Is 3D about dead? - Page 35 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 04-21-2015, 07:30 PM
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Ghosting outside the extremely narrow on-axis vertical field of view is passive 3D's biggest weakness, IMO. It doesn't help that larger screens and/or closer seating distance (which is what you want for better immersion) makes the problem worse, since the viewing angle to the corners of the display are even more pronounced.

Last edited by tezster; 04-21-2015 at 07:32 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-21-2015, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
4K passive has a much tighter vertical viewing angle.
Tgm, do you have a link to an info source for that? I'm not saying you're wrong but I have never seen that claim made before.


Anecdotally, a cheap 42" Full HD passive 3D set I have (Soniq brand) has a very critical vertical viewing angle. Without taking measurements I'd estimate its vertical viewing angle range for minimal ghosting is quite similar to the limited vertical angle range that works for my 65" Sony 4k set (a 2013 model).


Another factor that comes into play is that the bigger the screen and the closer the viewing distance the more of an issue getting the vertical position right becomes, as the top of the screen makes a different angle to the bottom of the screen. The usable viewing angle range diminishes. In fact you can only get so close to a film-type patterned retarder screen before it is impossible to avoid seeing ghosting. At such a distance the horizontal dark lines of a Full HD passive set, viewed with 3D glasses, have already become quite visible.
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Old 04-22-2015, 07:23 AM
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Tgm, do you have a link to an info source for that? I'm not saying you're wrong but I have never seen that claim made before.

Anecdotally, a cheap 42" Full HD passive 3D set I have (Soniq brand) has a very critical vertical viewing angle. Without taking measurements I'd estimate its vertical viewing angle range for minimal ghosting is quite similar to the limited vertical angle range that works for my 65" Sony 4k set (a 2013 model).
I tested personally the 2013 65X900A, and it's vertical viewing angle was precisely half that of the 65" 2K LG's and roughly half of my own 60" 2K sony passive. It's a pretty common observation, you should try looking again....I don't think you were testing it properly. And this is pretty old news.

In the 900A thread, there was some complaints as to why Sony made their 55" a 540 passive instead of a 1080. It outraged a lot of folks when it hit the press. A sony engineer discussing this 3rd hand pointed out that the vertical viewing angle was too tight once the screen got that small. The problem has to do with the fact that only 2 of the screen axes are reduced and the FPR height off of it is not.

Remember, if you lay the screen flat, the FPR hovers above the grid at the same height regardless of how far apart the pixels (and scanlines) are. They don't make the screen itself thinner, they make the pixels tighter. If you chart this out, it means that you have a tighter viewing angle for screens of the same technology base and size, and if you sit on a couch, you'll notice that you'll start to have crosstalk (L/R leak) effects as you move your head up and down much more readily than if you do this with a 2K device.

Test it again, but this time against two screens of the same size.
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Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.

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Old 04-23-2015, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Remember, if you lay the screen flat, the FPR hovers above the grid at the same height regardless of how far apart the pixels (and scanlines) are. They don't make the screen itself thinner, they make the pixels tighter. If you chart this out, it means that you have a tighter viewing angle for screens of the same technology base and size, and if you sit on a couch, you'll notice that you'll start to have crosstalk (L/R leak) effects as you move your head up and down much more readily than if you do this with a 2K device.
I wasn't aware the FPR was kept at the same distance from the pixel grid of a 4k screen as for a 2k screen. If the FPR rows are twice as fine in order to filter pixel rows half as high [and assuming a 4k FPR is of similar depth to a 2k FPR) it makes sense to me that the viewing angle for low ghosting would be significantly reduced.

I have now found a few relevant anecdotal comments in the 900A thread (which thread currently contains 12,996 posts!), but nothing anywhere else. It surprises me that something as fundamental as this hasn't been more widely reported, especially in articles that point out advantages of UHD passive 3D screens over Full HD passive screens. IMHO it is a serious omission.

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Test it again, but this time against two screens of the same size.
Well the next time I'm in a showrooom with 2k and 4k passive 3d sets on display I will indeed do a comparison! A ratio of 2:1 in viewing angle shouldn't be too hard for me to spot. Cheers
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Old 05-01-2015, 02:51 PM
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Well here in the UK Sky have now decided to ditch their dedicated 3d channel which you could argue is yet another nail in the coffin at least in terms of 3d at home, hopefully the existence of 3d bluray ensures that it doesn't become completely redundent though even if it's just for a while.

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Old 05-01-2015, 03:11 PM
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Well here in the UK Sky are shutting down their dedicated 3d channel which isn't exactly an indication that it's here stay at least at home, hopefully the existence of 3d bluray ensures that it doesn't become completely redundent though even if it's just for a while.
Don't fall for that common mistake in logic. The non-viability of dedicated 3D channels says nothing at all about the viability of 3D as a whole. It was a broken concept to start with.
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Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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Old 05-01-2015, 05:53 PM
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Sure is a lot of movies coming out this spring and summer that are 3d.
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Old 05-01-2015, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mars5l View Post
Sure is a lot of movies coming out this spring and summer that are 3d.
Almost half of what was released last year during the May to August time frame.

