What is this 3D issue i see a lot...that NOBODY even mentions ?! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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ok people i HAVE some serious concerns about my 3D situation and i NEED "HELP" !!!!

I have never liked 3D...on active TV's....but i got my passive 3D panasonic and well it it much easier on the eyes;

The best movie on 3d bluray are without a doubt (in disorder)

- Hugo : STUNNING 3d - movie sucks!
- Gravity: 3D was so good....it looks like i am watching 2D ! - natural 100%
- Titanic & Pacific rim: incredible conversions; sense of space is staggering !
- CROODS: depth of field in unbelievable !

anyway...all GOOD...BUT when i watched some documentaries.....my eyes began to HURT on most scenes and i CAN'T understand why : and this is with suposedly reference blurays:

imax Hubble & Imax born to be wild & IMAX deep sea all suffer from one BIG FLAW that no reviews EVEN mentions !!!!!!

I know it is NOT ONLY ME, as my wife, cousin and brother also experience this on these very same discs and others as well

- image on many scenes is very stable and good...BUT on various scenes NEGATIVE parallax is very weird (like mixed up/blurry in 3d) and object on the front of the screen (middle or even worst on the sides....) make my eyes hurt BAD ! ALMOST like why you activate the "reverse L/R 3D" menu on the TV

This is not GHOSTING of course...so what the hell is this ? why does no one talk about this phenomena ? why does no pro review mention this ???? The IMAX 3D is the top of the crop for 3D....but maybe 25-30% of the film has this problem with negative parallax ? WTF ????

I really need to know if ANY of you guys know what i am saying or not...and an expert explain to me what this is due to ???? TV ? disc ? or something else ????

Would love to hear from you all
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post #2 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 08:33 AM
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I'd say the biggest difference is budget. Hollywood has more of it compared to most docs so much better post grading adjustments and workflow. But I have noticed in most underwater docs that they're hard to view at times when there are lots of fish moving about. I rarely see ghosting in Hollywood productions more so on docs. There's probably only a handful of titles that were 100 percent flawless with 3D. Avatar and Gravity would be two of them.

Are you sure it isn't ghosting? Try sitting further back and see if it still bothers you.

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post #3 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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tom....this is NOT ghosting....! It is more like a probleme in perspective. But also occurs when little is going on screen....in order to avoid this i have to concentrate on the background....so i forget the foreground....but make my eyes hurt anyway...
crosstalk bother me....but not to the extend of making my eyes cry...

So like i said...no one talks about this....and for me this is the biggest issue with 3D.
I know that Hollywood has more $$$$, but IMAX are reference level 3D and reviews only mention crosstalk...NEVER have i seen this parallax issue....

regarding the distance...i am at almost 3 meters away and 42" LED....it is enough; since on the movies i saw...i never had any issue...and even wanted to sit closer as that 3D was so GOOD tongue.gif
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post #4 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 11:20 AM
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I know if your eyes have to refocus to the top plane and then focus on the bottom plane that can cause strain. Do you have any 3D docs besides the underwater ones? I don't have born to be wild, I was trying to compare and see if I can find the same results.

The underwater ones I don't think are great 3D references, at least not 100 percent. They tend to hurt my eyes at times, mostly with large amounts of moving detail like small fish. But ironically the best 3D scene that everyone's seen is the potato cod on IMAX Under the Sea. I think this has to do with the fact that 1, it's not moving fast, but nearly stationary when the neg. parallax occurs 2, better resolution with a stationary image like a high resolution photo will always translate better than something fast moving with judder and 3 it's nearly centered in the screen which works best for that pop out effect and no matter where you are in the room it's coming out of the tv.

