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post #421 of 563 Old 07-21-2014, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Please understand, I don't desire to follow michael scott and figure out what he knows on the topic...
Uh, okay. I don't think anyone asked or tried to force you to follow michael scott so I don't quite understand why you are telling me this but whatever works for you, Don.

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Fortunately, for now, my PS3 (an older device) seems to be the most updated device I own, at least an update that interrupts my launch of Netflix almost daily.
The theory floating around is the Netflix uses PS3 as a test bed for its app and new functionalities so the assumption is that PS3 should continue to get new functionalities. I guess because PS3 is more like a computer than any other BD player out there?
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post #422 of 563 Old 07-21-2014, 09:33 AM
 
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Problem is, Hollywood is not releasing tons of it this year or next year or the year after that. I was pleased to read Star Wars 7 will be 3D. http://www.boxoffice.com/statistics/3d-release-calendar
I think Hollywood is releasing tons of 3D. Just not in the U.S.

I hear 3D is huge in China so Hollywood would release 3D version of a movie in China but not in the U.S., i.e., Noah.

For some odd reason, Hollywood seems to be playing down 3D in the U.S.
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post #423 of 563 Old 07-21-2014, 03:22 PM
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I'm as much a fan of 3D as the next guy. Problem is, Hollywood is not releasing tons of it this year or next year or the year after that. I was pleased to read Star Wars 7 will be 3D. http://www.boxoffice.com/statistics/3d-release-calendar
Not a complete list. For example, it was reported that "Batman v Superman" will be in 3D...but it's not included on the list.

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post #424 of 563 Old 07-21-2014, 03:43 PM
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Not a complete list. For example, it was reported that "Batman v Superman" will be in 3D...but it's not included on the list.
Yes it is a complete list that is updated monthly. It is what the theaters use to determine how to use there 3D screens. The studios add and drop 3D movies all the time.

The batman v Superman movie is like 2016 or something. Long way off.
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post #425 of 563 Old 07-22-2014, 12:29 AM
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My XB1 did a serious update today for Netflix, but no 3D. I guess if you own a Xbox 1 your left out.
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post #426 of 563 Old 07-28-2014, 08:48 PM
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Watched Beowulf 3D on Netflix tonight. Hadn't watched this since they fixed the buffering issues. Nice to see this all the way through flawlessly.

Also watched the short- Elephant's Dream ( the Netflix 3D demo ) Quickly noticed they rendered this bass ackwards. It has some fantastic 3D images in the animated work. Had to turn my glasses upside down to flip my left and right to view.

I still see the "3d section" on the home page is lacking many of the titles that are in 3D and on the server.


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post #427 of 563 Old 07-30-2014, 09:48 PM
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I heard on CNBC news today that Netflix and AT&T had just worked out an agreement to improve the streaming bandwidth, similar to what they worked out with Comcast last Spring. Those of you using AT&T and have had buffering issues may soon get some improvement. It took a couple weeks after the Comcast agreement was signed before I saw a major improvement.


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post #428 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 01:19 AM
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FCC should smack those ISPs silly for the blatant disregard of net neutrality. It's like not being able to drive on highways unless you have a Ford...
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post #429 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 07:33 AM
 
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FCC should smack those ISPs silly for the blatant disregard of net neutrality. It's like not being able to drive on highways unless you have a Ford...
There never was net neutrality. The content providers pay ISPs to access the subscribers and the subscribers pay ISP to access the content providers. It has always been this way since the beginning of Internet.

Too many uninformed people get agitated by ignorant nonsense peddled by the mass media and lash out obtusely on a topic which they are misinformed.
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post #430 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 07:38 AM
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This doesn't relate to 3D, but perhaps to the quality tiering that Netflix may be targeting. I've been using Amazon Prime video for awhile, and the quality is much better than what I see on netflix. I go out of my way to check there first for anything.

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post #431 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 08:14 AM
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There never was net neutrality. The content providers pay ISPs to access the subscribers and the subscribers pay ISP to access the content providers. It has always been this way since the beginning of Internet.

