Looking for a 55" - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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In the $1300-1500 range. I was looking at the Sony KDL55NX720 which is around $1500 on amazon, but Ive seen too many complaints on this site about that TV. I don't trust it.

Really no idea what to go with here. Any advice is appreciated.

Just so you know, I have no interest in 3D.
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post #2 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 08:47 AM
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Best Buy has the UN55D6900 for $1699 with two pairs of glassed and a 3-d blu-ray player. You could probably tell them you don't want the 3-d blu-ray player and get it for $1539. If you have a PS3 you don't need it anyways. I'm contemplating this decision myself, I think these models may come down even further when the 2012 models come out.
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post #3 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Best Buy has the UN55D6900 for $1699 with two pairs of glassed and a 3-d blu-ray player. You could probably tell them you don't want the 3-d blu-ray player and get it for $1539. If you have a PS3 you don't need it anyways. I'm contemplating this decision myself, I think these models may come down even further when the 2012 models come out.

Lol I just watched a review of that TV and someone wrote, "I just watched inception on this TV via blu ray and the judder is horrible!!!!!"

I think it's literally impossible to find a TV that's perfect. There seems to be issues with all of them. It's very irritating. I have a Samsung 42" in the extra room and PQ is awful.

I really have no idea what to go with.
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post #4 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 10:10 AM
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I have had the Sony for a couple weeks and it is working out well enough for me. Just leave the black correction on and you probably wont notice to many problems. The EX720 may not exhibit the same problems the NX has and it is about the same price.

Just turned on my first projector on 17 Aug 2007 and I think I am hooked :).

Why does everyone that comes over ask how much it cost?
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post #5 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by trenken View Post

Lol I just watched a review of that TV and someone wrote, "I just watched inception on this TV via blu ray and the judder is horrible!!!!!"

I think it's literally impossible to find a TV that's perfect. There seems to be issues with all of them. It's very irritating. I have a Samsung 42" in the extra room and PQ is awful.

I really have no idea what to go with.

You are right, it is going to be impossible to find one that is perfect. I had the 46" version of this tv, the picture is great and the smart hub and 3-d look great. The only reason I took it back was Best Buy messed up my price match and screwed me out of $130. It's hard to pull the trigger on a tv right now with the 2012 models coming out, they may drop the prices even further on the 2011 models. They do have the UN55D7000 on sale from the Amazon warehouse for $1531, that one has 240hz, may reduce the judder even further. Let me know what you end up doing, I'm kind of in the same boat.
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post #6 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by balla01 View Post

You are right, it is going to be impossible to find one that is perfect. I had the 46" version of this tv, the picture is great and the smart hub and 3-d look great. The only reason I took it back was Best Buy messed up my price match and screwed me out of $130. It's hard to pull the trigger on a tv right now with the 2012 models coming out, they may drop the prices even further on the 2011 models. They do have the UN55D7000 on sale from the Amazon warehouse for $1531, that one has 240hz, may reduce the judder even further. Let me know what you end up doing, I'm kind of in the same boat.

Have a link to it? I'm seeing it for around 1800 on amazon.
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post #7 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 11:21 AM
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You can find Amazon Warehouse deals under the used tab for this item. The condition is marked as good. Personally I wouldn't drop $1500 on a used but good tv.
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post #8 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 11:24 AM
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I have read reviews on Amazon warehouse and they always seem to be pretty good. It would be like buying an open box from Best Buy, I guess it's all preference. If the tv is in good condition, I am fine with paying $700 less than what I pay at a normal retailer.
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post #9 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 01:44 PM
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There is sale almost every week for less than the used price you are seeing. That's why I'm a bit confused why someone would pay more for a used good condition tv.
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post #10 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by swolfcg View Post

There is sale almost every week for less than the used price you are seeing. That's why I'm a bit confused why someone would pay more for a used good condition tv.

Show me where I can buy the UN55D7000 for $1531 and I will agree with you.
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post #11 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 02:31 PM
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Sony KDL55NX720 is awesome after calibration no complaints at all except for the 3D but don't care for it and wanted a great 2D LED.

So here is my story...Went to Fry's (San Diego Mission Valley Store) and noticed that the (major name brand) sale on their flyer was the KDL55NX720. Went with the wife on Valentine's Day and she was blown away by the picture and gave me the go ahead to get it! Yes she is awesome!!! Instead of buying that night, I did what I always do for electronics, research, research, research!!!