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Old 05-02-2015, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Don't fall for that common mistake in logic. The non-viability of dedicated 3D channels says nothing at all about the viability of 3D as a whole. It was a broken concept to start with.
+1

I have no interest watching poorly conceived 3D channels, but my 3D bluray movie collection continues to grow, as does my time streaming 3D movies on 3DGO.
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Old 05-02-2015, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by johnny905 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
Don't fall for that common mistake in logic. The non-viability of dedicated 3D channels says nothing at all about the viability of 3D as a whole. It was a broken concept to start with.
+1

I have no interest watching poorly conceived 3D channels, but my 3D bluray movie collection continues to grow, as does my time streaming 3D movies on 3DGO.
+2. 201 3-D BD and counting. Long live the extra dimension.
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Old 05-02-2015, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Sky and 3Net weren't poorly conceived. They had good content, they just didn't have enough new content to keep things fresh. I would say that broadcast 3D failed because most just don't want to wear glasses also cost is considerably more. When it comes right down to it, people just want to turn something on and watch.
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Old 05-02-2015, 01:22 PM
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Sky and 3Net weren't poorly conceived. They had good content, they just didn't have enough new content to keep things fresh. I would say that broadcast 3D failed because most just don't want to wear glasses also cost is considerably more. When it comes right down to it, people just want to turn something on and watch.
............Good Content
but.........not enough new to keep things fresh
and.........(your listed reasons regarding daily watching)
*MEANS*
"poorly conceived".

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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Old 05-02-2015, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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No, if there had been more viewers, it would bring demand for new content. The fact that 3D is not as easy to watch, straining to some viewers, ideal seating position, and whatever other drawbacks had more to do with it than broadcast vs 3D Blu ray. The only local place I know of to buy 3D Blu ray's now is Best Buy, other than a few new releases at Target and Wal Mart. Does that mean 3D Blu ray was "poorly conceived"? No, it just means there has been a decline in demand so they've removed the content.

The only reason it could be poorly conceived would mean they way over estimated the popularity of 3D after the success of Avatar. Meaning the general public didn't care about 3D as much as they'd originally thought, there's just not enough demand for it. If they had known there'd be as much decline by now they'd likely have never released any broadcast 3D or 3D Blu ray spec or consumer 3D cameras. Broadcast 3D failed for many reasons, mostly decline in viewership, 3D Blu ray might be next.

If you're saying broadcast 3D was poorly conceived you're saying 3D is poorly conceived, I can't argue that. It's a personal choice.

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Old 05-02-2015, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
No, if there had been more viewers, it would bring demand for new content. The fact that 3D is not as easy to watch, straining to some viewers, ideal seating position, and whatever other drawbacks had more to do with it than broadcast vs 3D Blu ray. The only local place I know of to buy 3D Blu ray's now is Best Buy, other than a few new releases at Target and Wal Mart. Does that mean 3D Blu ray was "poorly conceived"? No, it just means there has been a decline in demand so they've removed the content.
The issue was with dedicated 3D channels.


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The only reason it could be poorly conceived would mean they way over estimated the popularity of 3D after the success of Avatar. Meaning the general public didn't care about 3D as much as they'd originally thought, there's just not enough demand for it. If they had known there'd be as much decline by now they'd likely have never released any broadcast 3D or 3D Blu ray spec or consumer 3D cameras. Broadcast 3D failed for many reasons, mostly decline in viewership, 3D Blu ray might be next.

If you're saying broadcast 3D was poorly conceived you're saying 3D is poorly conceived, I can't argue that. It's a personal choice.
Nonsense; you're connecting the two concepts laterally when in reality one is a superset of the other. Besides, be clear on what you mean by "broadcast". Does that include on-demand? Better not, because it's the notion of dedicated 3D channels that is poorly conceived not on-demand. And 3D as a whole is not poorly conceived of at all.

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:09 PM
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Sure is a lot of movies coming out this spring and summer that are 3d.
Sure hope some (most?) of them make it to Bluray.


Ed
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Old 05-02-2015, 07:40 PM
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Sure hope some (most?) of them make it to Bluray.


Ed
I'm pretty sure that all the major ones are available region free overseas sooner or later.

I've had good luck getting titles unavailable in the US from amazon.de & amazon.co.uk

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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Old Yesterday, 01:33 AM
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Almost half of what was released last year during the May to August time frame.
2014 : 15
Spiderman 2 - Godzilla - X-Men - Maleficent
Edge of Tomorrow - How to train your Dragon 2 - Transformers
Planet of the Apes - Planes Fire & Rescue - Hercules
Guardians of the Galaxy - Ninja Turtles - Step Up 5 - Sin City
Boxtrolls

2015 : 15
Avengers 2 - Mad Max - Poltergeist - San Andreas
Jurassic World - Inside Out
Terminator Genisys - Minions - Ant Man - Pixels
El Americano - Fantastic 4
Maze Runner - Everest - Hotel Transylvania 2

Summer release comparison
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Old Yesterday, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by old corps View Post
Sure hope some (most?) of them make it to Bluray.