Too many uninformed people get agitated by ignorant nonsense peddled by the mass media and lash out obtusely on a topic which they are misinformed.
You seem to also be a tad uninformed here too. Net neutrality is basically the principle that ISPs and governments should treat all data on the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached equipment, and modes of communication. Up until recently, ISPs have adhered to this principle, but recently they have started running traffic shaping and throttling on Netflix traffic. Anyway, this is off-topic.
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post #432 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by pettern View Post
You seem to also be a tad uninformed here too. Net neutrality is basically the principle that ISPs and governments should treat all data on the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached equipment, and modes of communication. Up until recently, ISPs have adhered to this principle, but recently they have started running traffic shaping and throttling on Netflix traffic.
......I know what you're saying, but that's not completely true. Yes, the netflix thing got the public's attention the most, but they haven't been previously adhering to net neutrality concepts for a long time. Verizon and Comcast block ports to keep you from doing your own email and site hosting (80 & 25). And when Comcast got crap from the FCC about throttling down BıtTorrent users, the DC US Court of Appeals struck it down allowing them to continue throttling it down. I'm not at all clear where they are currently, though you're right in that Comcast insists that their "congestion management" method is "protocol agnostic".

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post #433 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 11:49 AM
 
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You seem to also be a tad uninformed here too. Net neutrality is basically the principle that ISPs and governments should treat all data on the Internet equally, not discriminating or charging differentially by user, content, site, platform, application, type of attached equipment, and modes of communication. Up until recently, ISPs have adhered to this principle, but recently they have started running traffic shaping and throttling on Netflix traffic. Anyway, this is off-topic.
You do know that the concept of net neutrality came long after the Internet actually started, right? Do you believe that various CDNs actually pay same rate to ISPs? Different ISPs would charge different transit rate to different CDNs depending on requirements. You do know that Netflix directs their contents from different CDNs via different networks depending on time, program, device, etc. Is Netflix also guilty of traffic shaping? I do agree on one thing: this is off-topic.
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post #434 of 563 Old 07-31-2014, 04:12 PM
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It took a couple weeks after the Comcast agreement was signed before I saw a major improvement.
I saw an improvement in 48 hrs Don, and I'm not joking. Incredible what $ will do.. Does anyone know if Verizon Fios has a agreement with Netflix to stream directly now? I'm thinking of switching from Comcast to Fios.

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Incredible what $ will do..
There is a general misconception that ISPs are getting extra $ from Netflix for direct connection to them. This is simply false. If anything, ISPs are probably making less money by agreeing with Netflix for direct connection.

"Open Connect" is simply a name for Netflix's single-purpose CDN. Before Open Connect, Netflix was paying third party CDNs, such as Limelight, to convey its content to ISPs. Open Connect or direct connection means Netflix is paying directly to ISPs what it was paying third party CDNs before... Netflix is simply cutting out the middle man.

In fact, I bet you dollars to donuts that Netflix is paying less overall for conveyance of its content. Otherwise, why would Netflix tout Open Connect if it wasn't saving money? I assure you that delivering quality streaming to customers is not the primary reason. It's always about making or saving money in the end.
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post #436 of 563 Old 08-01-2014, 12:06 PM
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There is a general misconception that ISPs are getting extra $ from Netflix for direct connection to them. This is simply false. If anything, ISPs are probably making less money by agreeing with Netflix for direct connection.
All reports (except yours) indicate that Comcast, Verizon and now AT&T are being paid additional money from Netflix for a direct connect to their servers in exchange for not throttling back the delivery speed. I had asked you to provide evidence of your claim before but you never did. As a matter of fact, the details of these arrangements have been held confidential and I can find no disclosure. Even in the stockholder's quarterly reports the details are not disclosed. Only the macro financials.

