old 02-17-2012, 02:48 PM
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I have to concur with the recommendations of HAUNTED CASTLE - even with comcast's resolution/compression, the 3d popout effect in this title is as aggressive as i've seen. lots of depth AND popout like i have yet to see in any bluray...
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post #49 of 215 Old 02-17-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysto View Post

For those who have asked for a free example of pop-outs - I sugest LG 3D demo global on youtube. If the jet plane doesn't extend in front of your screen - you have a problem somewhere.


wow lots of pop out in that demo. any other good demos on youtube?
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post #50 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 06:30 AM
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Pop-outs have their uses. First - the wow factor. If someone comes over to see the 3D tv they want to see pop-outs.

In movies they can add to the effect. The hand reaching to the audience in Dial M for Murder would be an example.

They can bring you into the action. In House of Wax (at the theater) it appear that Charles Bronson comes from the audience into the screen. What a rush.

The theory that you are going through the lens doesn't work for me. What lens? A well done movie eliminates the lens and camera as it immerses you into the story.

A well designed pop out can do the same thing.

I am still curios to see if anyone has seen a pop-out on their tv that goes beyond 12-18 inches from their screen and if so what screen size you have.
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post #51 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysto View Post

I am still curios to see if anyone has seen a pop-out on their tv that goes beyond 12-18 inches from their screen and if so what screen size you have.

I can't say that I've seen anything really pop out more than about 25% (for me, that's about 24+ inches from the screen). My screen is 63" and I'm sitting at about 9 feet using active OEM glasses. However, we haven't watched everything out there like the IMAX films... so the distance is likely source related. Going to check out the LG Youtube demo asap!

Edit: I can't get my Samsung TV to switch to 3D mode (SBS) while in the Youtube app it seems. Anyone know a solution?
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post #52 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 01:54 PM
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I am still curios to see if anyone has seen a pop-out on their tv that goes beyond 12-18 inches from their screen and if so what screen size you have.

Potato cod scene in Imax Under the Sea. I have an Optoma HD3300 projector with ~112" screen when in 16:9 mode and that freaky looking thing is right in the room with me (at least 10 feet into the room and I sit around 14 feet from the screen). It's especially weird when you pause the scene. Very cool, though. Also, there's a water droplet in the beginning of Imax: Grand Canyon that comes right out of the screen and hovers for a bit.

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post #53 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 03:41 PM
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Zombie on the $3K and up Front Projector Forum posted that he has seen ALL domestic and import 3D titles and says Sammy's Adventure 3D BluRay has the best pop out effects of them all. Anyone seen it? He posted link to it: http://www.yesasia.com/us/sammys-adv...0-en/info.html
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post #54 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

Zombie on the $3K and up Front Projector Forum posted that he has seen ALL domestic and import 3D titles and says Sammy's Adventure 3D BluRay has the best pop out effects of them all. Anyone seen it? He posted link to it: http://www.yesasia.com/us/sammys-adv...0-en/info.html



Pretty damn good movie but majority of popups happen way too fast. Still a solid 3D movie. I bought it for $21.99 on vudu.
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post #55 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I saw "The Ultimate Wave Tahiti 3D" (Imax) recently on a 110" screen with a SIM2 Lumis 3D projector, and the pop out scenes were incredible and fun. There's one scene at the beginning where the solar system is floating out in the room with rotating planets and moons...a real breathtaking moment. Surfboard tips also extended into the room. This is a great demo disc for 3D. I wonder if these types of 3D moments can be equated to the ping pong of early stereo hi fi demonstrations or the 360 panning of quadraphonic?

I have a 108" screen and agree that ultimate wave is a very good 3d presentation. There is a scene where fish are so close you can reach out and touch them.

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post #56 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 04:36 PM
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I sometimes put a post-it note on the tv screen to easily see what's appearing in front or behind the screen. You may find there is more popout than you think.
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post #57 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 2D3D View Post

This is a pretty good one to see some cool popouts . Lemme know how you like it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUsqwaeDekM

WOW! Now thats some popout.
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post #58 of 215 Old 02-18-2012, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I'll be honest, I have almost never seen any "popout" on either of my 3D screens (JVC projector and Vizio TV). In almost all cases, the screen is a window that everything extends back from, even in cases where it seems obvious that the filmmakers intended for something to extend beyond the screen (such as gratuitous shots of bullets and throwing stars flying at the camera in Resident Evil Afterlife).

I have seen "popout" in theaters, however.

A big bright screen is needed for maximum popout, also fidging with s gamma on a cinema projector (we have a Barco 4k with a reald z-screen) can increase the appearance of pop out as it detaches objects from background. Having very good lenses also helps.

The reald polarised system is more efficient than the dolby color wheel therefore for single projector RealD creams Dolby, on two projectors the jury is still out.

But in general bigger+brighter=better negative parallax perception .
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post #59 of 215 Old 02-19-2012, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysto View Post

Pop-outs have their uses. First - the wow factor. If someone comes over to see the 3D tv they want to see pop-outs.

In movies they can add to the effect. The hand reaching to the audience in Dial M for Murder would be an example.

They can bring you into the action. In House of Wax (at the theater) it appear that Charles Bronson comes from the audience into the screen. What a rush.

The theory that you are going through the lens doesn't work for me. What lens? A well done movie eliminates the lens and camera as it immerses you into the story.

A well designed pop out can do the same thing.

I am still curios to see if anyone has seen a pop-out on their tv that goes beyond 12-18 inches from their screen and if so what screen size you have.

sammys adventure, the potatoe cod scene in under the sea, the tahiti documentary, and the LG youtube demo are a few that i can think of that had extreme pop out.

im using a cheapo 50 inch lg plasma that i got at frys for 600 with 2 free glasses.
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post #60 of 215 Old 02-19-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post


Potato cod scene in Imax Under the Sea. I have an Optoma HD3300 projector with ~112" screen when in 16:9 mode and that freaky looking thing is right in the room with me (at least 10 feet into the room and I sit around 14 feet from the screen). It's especially weird when you pause the scene. Very cool, though. Also, there's a water droplet in the beginning of Imax: Grand Canyon that comes right out of the screen and hovers for a bit.

The potato cod scene is what I think of when I think pop out. I have the 92" Mits rear projection set. It comes out into my living room and I perceive I could reach out and touch it even though I'm over 10' away from the HDTV. I agree about the water droplet in the Canyon disc also.
I have dozens of 3D titles and none have that same "several perceived feet" out from my screen. Objects free floating and not touched by the screen frame appear to pop out more/ better. Most titles have great depth: just mostly into the screen.
Just got Journey to the Center of the Earth 3D (have the earlier 3D red/ blue Blu-ray) and I think it has some good gimmicky fun pop out that looks pretty good.
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