Ed
Every 3d movie ive seen in theaters came out on bluray except Jackass 3d, well it came out in the 3d, just not the current tech 3d. Which I still will never understand, it was done in 3d it was huge in 3d in theaters, there is still a big market for 3d movies, why not give us the correct version.

I am super hyped to Mad Max Fury Road in 3d, I bet thats going to be one of the better ones this years for just pure depth and eye candy. Plus the biggest movie of the year will be in 3d as well, Star Wars.
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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The issue was with dedicated 3D channels.




Nonsense; you're connecting the two concepts laterally when in reality one is a superset of the other. Besides, be clear on what you mean by "broadcast". Does that include on-demand? Better not, because it's the notion of dedicated 3D channels that is poorly conceived not on-demand. And 3D as a whole is not poorly conceived of at all.
Not talking about on demand, just the dedicated 3D channels. As I said, not poorly conceived. More like poorly received. Not enough interest in 3D. Not sure how else I can put it.

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Old Yesterday, 04:50 PM
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I am super hyped to Mad Max: Fury Road - 3D in 3d, I bet that's going to be one of the better ones this years for just pure depth and eye candy. Plus the biggest movie of the year will be in 3d as well, Star Wars: Episode VII - 3D.
Those two flicks alone tells us that 3D is still alive and kicking a$$ big time.

♥ 3D will never die, just like Rock'nRoll. ...And Disney will be back, here on the North American continent; PIXAR, Marvel, Star Wars & all.
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM
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Not talking about on demand, just the dedicated 3D channels. As I said, not poorly conceived. More like poorly received. Not enough interest in 3D. Not sure how else I can put it.
Put it however you like, you're still connecting two notion in a way that isn't correct. 3D could have been a drop-dead favorite among every movie watching fan in the universe and still be a bad fit for dedicated channels.

Using Artificial Life algorithms, I created a bunch of creatures and let them evolve on my system. Over the years they gained intelligence, a society, and quite a few interesting abilities. However, using the rules from their world, they concluded that I did not exist. So I created a special creature meant to spread the Word about Me with amazing magical abilities that only He had. Went well, until they decided to nail the poor Guy to a tree.
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Old Yesterday, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by EVERRET View Post
2014 : 15
Spiderman 2 - Godzilla - X-Men - Maleficent
Edge of Tomorrow - How to train your Dragon 2 - Transformers
Planet of the Apes - Planes Fire & Rescue - Hercules
Guardians of the Galaxy - Ninja Turtles - Step Up 5 - Sin City
Boxtrolls

2015 : 15
Avengers 2 - Mad Max - Poltergeist - San Andreas
Jurassic World - Inside Out
Terminator Genisys - Minions - Ant Man - Pixels
El Americano - Fantastic 4
Maze Runner - Everest - Hotel Transylvania 2

Summer release comparison
The list I looked at was May to August TIme frame. Not through September. SInce the movie SUmmer season really doesn't go through the end of September. It listed something like 22 3D movies in 2014 and 12 3D movies in 2015.

And I included movies from other countries. Like the movie Lucy from last SUmmer was in 3D in China but was from France I think.(Must be France with Luc Besson writing and Directing Lucy)

There were several releases in 3D last year that were only available in China. For some reason the US doesn't warrant the release of 3D for movies like Lucy.

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Old Yesterday, 11:02 PM
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Those two flicks alone tells us that 3D is still alive and kicking a$$ big time.

♥ 3D will never die, just like Rock'nRoll. ...And Disney will be back, here on the North American continent; PIXAR, Marvel, Star Wars & all.
Still not real 3D though. Very few movies are filmed in 3D. Most are post converted from 2D to 3D. Including Mad Max and Star Wars.

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Old Yesterday, 11:35 PM
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Still not real 3D though. Very few movies are filmed in 3D. Most are post converted from 2D to 3D. Including Mad Max and Star Wars.
That's too bad then. ...Star wars is Disney.
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Don't write off 3D conversions, as some are really outstanding in my opinion. Jurassic Park and Titanic are two examples.
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Old Today, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Put it however you like, you're still connecting two notion in a way that isn't correct. 3D could have been a drop-dead favorite among every movie watching fan in the universe and still be a bad fit for dedicated channels.
That's fine, but the disagreement was that broadcast was "poorly conceived". You've not stated any factual basis to that. Do you have any? I've stated my reasons why it wasn't poorly conceived already which are the main reasons why broadcast failed to take off. They could not have better prepared it at the time in any meaningful way that broadcast 3D would still be around. Main reason: lack of interest. If you've got some facts to throw around fine. But saying it's poorly conceived doesn't back your claim.

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