3D blurays - Do they always include a 2d version? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 07-22-2014, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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3D blurays - Do they always include a 2d version?

We just got out first 3D movie, Avatar, and it has an option in the menu to play the 3D or 2D version.

Do all 3D BDs have this option or are some titles including a second disc for the 2D version while others aren't including a 2D version at all?

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post #2 of 21 Old 07-22-2014, 02:21 PM
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Not all 3D BD have the 2D version on the same disc. ...It is often on a second separate disc (in particular the ones done with taste and great picture and sound quality recorded @ a higher rate, as they need the full storage of one BD50).

* 'OZ - The Great and Powerful', from Disney, is the worst packaging ever in the history of Blu-ray!
{You had to purchase two Blu-ray versions in order to have them both; the 3D and 2D versions. ...Costly!}

And 'The LEGO Movie - Everything is Awesome Edition' is another type of financial scam, where you need to purchase kids toys in order to get the 3D version! ...You pay a premium for them kids toys (no bonus price reduction here).

<<>> When you purchase a 3D Blu-ray movie, the 2D version is included (always). ...Or on the same disc, or on another separate disc. ...And none will not include the 2D version, except for scams like Disney did with 'Oz - The Great and Powerful Scam'.

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post #3 of 21 Old 07-22-2014, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.

What toys do you need to buy for the Lego Everything is Awesome Edition? I didn't notice any extra purchases when looking at the Amazon title.

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post #4 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pdxrealtor View Post
What toys do you need to buy for the Lego Everything is Awesome Edition? I didn't notice any extra purchases when looking at the Amazon title.
He means that the 3D version of that movie is only available in the "Everything Is Awesome" box set, which comes packaged with a Lego minifig and other physical paraphernalia in order to charge a high price markup for the "collectible" crap that not everyone wants.

You can get the 3D Blu-ray cheaper by importing from the UK, where it's sold in a standard package:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lego-Movie-B...dp/B00EXPOEGO/
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post #5 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
You can get the 3D Blu-ray cheaper by importing from the UK, where it's sold in a standard package:
It's worth a reminder to someone who may or may not have done this before to be mindful of regions when purchasing overseas (especially via an overseas website such as amazon.co.uk), as with Josh's link that is listed as "region free". If you live in region A, and you're buying overseas: if the region isn't specified, don't buy it. I'm still not 100% sure to what extent differing regions are truly locked out on different BDPs, but from the folks at AVS it seems like a big deal.

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #6 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post
It's worth a reminder to someone who may or may not have done this before to be mindful of regions when purchasing overseas (especially via an overseas website such as amazon.co.uk), as with Josh's link that is listed as "region free". If you live in region A, and you're buying overseas: if the region isn't specified, don't buy it. I'm still not 100% sure to what extent differing regions are truly locked out on different BDPs, but from the folks at AVS it seems like a big deal.
The Lego Movie is a Warner Bros. title, and Warner's Blu-rays are almost always region-free.

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post #7 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
* 'OZ - The Great and Powerful', from Disney, is the worst packaging ever in the history of Blu-ray!
{You had to purchase two Blu-ray versions in order to have them both; the 3D and 2D versions. ...Costly!}
I wasn't aware of this with OZ-GAP. It's worth noting though that a region-free seems to be available that combine both 3D and 2D for this movie.


Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #8 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 12:22 PM
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Alright, I was stuck in my own continent, America.

You and Josh are absolutely right; you can go beyond America and get the goods (from other countries, and Amazon who is more universal).
{Except for Amazon.ca because in Canada we get screwed big time.}

I admit; on a global website like AVS Forum, we have to open our eyes to the entire world, not just here on the American continent - South, Central, USA, and North America :: region (A) ...Alaska, Hawaii.

The OP (and other members too) don't mention their world location; which is fine. But I do; and that's how I reply in accordance to - America.
I'll try to remember this next time, thanks to you guys. ...Global thinking.
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post #9 of 21 Old 07-23-2014, 08:33 PM
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Although I tend to watch these movies always in 3D, there are times when I take a movie over to a friend's house that doesn't have 3D capability. The pack-in of a 2D version does affect my purchase decision, and I haven't bought OZ for this very reason.

