Dr Strange 3D -- Picture severely offset for each eye? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 08-21-2017, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Dr Strange 3D -- Picture severely offset for each eye?

Edit: The issue is that when it's projecting 3D, the wrong eye is partly visible in the black bar area, making it more visually distracting than it should be. See my later post with images, comparing it to an OLED.
---
I was watching Dr Strange 3D on my new UH8500 yesterday, and I noticed these huge areas on each side of the picture, where that part of the image was blank for one of the eyes. It is horribly distracting. I also noticed it during the Marvel Intro itself. It grows/shrinks seemingly based on whether there is something that's supposed to pop out near that edge of the screen...I think??

Is this normal?

Examples -- I took pictures, but when paused I think it only shows the picture for the left eye.

Marvel intro...
* bad left side only: http://i.imgur.com/ABdrpwP.png
* neither side: http://i.imgur.com/usLcrM9.png

Dr Strange 2nd scene...
* horrible left side: http://i.imgur.com/kKsB5Zd.png
* horrible right side (you can't see it in the picture tho because it's paused and showing only left eye): http://i.imgur.com/WlLNAcn.png
* neither side: http://i.imgur.com/meypxl7.png

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Last edited by webdj777; 08-31-2017 at 12:24 AM.
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post #2 of 17 Old 08-21-2017, 05:48 AM
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you may have a "bad" disc; that doesn't sound normal to me
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post #3 of 17 Old 08-21-2017, 04:00 PM
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Yes, it's normal. The black bars commonly called: "floating windows" are added when objects on the side of the screen, left or right are visible in one eye but not the other which is called edge violation.
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post #4 of 17 Old 08-21-2017, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Yes, it's normal. The black bars commonly called: "floating windows" are added when objects on the side of the screen, left or right are visible in one eye but not the other which is called edge violation.
So it's normal to sometimes see an image on the left edge through my right eye, but not my left eye?

So, why is that better than just cropping it out of both eyes? It feels so obvious and distracting that the picture is 'wrong' when you see big blurry/translucent edges of the screen that don't match up in both eyes IMO. I've never seen that in a theater.

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post #5 of 17 Old 08-21-2017, 09:50 PM
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Yes, normal that the black bars are burned that way in the frame on the disc, I can't say for theatrical releases, though I don't know why they would be any different. There isn't anything wrong with the disc.

The only solution would be to leave the edge violation in place which means you have an object in one eye but not the other which can be more distracting. I've shot some 3D where there's edge violations then added the black bars then removed and went back and forth to see what looked better. Depending on how long the scene is, the size and amount of edge violation, the black bar can be easier to look at. I typically only add the floating windows when the edge violation is severe but it's really up to the stereographer. If they filmed it in 3D then they could have reshot the scene and removed the edge violation since they would be monitoring 3D on the spot, converted movies they would have to go back later and reshoot.

The ones that are really distracting are the floating windows that move in and out. I haven't seen too many of those fortunately.

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post #6 of 17 Old 08-22-2017, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdj777 View Post
I was watching Dr Strange 3D on my new UH8500 yesterday, and I noticed these huge areas on each side of the picture, where that part of the image was blank for one of the eyes. It is horribly distracting. I also noticed it during the Marvel Intro itself. It grows/shrinks seemingly based on whether there is something that's supposed to pop out near that edge of the screen...I think??

Is this normal?

Examples -- I took pictures, but when paused I think it only shows the picture for the left eye.

Marvel intro...
* bad left side only: http://i.imgur.com/ABdrpwP.png
* neither side: http://i.imgur.com/usLcrM9.png

Dr Strange 2nd scene...
* horrible left side: http://i.imgur.com/kKsB5Zd.png
* horrible right side (you can't see it in the picture tho because it's paused and showing only left eye): http://i.imgur.com/WlLNAcn.png
* neither side: http://i.imgur.com/meypxl7.png
I didn't notice this on my setup when I watched it. You've made me curious, I'll have to go back and check now but I assume it's something I'd have noticed.

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post #7 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Yes, normal that the black bars are burned that way in the frame on the disc, I can't say for theatrical releases, though I don't know why they would be any different. There isn't anything wrong with the disc.

The only solution would be to leave the edge violation in place which means you have an object in one eye but not the other which can be more distracting. I've shot some 3D where there's edge violations then added the black bars then removed and went back and forth to see what looked better. Depending on how long the scene is, the size and amount of edge violation, the black bar can be easier to look at. I typically only add the floating windows when the edge violation is severe but it's really up to the stereographer. If they filmed it in 3D then they could have reshot the scene and removed the edge violation since they would be monitoring 3D on the spot, converted movies they would have to go back later and reshoot.