Some interesting reads on the subject:
http://www.theverge.com/2014/7/29/59...eaming-quality

http://www.extremetech.com/computing...more-bandwidth

http://variety.com/2014/digital/news...ng-1201271581/

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...streaming-fees









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In fact, I bet you dollars to donuts that Netflix is paying less overall for conveyance of its content. Otherwise, why would Netflix tout Open Connect if it wasn't saving money? I assure you that delivering quality streaming to customers is not the primary reason. It's always about making or saving money in the end.
I would like to believe this is true and hope it is. I find no fault when a company can improve it's product delivery while saving money at the same time. This increases their bottom line and ultimately it benefits both customers as well as stock holders. Smart Chief Executive Officer's know it is always about both delivering a quality product as well as improving the bottom line. The Chief Financial Officer's main concern is saving costs as well as increasing margins. Product quality is left to others in the company.

(PS- Disclosure: as of today I began to buy back small increments in Netflix.)


As far as Open Connect is concerned, I have always had the impression that this was a temporary measure for Netflix to get around the disagreements it had with the ISP's so it could move forward with it's plans to offer higher bandwidth video such as 4K and 3D. I never considered it a permanent approach. I never got the idea that Netflix wanted to compete with the ISP's It appears for now that these deals they are negotiating is a win win win for Netflix, the customer, and the ISP. And is it does save on that bottom line, for the stock holder too.


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post #437 of 563 Old 08-01-2014, 12:11 PM
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I would like to believe this is true and hope it is...


As far as Open Connect is concerned, I have always had the impression that this was a temporary measure for Netflix to get around the disagreements it had with the ISP's so it could move forward with it's plans to offer higher bandwidth video such as 4K and 3D. I never considered it a permanent approach. I never got the idea that Netflix wanted to compete with the ISP's It appears for now that these deals they are negotiating is a win win win for Netflix, the customer, and the ISP. And is it does save on that bottom line, for the stock holder too.
Netflix service via Verizon has only gotten worse. Months ago, I could stream 1080p at just about anytime. Now...only at 2:30 - 3:00...AM! All other times, it's 480...or less!

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post #438 of 563 Old 08-01-2014, 12:13 PM
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Netflix service via Verizon has only gotten worse. Months ago, I could stream 1080p at just about anytime. Now...only at 2:30 - 3:00...AM! All other times, it's 480...or less!
My 10 y.o. said the other day, "don't forget dad, use Amazon first, Netflix looks terrible."

If you guys haven't tried amazon prime video, you should. Amazon prime pays for itself at our house just for shopping anyway, so streaming is a plus.

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post #439 of 563 Old 08-01-2014, 01:28 PM
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I have Amazon Prime here too and find it equal to Netflix on lower quality programming but not on the higher quality where Netflix excels. But I have Comcast fixed bandwidth account too. That might make a difference. Mostly, I am not that excited with Amazon video because the selection is rather boring on the Prime and cost per show on the others. I also have Hulu+ and hardly ever use it. Been thinking about dropping that one.

But since this is a 3D discussion section, Amazon 3d offerings are next to zilch and what they do offer is in the extremely poor category as I posted in another thread. I'll keep checking, however and I have no intention on dropping my Amazon Prime as it pays for itself with shipping charges savings. We buy just about everything on Amazon Prime. Any free video is just extra bonus.


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post #440 of 563 Old 08-04-2014, 04:12 PM
 
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All reports (except yours) indicate that Comcast, Verizon and now AT&T are being paid additional money from Netflix for a direct connect to their servers in exchange for not throttling back the delivery speed. ...

As far as Open Connect is concerned, I have always had the impression that this was a temporary measure for Netflix to get around the disagreements it had with the ISP's so it could move forward with it's plans to offer higher bandwidth video such as 4K and 3D. I never considered it a permanent approach. I never got the idea that Netflix wanted to compete with the ISP's ....
I believe there is a fundamental lack of understanding of Internet here. Let's start with some basic definitions to get the baseline understanding.

Content providers - these are Netflix, CNN, etc. of the world. The content providers store their programs in Content Distribution Networks (CDNs).

CDN - think of these as warehouses that store "boxes" of programs from various content providers. These are Akamai, Limelight, etc. Amazon also runs CDN. ISPs would transport the contents from CDN to its subscribers.