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post #10 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post
Although I tend to watch these movies always in 3D, there are times when I take a movie over to a friend's house that doesn't have 3D capability. The pack-in of a 2D version does affect my purchase decision, and I haven't bought OZ for this very reason.
No, I wouldn't either. Besides, a 2D version should be different anyway from a 3D version with 3D turned off.

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #11 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 10:32 AM
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I will sometimes play the 3D disc, but shut off the 3D on my PJ. Usually just when we eat, and then I can turn the 3D on afterwards.
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post #12 of 21 Old 07-24-2014, 01:10 PM
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All 3D videos coded in MVC contain the 2D version that can be read and played by a 2D BD player (backward compatibility). It may be at a lower bitrate, though. And it may be prevented from playing by a setting on the disk (with many 3D disks, when I switch TMT5 to 2D, I get a message that it requires a 3D player and refuses to play, even after DRM is removed; they play fine in MPC-HC, though).
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post #13 of 21 Old 07-26-2014, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roussi View Post
All 3D videos coded in MVC contain the 2D version that can be read and played by a 2D BD player (backward compatibility). It may be at a lower bitrate, though. And it may be prevented from playing by a setting on the disk (with many 3D disks, when I switch TMT5 to 2D, I get a message that it requires a 3D player and refuses to play, even after DRM is removed; they play fine in MPC-HC, though).
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't almost all 3D blu-rays constructed the same way? Meaning you have your "main" M2TS files and then your "corresponding" ssif file. Not to confuse the OP but for those of us who routinely use a computer to either make backups or to play their BD's. There shouldn't be any loss of quality from the 3D to 2D or vice versa. If you can "open" the disk you can just play the main M2TS file in the STREAM directory under BDMV. VLC or the like will play it no probs.

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post #14 of 21 Old 07-26-2014, 09:08 AM
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The problem with that is, like TGM mentioned, turning off 3D and watching only one eye is not the same as watching the 2D version. It's not a matter of encoding, it's a matter of how the film was shot, framed, and displayed. Depth-of-Field differences, focal points, and especially the floating window for edge violations. They don't keep them separate just for kicks, they do it for a reason.

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post #15 of 21 Old 07-26-2014, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post
The problem with that is, like TGM mentioned, turning off 3D and watching only one eye is not the same as watching the 2D version. It's not a matter of encoding, it's a matter of how the film was shot, framed, and displayed. Depth-of-Field differences, focal points, and especially the floating window for edge violations. They don't keep them separate just for kicks, they do it for a reason.
IMO, films really should be shot with 3 cameras per mount. I wonder how James Cameron is planning on shooting Avatar 2...

Java developers, when I saw what has been placed into Java 8 I was immediately reminded of how I've spent so much of my life trying to protect engineers from themselves. Lambda expressions are a horrible idea. Gentlemen: the goal isn't to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer. The goal is to make code readable for a competent mid-level engineer exhausted and hopped up on caffeine at 3 am. What a disaster Java 8 is!
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post #16 of 21 Old 07-26-2014, 10:23 AM
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I think Cameron would be happy if a 2D version never existed.

Wouldn't that be a coup? lol.. if he only released it 3D, in theaters and home video.

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post #17 of 21 Old 07-26-2014, 05:28 PM
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Not all 3D releases have a 2D version included, that is, playable from the disc. You can of course use software to get a 2D version from the 3D MVC track. I have a few that are just 3D, no 2D.
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post #18 of 21 Old 07-28-2014, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetmech101 View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't almost all 3D blu-rays constructed the same way? Meaning you have your "main" M2TS files and then your "corresponding" ssif file. Not to confuse the OP but for those of us who routinely use a computer to either make backups or to play their BD's. There shouldn't be any loss of quality from the 3D to 2D or vice versa. If you can "open" the disk you can just play the main M2TS file in the STREAM directory under BDMV. VLC or the like will play it no probs.
Not sure about all BD3Ds, but on a few, I could not find a M2TS file anywhere on the disk. It's all in the SSIF file - the full h.264-coded stream with the left view, and the complimentary stream with the right view; not sure how the 2D players parse them, but they see only the primary stream, and not the complimentary.
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post #19 of 21 Old 08-03-2014, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post
The problem with that is, like TGM mentioned, turning off 3D and watching only one eye is not the same as watching the 2D version. It's not a matter of encoding, it's a matter of how the film was shot, framed, and displayed. Depth-of-Field differences, focal points, and especially the floating window for edge violations. They don't keep them separate just for kicks, they do it for a reason.
I'd ask Jedi or anyone else who might care to respond:
1. Are there any frame by frame comparisons posted on the net highlighting such differences with particular movies?