The ones that are really distracting are the floating windows that move in and out. I haven't seen too many of those fortunately.
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Originally Posted by bontrager View Post
you may have a "bad" disc; that doesn't sound normal to me
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Originally Posted by KB77Hell View Post
I didn't notice this on my setup when I watched it. You've made me curious, I'll have to go back and check now but I assume it's something I'd have noticed.
Ok guys, I've figured it out why what you guys are saying doesn't make sense to me. It seems to depend on the TV -- it happens on the LG U8500 (2016 LCD), but not on the LG OLED65E6P (2016 OLED). Now I wonder whether this is 'normal' for LCD TVs.

Take a look -- I took a series of 3 pictures at roughly the same spot in a scene -- without glasses, through the left eye glass, and through the right eye glass.

As expected, when not looking through glasses, you'll see the edges of the screen are darker, where it is supposed (if I understand it) to display for one eye only. On the OLED, this seems to work as I would expect, when you look through each eye's glass the picture is cut off on one edge but looks perfectly normal on the opposite side. However, on the LCD, it not only cuts off the one edge, but the opposite edge still appears darker!

I don't know whether this is truly a brightness issue or that part of the wrong eye is visible there or what. But this causes what I was describing in my initial post, where trying to enjoy the show on the LCD is very distracting, because the edges of the screen are not simply just hidden for one eye. On the OLED, you'd likely never notice.

Is this normal for LCDs? Is this the way this movie was encoded, or my TV or what?

(I put lines to indicate where the edge of the TV is and where the offsets/dark areas are).

LCD without glasses:


OLED without glasses:


OLED looking through LEFT eye:


LCD looking through LEFT eye:


OLED looking through RIGHT eye:


LCD looking through RIGHT eye:


See what I mean? Is this a problem with my LCD tv, all LCD tvs, or this one particular movie?

David
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Last edited by webdj777; 08-27-2017 at 01:47 AM.
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post #8 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 01:32 PM
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So on the LCD with left view you're seeing some right eye on the right side of screen? No, that wouldn't be normal. Sometimes you do with high contrast scenes which is crosstalk but it wouldn't just be a vertical bar.

Are you playing the movie from the disc? Blu ray player to TV or AVR?

Make sure you're display or player isn't set to reverse left/right frames.

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post #9 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
So on the LCD with left view you're seeing some right eye on the right side of screen? No, that wouldn't be normal. Sometimes you do with high contrast scenes which is crosstalk but it wouldn't just be a vertical bar.

Are you playing the movie from the disc? Blu ray player to TV or AVR?

Make sure you're display or player isn't set to reverse left/right frames.
I don't know if I'm seeing some right eye or not. Does it look like it's showing the wrong eye to you in that edge of the pictures I posted of just one eye on the LCD? It's clearly shaded if nothing else. In the "LCD looking through LEFT eye" picture, it does look like the top of the bus has a slightly different angle on that edge, so maybe something more than just a brightness issue is going on there?

And no, the 3D settings are correct/default. The 3D looks totally fine, other than those edges which look weird. I previously owned a Toshiba from 2010 that had lots of crosstalk issues, so I'm very aware of those sorts of issues usually (there's only like 2 scenes which I notice crosstalk in Dr Strange on the LCD, though I didn't notice any on the OLED).

Both TVs are from the identical input (LG UP970 blu-ray player) & cable (manually walking over and unplugging it from one tv and plugging it into the other to test). Maybe I need to find someone with an LCD panel who has Dr Strange to test for me. I know you have an OLED, where this doesn't appear.

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Last edited by webdj777; 08-27-2017 at 04:42 PM.
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post #10 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 05:17 PM
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Actually, I don't have OLED (yet). Give me the time segment on that image and I'll check it out later when I get a chance.

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post #11 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, I don't have OLED (yet). Give me the time segment on that image and I'll check it out later when I get a chance.
Sure! It's at 2 min, 47 sec. The opening sequence of the movie, right as they run outside after stealing the page from the book.

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post #12 of 17 Old 08-27-2017, 09:14 PM
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I played a little of this about 30 mins ago and I tried it on PJ and 140" screen in theater room. I have it ripped to top/bottom. I left the PJ in 2D and just let it play. I can visually see the black bars since the two views are stacked so left on top and right on bottom. The vertical bars were all over the place on the scene I selected which was around 1:18:00 mark. It even has the moving windows that go in and out. And it does it for both right and left. I see what you mean on the view coming thru on the other eye, when I put it in 3D mode, if you focus in that area it bleeds thru a little.

Maybe your OLED screen does a better job of keeping the views from bleeding thru and that's why it looks worse on the LCD. Given how prevalent the floating windows are used in this movie I think it overall hurts the 3D because you loose spacial image at times since both eyes aren't seeing the same thing. I think the floating windows should only be used when absolutely necessary, specifically if you're going to be looking at a stationary scene for longer durations. Just my opinion. In scene I sampled the floating windows are happening rather quickly and frequently. Which I don't think would really warrant adding the floating windows.

I still don't think there's anything wrong with your screen or setup and it's that way on the disc so everyone's seeing the same thing. I didn't go thru the whole movie but I'd bet it does the floating windows a lot throughout the movie.