ISP - think of these as "transportation" companies. Many ISPs would be connected to CDNs.

I am not going to get into backbone, peering, etc.

What was happening before was that Netflix would pay CDN to store and convey its contents. CDN would, in turn, pay ISPs for transit. The problem was as Netflix grew in popularity, it outgrew the bandwidth that was allocated or that it contracted for, causing slowdowns. Think of rush hour where many cars jammed into 2-lane highway. Now Netflix could have paid CDN which, in turn, would have contracted with ISPs for larger bandwidth, i.e. 4-lane highway.

Instead, Netflix chose to build up and run their own CDN, Open Connect, and directly negotiate bandwidth with ISPs - thereby cutting out the middle man, commercial third-party CDNs. This is where the general misconception of Netflix paying ISPs arises. Yes, Netflix is paying ISPs but Netflix always have done so albeit indirectly via CDNs. This is not new nor outrageous. All content providers pay ISPs either directly or indirectly for transit.

Now for Open Connect to work out financially, the cost of building and running Open Connect plus transit cost have to be less than what Netflix has been paying the third-party CDNs. There is no reason and doesn't make any sense for Netflix to engage in PR battles with ISPs to take on Open Connect if it's going to cost more. Costing less for Netflix means making less for ISPs (most likely). We won't know for sure until we compare the financials and somehow derive the bandwidth cost per subscriber.

If you won't take my word for it, check out http://blog.streamingmedia.com/. Dan Rayburn is an industry insider that you're so fond of.
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post #441 of 563 Old 08-04-2014, 04:24 PM
 
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For those who believe that ISPs are throttling Netflix, here is a good article on the topic.

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2014/...eutrality.html
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post #442 of 563 Old 08-04-2014, 06:49 PM
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I don't understand your point with your elementary constant repeat of blog basics. Please, I don't need you to explain to me what you have figured out from your internet blog reading. LOL! For some reason you must believe I'm some newbie at this. FYI, I was one of the earlier pioneers in streaming video content back in the late 90's, as a business. Back when you had to look up my business URL in a white pages book much like a phone directory. I followed the IP video development and the rise of Level 3 locally as well as became an investor in Akamai at $11 a share in 2004 or 5, can't recall. I met the CEO of Akamai at his booth at a trade show and he was kind enough to educate me how all this works. It was a time when my IP ad business was really taking off so he had some interest in my company's content business model. I'm also an FCC licensed Broadcast Engineer, and past SBE member and past member of the AES, NY chapter. I wasn't in the TV business all my life but started in '92.

I may not be aware of the switching locations and the hardware in play or who runs the stuff these days but I don't care about that. When I have a problem, at Comcast, I know who to call and get answers. I pay Comcast, an ISP, and I don't view them as some transportation or trucking company. Yikes! Did you get that from some blogger? To me they are my gateway to the internet. Years ago, I had a T-1 from AT&T because I had my own servers. As prices came down, I moved to a Hosting service, like what AVSForums runs on. I still have a few servers in operation as they are so low in monthly cost, I just keep them for personal use. Been retired now since 2009 but some stuff is hard to let go.

So, will you be at CES in January? It would be nice for us to meet. How about NAB in April? I usually attend both, but last year I was out of the country shooting video in Central America and for the first time since '88 I missed NAB.


I saw what you posted earlier about the money flow and your logic of who pays who and, without getting into accounting, it seemed to me you had a round about way of deciding Netflix wasn't paying the the ISP because they had stopped paying the CDN. Did I understand you correctly? Look, I don't see that because I just don't find any reference to that other than blog opinions. But for political reasons I can appreciate why you came up with your reasoning. I think it is more accurate to just say it is possible that Netflix is indeed saving money in what they are doing, but the deals in play are not disclosed. Even when I spoke with Akamai years ago he said the actual cost numbers are confidential. If you knew business and how competitive it is, you would appreciate that. Therefore it is not honest to claim who is making profits and who is not on a micro economic level unless you are in a position to have that information. All we can know is the Macro picture and that is published information. You are welcome to believe what you want. For me, it isn't important, AT ALL! I don't care what work flow they use. My concern as far as Netflix goes, is that they can get the content to me in good quality, and they turn a profit doing it.