One that I like that has nice 3D is Grand Canyon: River at Risk. It's a well made doc and it doesn't bother my eyes. If there's a particular scene in Hubble or Under the Sea, give me the time code and I'll see if I can experience that too, I have both of those. Deep Sea I had on DVR but I think I deleted it. I have the Jean-Michel Cousteau 3d Film Trilogy, I think these are pretty good for under water, I didn't notice any flaws with them and it's a nicely priced bundle (just looked on Amazon it's around 13.00 for the bundle).
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post #5 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 11:44 AM
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Only 3D movie I've watched so far that REALLY bothered my eyes was Drive Angry. Don't know exactly what the problem with it is but I won't watch it again in 3D (yes, I know most of you will say how could you even consider watching it again). May have been crosstalk but couldn't focus my eyes on some of it and the experience wasn't pleasant.
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post #6 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 12:04 PM
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Never had a problem with Drive Angry and watched it with other people several times. Never had a problem with anything 3D on a DLP projector. Could just be because you're watching on LCD.
3D in the theater will not look the same in every seat.
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post #7 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 12:34 PM
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People don't talk about it because they don't all experience it!

You have already stated that you have issues with Active 3D systems being hard on your eyes whereas others don't have that problem so you have identified a difference with your vision compared to some other peoples. Its possible that whatever that difference is manifests itself with passive 3D too on certain titles. Imax 3D titles often use negative parallax (objects in front of the screen) more so than movies do and that is tiring on the eyes is pushed to extremes. With underwater 3D you have the added effect of lots of objects at different depths within the scene to contend with too and that pushes the eye strain even more.
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post #8 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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thanx for the input....well aside from deep sea & hubble...i also have The.ultimate.wave.tahiti.3D - also considered among the best ! and in there too i experience 3d on various scenes that hurt my eyes...

but the hubble+deep sea went back to my cousin...i only have tahiti left in my house....

i can't recall the scenes of deep sea..but there are many...even when little movement is going on...the neg. parallax can hurt my eyes...but i think you understand what i mean. if you have tahiti we can share results....biggrin.gif

I repeat it, but i find it INCREDIBLE that no single review mentions these perspecive/parallax problem in the reviews...not in IMAX not in anything...reviews only speak of ghosting when judging 3d generally...
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post #9 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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"Only 3D movie I've watched so far that REALLY bothered my eyes was Drive Angry. "

and DRIVE angry is considered a a reference 3d bluray !!!!!
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post #10 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcdesign View Post

People don't talk about it because they don't all experience it!

You have already stated that you have issues with Active 3D systems being hard on your eyes whereas others don't have that problem so you have identified a difference with your vision compared to some other peoples. Its possible that whatever that difference is manifests itself with passive 3D too on certain titles. Imax 3D titles often use negative parallax (objects in front of the screen) more so than movies do and that is tiring on the eyes is pushed to extremes. With underwater 3D you have the added effect of lots of objects at different depths within the scene to contend with too and that pushes the eye strain even more.

humm...maybe: a guy also told me IMAX bluray was optimized for IMAX screens/DLP...so maybe they did not bother to study the impact on small TV's...still if i am sensitive...so are all my family/friends:D
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post #11 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 02:29 PM
 
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Nenito:

I'm assuming you are using a bluray player that allows adjustment of 3D image separation--Left eye, Right eye? If so, try adjusting the separation. Objects at infinity on the TV should be separated at most by 2.5" (the standard width of your eyes). If they are greater than that, your eyes are forced to turn out, thus you will get eyestrain. OR, if objects at infinity are separated very little, then that causes foreground objects to have huge separations and forces you to look crosseyed. In this case some objects would appear very close to your eyes causing eyestrain. Or perhaps your passive TV does not align the left and right eye images properly. Take note with your 3D glasses off if the tops or bottoms of objects are aligned vertically--they should be separated horizontally only. If you notice that some objects in the center of the screen are aligned, but objects toward the edge are grossly out of alignment, then this will cause eyestrain, and is probably due to some flaw in your TV.