2. Are there any movies where all post production editing was concentrated on 3D and the released 2D Blu-ray version happens to be identical to the left view of the released 3D Blu-ray version?


I haven't bothered to do any frame by frame comparisons myself of commercially released 3D movies, e.g. comparing the look of a frame from the 3D Blu-ray played in 3D with the display set to display the left view only; and the same frame number in the 2D Blu-ray played in 2D with the display in ordinary 2D mode.


I note:
  • for a movie shot in 3D, i.e. with separate left and right lenses, by convention the 2D version of the movie uses as its source the left camera view. (That view could of course be edited in post production differently to whatever is done with that view for the purposes of the 3D version of the movie.)
  • if a stereoscopic MVC file is played on a player unable to decode the supplementary (right) view, the player may nevertheless be able to extract and play the main (left) view.
  • with amateur 3D video, if you want to burn a 2D version of your video, you simply set the linear editor to output the left view. If you have made adjustments to sections of the video to avoid edge violations and tweak the horizontal displacement between left and right views (e.g. using Vegas Pro), I suspect the editor will honour such adjustments for extracting a left view only rendering.
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post #20 of 21 Old 08-03-2014, 10:19 AM
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There have been some comparisons here on AVS some time ago, but I don't have any direct links.

Here's some examples of the kinds of changes you can sometimes see. This is not all-inclusive, and not all movies will have them, but they will crop up now and again:

1) Floating Window - The black bars on the left or right side of the image designed to eliminate the artifacts associated with edge breaking for negative parallax ("pop-out"). These often appear on both the left and right eyes, meaning the left eye will have a bar on one side, and the right will have the bar on the other. This one is very common. It's designed to be unobtrusive when watching the 3D video (and it generally is), but will probably be quite jarring if watching it 2D without the other eye filling in the gap.

2) Depth of Field - There's been one or two examples where the 2D version had a blurred background (traditional depth of field) where the 3D version had clear backgrounds and used the camera's convergence to focus the viewer's eyes on whatever the subject was. I think Avatar may have done this. Probably more common on CGI films that can simply re-render the background.

3) Brightness - Again, more common on CGI films. The 3D version will bump up the brightness/gamma a couple notches to compensate for the glasses, so the overall brightness of the picture looks the same on 3D and 2D versions.

There are, no doubt, versions created where one side can be the "default" view. These are probably the ones where both versions are included on one disc and the movie gives you the choice of which one to watch. Dredd is the only one I have that does this. It's doubtful there's enough room on the disc for both versions, so it seems much more likely that it's extracting one side for the 2D version. In that case, your idea of extracting a 2D version from a 3D file would probably work.

I've never heard that there's a "convention" on which side to use as the default, the left as you say. For conversions in particular, it would be more beneficial to use the right side, as the majority of your viewers are right-eye dominant, thus the converted side on the left (with the artifacts associated with conversion) would be used only to add depth. Since there's no logic in using a different standard depending on native versus converted, I would think that the right side would be the "default" image for most viewers.

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post #21 of 21 Old 08-03-2014, 12:30 PM
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Jedi, thanks very much for your response. A floating vertical black bar in a 2D presentation would certainly be distracting.

As regards which view to use as the base view and which the dependent view in stereoscopic h.264-MVC encoding, a lot of the generally descriptive material I have read does not commit either way, and I suspect that fully compliant stereoscopic MVC encoders and decoders would need to be able to cater for either Left or Right as the base view. However I have seen several webpages that refer to the Left as being commonly used as the base view. An informal "geeky" article about x264-MVC encoding presents the matter categorically (perhaps too emphatically) where it states [3rd sentence in the 3rd paragraph of the webpage http://wp.xin.at/archives/784 ]:

"This extension is for the right eye and works like a diff stream or like DTS MLP data roughly, so while the full 2D left eye stream may be 10GB in size, the right eye one (as it only contains parts that are different from the left eye stream) will be maybe around 5GB."




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