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post #443 of 563 Old 08-04-2014, 07:28 PM
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For those who believe that ISPs are throttling Netflix, here is a good article on the topic.

http://blog.streamingmedia.com/2014/...eutrality.html
Rayburn does indeed have an excellent handle on the Netflix/ISP issue. I found a couple paragraphs in the above article and an earlier one that match excatly what I got from a Comcast engineer awhile back on the Open Connect invite from Netflix. In addition to what Rayburn said this Comcast engineer explained that Corporate would not approve of Open Connect because they were planning to get a better arrangement with Netflix using their own cache servers. In effect that is what this year's outcome was. Rayburn did state that the ISP had to decide to throttle Netflix delivery during busy times, but he also said that the buffering and poor quality wasn't always the fault of the ISP. Same from my source. They admitted to me that in some heavy times, they had to throttle the entire system to all users for "video" content which would also affect You Tube streaming in HD and other 5Mbs content. Even me, with a guaranteed 20Mbs fixed. Normally, I would only see throttling on the Netflix 3D which required 12 Mbs.

From reading your sources, I would say you need to be careful you read the entire piece from these really good sources and not cherry pick phrases that support your preconceived theories on what is going on. Rayburn is good, but read everything he says, not just parts. I especially like how he says you can't tell what is the source of the problem since Netflix delivery is so complex. So, when we have a problem, start somewhere and make the complaint known. Be ready for the finger pointing. In most cases when you have a delivery issue, complain to the ISP, and Netflix. When both are notified, they will find a solution and it will get fixed. But don't leave out your own system either. As far as the CDN's are concerned, even if you have a contact there, like I used to, how would you know if on your program they were even in the loop?


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Uh huh, so being an early adopter and investor mean one understands how Internet works? It didn't seem that way from your posts. You believe in ISPs throttling Netflix. Do you believe in SLAs?

Also take what Rayburn says with a grain of salt. Some of things he say are way off but he generally gets how the Internet works. He understands the decisions Internet and streamer services make comes down to same reason why any other business make decisions: money. But you knew that, right?

Lastly, as for the CDNs, there is a tool that can track where your Netflix program comes from. IIRC, it's called Merlin or something. It'll tell you the paths and which CDNs. Check Netflix streaming thread for more information.

P.s. ISPs are indeed like transportation companies. They transport data. Even the fee they charge is referred as transit fee.

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Uh huh, so being an early adopter and investor mean one understands how Internet works? It didn't seem that way from your posts. You believe in ISPs throttling Netflix. Do you believe in SLAs?

Also take what Rayburn says with a grain of salt. Some of things he say are way off but he generally gets how the Internet works. He understands the decisions Internet and streamer services make comes down to same reason why any other business make decisions: money. But you knew that, right?

Lastly, as for the CDNs, there is a tool that can track where your Netflix program comes from. IIRC, it's called Merlin or something. It'll tell you the paths and which CDNs. Check Netflix streaming thread for more information.

P.s. ISPs are indeed like transportation companies. They transport data. Even the fee they charge is referred as transit fee.

You believe in ISPs throttling Netflix. Do you believe in SLAs?
I believe Comcast throttled Netflix because an engineer I spoke with working at Comcast told me they do when traffic got heavy. SLA? I have one with Comcast. It's not a religion or faith to believe in, it is a contract.

...But you knew that, right?
Yes, it appears he does know the score based on a few of his blogs I read. He appears to present the complete story, not just one side of it. I could find nothing wrong with what he said but I can understand you might disagree with a few things since it doesn't support your one sided view. I did question why you would post links to bloggs by Rayburn if you don't respect him as your authority. I guess you didn't read all his article.

...there is a tool that can track where your Netflix program comes from Thanks. I didn't know that. I might look into it if I have nothing else better to do. I know how to use Traceroute and ping testing. But those tools require a bit of deciphering work to read any meaning.