I'm also assuming you are using the correct polarized glasses for your TV, and that you look straight on at the TV and don't have your head tilted too much. Also, with passive TVs, there is a sweet-spot distance from the TV that you should be sitting within. Sitting too far away or too close, and you will get ghosting and eyestrain. I notice this with my passive PC monitor. If I'm too far away or off to the side of the screen, my eyes go buggy when watching 3D.
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post #12 of 73 Old 04-07-2014, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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amazing info threed
thanx....well first problem, my bd player is the ps3: no 3d settings at all, that might be an issue...
my tv is regarded as a very good passive so...nope,but it only has one setting for 3d a useless one,
tomorrow will try taking of glasses and see,not sure if i will be able to determine the complicated stuff you suggested smile.gif
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post #13 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 10:39 AM
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Buy a better TV. Our eyes never hurt on anything we've watched.

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post #14 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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nope can't do that!
why ? because this problem i state occurs even on other tv's i tested ! The best of the best and active on top of that:
samsung F8000 and sony HX710 & HX850....and panasonic plasma VT30 etc....
in every single tv i saw those issues.....and on different movies....
my guess is that your eyes are NOT like mine....period; good for you
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post #15 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 11:06 AM
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It could just be that you need to train your eyes and brain how to watch 3D content with large image separation. How much 3D have you actually watched? Give it time and you may get used to it.

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post #16 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nenito2k View Post

this problem i state occurs even on other tv's i tested ! The best of the best and active on top of that:
samsung F8000 and sony HX710 & HX850....and panasonic plasma VT30 etc....
in every single tv i saw those issues..
If it is the same for all the displays you've tried, then possibly a better Blu-ray player like an Oppo will be necessary for making 3D adjustments that a PS3 lacks in 3D settings.
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post #17 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 12:07 PM
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+1 to what threed123 said.

BTW, keep in mind that not all 3D movies are made equal, most are being shot with 2D techniques using 3D cameras, instead of being planned and directed with 3D in mind.
In those movies you see too often 'window violations' or other 3D flaws that cause headaches or eye strain, or simply lack of interest in 3D.
Other movies are even being shot in 2D and are converted to 3D afterwards supposedly for the "new and safe" 3D look...
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Originally Posted by nenito2k View Post

imax Hubble & Imax born to be wild & IMAX deep sea all suffer from one BIG FLAW that no reviews EVEN mentions !!!!!!l

I remember that I didn't like Hubble either, but that was a long time ago and I don't have the movie anymore to test it.
I'm guessing that the "big flaw" you're talking about is simply the lack of post-processing of the movie in order to place the stereo-window in a comfortable distance when shot with parallel cameras, OR the use of converged cameras which highly distorts the stereo alignment towards the corners of the screen -both make 3D less comfortable.

Sensitivity also varies among people, so if nothing else works for you, then you might need a TV (or Bluray) with "3D depth" adjustment, or just try to watch those movies from a greater distance.
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post #18 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

It could just be that you need to train your eyes and brain how to watch 3D content with large image separation. How much 3D have you actually watched? Give it time and you may get used to it.

i watched around 10 full BD movies + 4 BD documentaries + around 30 samples/trailers (that range from 30 seconds to 5mn....) so i did see HOURS and hours of 3d.... and played ps3 twice in 3d for an hour....

Thing is that with all movies cited on my first post, i have NOT SEEN ANY problem (the CROODS did have some slight issues on some negative parallax plans that did bother my eyes...but not that much and it was quick); those 3D were perfect for me....

If no review ever bother to mention this, maybe it is related to persons...and their tolerance...
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post #19 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H View Post

If it is the same for all the displays you've tried, then possibly a better Blu-ray player like an Oppo will be necessary for making 3D adjustments that a PS3 lacks in 3D settings.

i have the impressions that i am the only one on AVS that sees this BIG ISSUE on 3D blurays...i feel so alone frown.gif thank god my cousin+brother+wife also see the exact same thing
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post #20 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SoToS View Post

+1 to what threed123 said.