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post #13 of 17 Old 08-29-2017, 03:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I played a little of this about 30 mins ago and I tried it on PJ and 140" screen in theater room. I have it ripped to top/bottom. I left the PJ in 2D and just let it play. I can visually see the black bars since the two views are stacked so left on top and right on bottom. The vertical bars were all over the place on the scene I selected which was around 1:18:00 mark. It even has the moving windows that go in and out. And it does it for both right and left. I see what you mean on the view coming thru on the other eye, when I put it in 3D mode, if you focus in that area it bleeds thru a little.

Maybe your OLED screen does a better job of keeping the views from bleeding thru and that's why it looks worse on the LCD. Given how prevalent the floating windows are used in this movie I think it overall hurts the 3D because you loose spacial image at times since both eyes aren't seeing the same thing. I think the floating windows should only be used when absolutely necessary, specifically if you're going to be looking at a stationary scene for longer durations. Just my opinion. In scene I sampled the floating windows are happening rather quickly and frequently. Which I don't think would really warrant adding the floating windows.

I still don't think there's anything wrong with your screen or setup and it's that way on the disc so everyone's seeing the same thing. I didn't go thru the whole movie but I'd bet it does the floating windows a lot throughout the movie.
Perfect, thanks for the thorough investigation. Glad to know it's the disk and not my setup. And good to know you also had a similar feeling about how the floating windows were used. Thanks!

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post #14 of 17 Old 08-29-2017, 08:20 AM
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Tom is spot on with his description of what you see as the missing left or right eye sides. Why that is done is also correctly stated. Editors do not call it "black bars added" but rather "cropping" of the left or right eye image. This leaves a strip of black where the edge of either the left or right eye is cropped. As an editor, I find this practice a mistake in editing technique. When this happens in my video, especially with wide inter axial cameras and close up objects in the shot, I prefer to simply zoom in so the entire scene crops out those objects. The scene is not as wide angle as originally shot but the 3D depth on the sides is never disrupted as it is with the cropping or not doing anything at all.

The viewer may be able to fix this in his TV also if there is a setting in your menus to overscan the movie. Unfortunately, any TV that has this option would mask the entire movie. That falls under that old category of "pick your poison."

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post #15 of 17 Old 08-31-2017, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Tom is spot on with his description of what you see as the missing left or right eye sides. Why that is done is also correctly stated. Editors do not call it "black bars added" but rather "cropping" of the left or right eye image. This leaves a strip of black where the edge of either the left or right eye is cropped. As an editor, I find this practice a mistake in editing technique. When this happens in my video, especially with wide inter axial cameras and close up objects in the shot, I prefer to simply zoom in so the entire scene crops out those objects. The scene is not as wide angle as originally shot but the 3D depth on the sides is never disrupted as it is with the cropping or not doing anything at all.

The viewer may be able to fix this in his TV also if there is a setting in your menus to overscan the movie. Unfortunately, any TV that has this option would mask the entire movie. That falls under that old category of "pick your poison."
Hi Don, I don't think you quite understood the discussion The issue was not the black bars itself, but the fact that that you see part of the wrong eye/darker color in the black bars, making it look wrong.

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post #16 of 17 Old 08-31-2017, 09:56 AM
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I assume Don was referring to your first post before you made your edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdj777 View Post
[
I was watching Dr Strange 3D on my new UH8500 yesterday, and I noticed these huge areas on each side of the picture, where that part of the image was blank for one of the eyes. It is horribly distracting. I also noticed it during the Marvel Intro itself. It grows/shrinks seemingly based on whether there is something that's supposed to pop out near that edge of the screen...I think??

Is this normal?
I tried this movie again and this time set overscan to max and it crops out the sides and zooms in to fill the screen which blocks out the black bars. Overall, I do find this method better for this movie. Once you see the black bars it's hard to not notice them. If you stare at the center of the screen it helps but only so much.

Other thing I noticed about this movie (and a lot of other movies), is how dark they tend to be. Suicide Squad was also really dark for most of the movie. I know I don't have the brightest projector and also using a generic bulb but good grief can we get movies that are lit better? I tried Suicide Squad on my 4K LG and it's a little better but still it's just a very dark movie.

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post #17 of 17 Old 09-01-2017, 06:15 AM
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Tried on 4K LG and changed to Zoom AR. Removes the offending black bars on sides. On this screen there is some visible eye in the black bar like you experienced. I believe this is the same effect as crosstalk, it's just bleeding thru in that area because it's black in one eye and then the film image in the other and LCD's are slow so you get crosstalk. Basically, it's a crosstalk issue but one that could have been avoided if they didn't use floating windows. They also used very wide windows taking up almost 1/8th of the screen at times and then even more annoying they are moving windows which adjust during the middle of a scene. I'll probably just zoom in from now on on these movies that do this.

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