It's fine with me if you want to think Comcast is a transportation business. I don't. But that would be like me thinking of my power company as an oil refinery just because they refine oil into electricity.

It didn't seem that way from your posts.
I got that impression from your condescending post which is why I decided to list for you, some of my background and credentials. One doesn't achieve these by reading tech briefs on the internet. I never claimed to be an expert in this stuff. I did claim to have some good resources with those who actually work the industry and hands on at their companies. I've just been in the business, in a small way, of video streaming since the beginning. That's a fact. And today, since I do understand these providers, ( as opposed to a retail clothing manufacturer) I find it comfortable to own and trade their stock. Many stock traders have no idea what these companies do. I'm not one of them. I learn the business financials from their publications, before investing my small savings in them. I like knowing what I own. So, I not only understand them, I have "skin in the game."


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post #446 of 563 Old 08-05-2014, 07:33 AM
 
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I get the impression that what you know about Internet is second-hand and you may not fully understand what was conveyed to you. I do applaud you for trying. That's more than I can say for vast majority of people including myself.
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post #447 of 563 Old 08-05-2014, 07:44 AM
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Veiled insult + false high road + left handed compliment?

Grow milkweed. The Monarch Butterfly requires it, and its numbers are dwindling fast.
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post #448 of 563 Old 08-05-2014, 08:22 AM
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Yeah, I got out of the TV cable ad business when I hit my second peak, with a dip caused by 9-11 in the center. My retirement was health related. The streaming IP end of this business was triggered by, a business partner who came up with the idea of putting porn on the internet about 1995. I was the tech guy, he had this modeling and talent agency so we partnered. I believe he still owns the domain name- floridagirls.com. To stay legal we didn't do any sex or full nudity videos, rather just stuff no more risque than Victoria's Secret style modeling. There was a swim suit advertiser who paid for most of our first web site. Later when we were doing cable infomercials, I got the idea to put these ad programs, half hour TV shows on the internet for our cable clients. This was a fabulous profit maker but it had some rough beginnings. The most difficult at that time was the codecs. I spent a lot of time with developers refining the codecs for streaming video. Then along came Windows Media Video and that was the solution to all my problems. I switched to that and the business took off. We even had a solution for Mac users. It was going great until Google bought You Tube and commercialized / monetized You Tube. In a year my IP Video business went to just a couple clients left and then I retired. It was an era type business. We did quite well in those days for a small company.


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post #449 of 563 Old 08-05-2014, 09:13 AM
 
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Veiled insult + false high road + left handed compliment?
"You don't know that."
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post #450 of 563 Old 08-05-2014, 09:28 AM
 
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Yeah, I got out of the TV cable ad business when I hit my second peak, with a dip caused by 9-11 in the center. My retirement was health related. The streaming IP end of this business was triggered by, a business partner who came up with the idea of putting porn on the internet about 1995. I was the tech guy, he had this modeling and talent agency so we partnered. I believe he still owns the domain name- floridagirls.com. To stay legal we didn't do any sex or full nudity videos, rather just stuff no more risque than Victoria's Secret style modeling. There was a swim suit advertiser who paid for most of our first web site. Later when we were doing cable infomercials, I got the idea to put these ad programs, half hour TV shows on the internet for our cable clients. This was a fabulous profit maker but it had some rough beginnings. The most difficult at that time was the codecs. I spent a lot of time with developers refining the codecs for streaming video. Then along came Windows Media Video and that was the solution to all my problems. I switched to that and the business took off. We even had a solution for Mac users. It was going great until Google bought You Tube and commercialized / monetized You Tube. In a year my IP Video business went to just a couple clients left and then I retired. It was an era type business. We did quite well in those days for a small company.
A couple of buddies and I started an Internet commerce website for imported music CDs back in the early 90's. We were young and had no clue. Internet was still unknown and Yahoo was still a directory website. I remember exchanging emails with Jerry Yang. A guy from NYC proposed that we sell porn videos on our site. Even back then porn was one thing that made money on Internet. We declined and continue to make little money until it wasn't worth the effort. Ah, the road not taken...
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