BTW, keep in mind that not all 3D movies are made equal, most are being shot with 2D techniques using 3D cameras, instead of being planned and directed with 3D in mind.
In those movies you see too often 'window violations' or other 3D flaws that cause headaches or eye strain, or simply lack of interest in 3D.
I'm guessing that the "big flaw" you're talking about is simply the lack of post-processing of the movie in order to place the stereo-window in a comfortable distance when shot with parallel cameras, OR the use of converged cameras which highly distorts the stereo alignment towards the corners of the screen -both make 3D less comfortable.

SOTOS that is exactly what i am experiencing rolleyes.gif mainly yes the corners/sides of the foreground image.....
What is incredible is that WINDOW violations are NEVER mentioned in reviews!! why ? this issues EXISTS on many many scenes...and all people i know ARE sensitive to this problem....yet no one bothers to mention its existence.....

people did talk about it in 2011/2012 a little...but since 2013...nada ! hell even if i type "window violation" on google i get almost nothing !

like said many movies i saw were fine...and yesterday i watched BRAVE 3d...and while the 3D was not as "STABLE" and perfect as HUGO or gravity...it was more than good for my eyes......

thanx for the explanations....i REALLY hope that people/expert reviewers will talk more about what i CONSIDER the biggest 3d FLAW during the tests on 3D blurays.....and one of the reasons people can't stand 3D....as it was the case for me for 4 years.....
thanx for the input! appreciate it
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post #21 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 05:50 PM
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Probably because most professionally-made 3D movies compensate or account for window violations in some form. The "floating window" is the simplest solution, and I often don't realize it's there. I would say pretty much any genuine problem with a 3D title usually always boils down to the fact that they didn't give a crap about the 3D presentation except as a checkbox on the list, and for marketing purposes.
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post #22 of 73 Old 04-08-2014, 06:24 PM
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@ nenito2k
You're welcome. 'Stereo window violation' will give you more results. Just to clarify, this is just one of the three possible cases (and causes) I mentioned, but of course there are many more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

I would say pretty much any genuine problem with a 3D title usually always boils down to the fact that they didn't give a crap about the 3D presentation except as a checkbox on the list, and for marketing purposes.

Exactly. Stereoscopic 3D is an art by itself (and also science) and as such great examples are rare -especially because the entertainment business doesn't care about art that much. Another reason is that it is relatively new -there is not much experience and knowledge accumulated yet and not many great examples.
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post #23 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 02:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post

Probably because most professionally-made 3D movies compensate or account for window violations in some form. The "floating window" is the simplest solution, and I often don't realize it's there. I would say pretty much any genuine problem with a 3D title usually always boils down to the fact that they didn't give a crap about the 3D presentation except as a checkbox on the list, and for marketing purposes.

sure....nonetheless journalist HAVE to point out theses issues when reviewing discs....It is their job to do so...and point out how severe the cases are in each movies....
A 3D bluray is WAY too expensive....and people have the right to know if it is worth it. Fortunately i am patient and buy my 3D stuff only when prices are LOW....

Anyone this thread should stay so people can describe any issue whatsoever in any MOVIE....we can share the experience & compare our sensitivities.....

Great info all of ya:p
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post #24 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 07:22 AM
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Could the issue be the same thing I have? Newer discs don't match the left eye and right eye up properly on my player. Therefore when watching, you get a headache and a hard time describing it to anyone else. If on a passive set, close each eye one at a time with glasses on and see if it matches up mostly or if it is pretty far off. here is mine:

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post #25 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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interesting picture there....so on the same FRAME left & right eye do not SEE the same image ?! eek.gif
How could that even BE ????? mad.gif
Is that it ? What movie is this ? What player do you use ? did you try on another player ??? How frequent are your "troubles" with 3D ????

An important thing i FORGOT to mention is that when my eyes get crossed/hurt etc...because of negative parallax....the solution i have found is TO FOCUS on background and AVOID looking at foreground objects on that specific scene....
But doing this make me work hard to enjoy 3D...and causes extra strain overall !

that is the MAIN reason i hated 3D for SOOOOOOO long, It is only last month that i started enjoying a little, when i saw CROODS, gravity & HUGO + Titanic; 3D was sooo good and natural & most of all STABLE !!!!! PERFECT !

on a side note another ISSUE rarely mentioned is the "COMIC BOOK effect" : in many documentaries and some lower budget movies....PEOPLE moving on screen in 3D look smoother/ too detached with a different texture than the rest of the environment !!! Dunno how to describe it....BUT the best way i can find is LIKE having enabled MFC (motionflow, 24p smooth film, MCI...according to manufacturer of tv...) on your TV when watching 2D movies AKA the SOAP OPERA effect !!!!

I just can't stand THIS CRAP !!! Makes 3D look FAKE FAKE FAKE !!!!! again movies mentioned above DID not have that in 90% of the scenes at least....
I did see this HORRIBLE effect when watching IMAX born to be wild !!! mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif

Do any of you understand what i mean ? or is it chinese ?biggrin.gif
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post #26 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 08:30 AM
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I have a Samsung HT-F4500/ZA system. I know no one else who even owns a 3D Blu-Ray player, so I can't test out the movie on anyone else's system. The movie in question is The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug. Right, for some reason in playback, it is showing the right frame slightly ahead of the left frame, when they should be identical, but shifted. I have read about this problem with stuff like Drive Angry and Rio, but that was on a Sony BDP-S590 player, and a firmware update was released that corrected the issue, so I have hope that it will be fixed for mine still. The other movie it does this on is Walking With Dinosaurs the 3D Movie. Both Gravity and The Wolverine (my only other 3D Discs) play perfect.
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post #27 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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i see...great explanation. It is down to the BD player i guess....maybe in my case ps3...is not good enough compared to others?
in your case i doubt there will ever be a firmware that fixes this...the flaw is too obvious it should have never past QC at samsung..... frown.gif
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post #28 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 10:19 AM
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The issue isn't so much in the player, as it is in the ever-changing technology of Blu-ray and specifically 3D discs. I have a friend who couldn't play Catching Fire on Blu-Ray until after he did a firmware update. Authoring changes all the time, and codecs used in encoding are constantly changing as well. Firmware updates are designed to keep up with these things so that your discs will keep going. Samsung still sells the model I have, so it is likely more firmware updates will come, just probably not soon enough for me to finish up The Hobbit in 3D.
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post #29 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H View Post

If it is the same for all the displays you've tried, then possibly a better Blu-ray player like an Oppo will be necessary for making 3D adjustments that a PS3 lacks in 3D settings.
That guy could be right. If it's a mess for everyone who watches on every source it's gotta either be the TV, glasses, or player. You can't all be nuts lol. Like I said we never have a problem and have watched probalby 15 movies on a Samsung player from Costco.
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post #30 of 73 Old 04-09-2014, 09:06 PM
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I've never had the problem of non-synced frames. That's a serious issue, and one that I wouldn't normally suspect is even possible considering how frame-packing works (it's basically one large image, sent from player>receiver>TV all as one). But the photo doesn't lie.. you can even see the ghosting of the other frame in the left image.

You don't have any sort of processing going on, do you? TruMotion, anything like that? I'm trying to think of what other settings are in an LG that might do something like that (that is an LG, right? It's passive, like mine). My player (Sony BDP-maybe590, something or other) doesn't have any settings that I can think of, and my receiver (Yamaha) just does passthrough.. any kind of external influence on the image would have to come from the TV, assuming that's what's happening here.

My TV does do some strange things now and again. As a purist, I turn off every single option that the TV has for adjusting the picture, but when playing 3D games, I still get some weird wobbling/fluttering effect of the TV doing some kind of processing that it doesn't have a switch for to turn off. In those cases, switching it to Game mode worked, but if I have every single option turned off, then Game mode should no longer make a difference... and yet it does. Maybe just dig around through all the menus on the TV and see if you can find a setting that works for it.
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