The next day I woke up and proceeded to go over to Fry's, (called to confirm and they said they had two in stock at the store) When I got there the sales rep said that they were sold out, but go talk to the Sony rep because they had the KDL55EX720 for the same price. I was bummed because I thought since it was such a great price at $1099 for the NX and refused to pay the same price for the EX. So I walked away from the TV section and went to get my free upgrade for my phone at the phone sales rep. (had to do that too) so in conversation asked her if she could confirm how many units of the NX were in the store and she told me two. Now I'm getting pissed!
I then go back to the TV section and ask for a supervisor and tell him someone else conformed that two were in the store. He says wait a minute and then comes back and confirms that yes there are two but one is defective and the other is the one on the floor, but here is his direct phone # to call if I ever need to verify directly with the TV section about inventory. Then he tells me that the EX is on sale for the same price. So it was a classic bait and switch from the sales team to get people in for the NX and sell them the EX. All in all last time I ever shop at Fry's!!!

Here is where is gets awesome! I drive over to Sears and they have it on sale for $1399. I find the nicest sales rep and tell her I had the worst experience at Fry's and wouldn't ever shop there again. She said she hated them as well and would help me out in any way she could. I told her that Fry's has it for sale at $1099 but didn't have a flyer! I told her she could call Fry's (gave her the supervisors #) to verify and she did. She called and made up a story that she was shopping for the TV and that her husband was just at the store and wanted to know the price and if they had any in stock. He told her that they had one in stock for $1099. She then hung up the phone on them!! LOL

So now for the Sears awesome 110% price match She called her manager over and told him she verified the price at Fry's and he gave the go ahead to override the computer for price match. I told her she was the best and ring it up!!! She then said she would give me the Narnia 3d kit for $40 because they were having a sale on them and a $5 dollar off coupon to boot!

So here is the break down
KDL55NX720 TV $ 1099
Price match guarantee - $29.99
Coupon - $5
Recycle fee + $10
3D kit +39.99
Tax (8.75%) yes its California!!! +97.12 out the door total $1212.11

I wanted to kiss her and told her I'd be back to buy anything from her from now on. She works for commission and has gained a loyal customer!! *&^%YOU Fry's!
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post #12 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by balla01 View Post

Show me where I can buy the UN55D7000 for $1531 and I will agree with you.

It may have been tiger direct that it had it on special. They have bundle sales all the time. If you go to Slickdeals and place an alert for this model, you may be able to find for cheap.

I know Frys had this for $1299 recently.

Here is the link to the TD Sale for $1447.
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post #13 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by godfr33 View Post

Sony KDL55NX720 is awesome after calibration no complaints at all except for the 3D but don't care for it and wanted a great 2D LED.

So here is my story...Went to Fry's (San Diego Mission Valley Store) and noticed that the (major name brand) sale on their flyer was the KDL55NX720. Went with the wife on Valentine's Day and she was blown away by the picture and gave me the go ahead to get it! Yes she is awesome!!! Instead of buying that night, I did what I always do for electronics, research, research, research!!!

The next day I woke up and proceeded to go over to Fry's, (called to confirm and they said they had two in stock at the store) When I got there the sales rep said that they were sold out, but go talk to the Sony rep because they had the KDL55EX720 for the same price. I was bummed because I thought since it was such a great price at $1099 for the NX and refused to pay the same price for the EX. So I walked away from the TV section and went to get my free upgrade for my phone at the phone sales rep. (had to do that too) so in conversation asked her if she could confirm how many units of the NX were in the store and she told me two. Now I'm getting pissed!
I then go back to the TV section and ask for a supervisor and tell him someone else conformed that two were in the store. He says wait a minute and then comes back and confirms that yes there are two but one is defective and the other is the one on the floor, but here is his direct phone # to call if I ever need to verify directly with the TV section about inventory. Then he tells me that the EX is on sale for the same price. So it was a classic bait and switch from the sales team to get people in for the NX and sell them the EX. All in all last time I ever shop at Fry's!!!

Here is where is gets awesome! I drive over to Sears and they have it on sale for $1399. I find the nicest sales rep and tell her I had the worst experience at Fry's and wouldn't ever shop there again. She said she hated them as well and would help me out in any way she could. I told her that Fry's has it for sale at $1099 but didn't have a flyer! I told her she could call Fry's (gave her the supervisors #) to verify and she did. She called and made up a story that she was shopping for the TV and that her husband was just at the store and wanted to know the price and if they had any in stock. He told her that they had one in stock for $1099. She then hung up the phone on them!! LOL

So now for the Sears awesome 110% price match She called her manager over and told him she verified the price at Fry's and he gave the go ahead to override the computer for price match. I told her she was the best and ring it up!!! She then said she would give me the Narnia 3d kit for $40 because they were having a sale on them and a $5 dollar off coupon to boot!

So here is the break down
KDL55NX720 TV $ 1099
Price match guarantee - $29.99
Coupon - $5
Recycle fee + $10
3D kit +39.99
Tax (8.75%) yes its California!!! +97.12 out the door total $1212.11

I wanted to kiss her and told her I'd be back to buy anything from her from now on. She works for commission and has gained a loyal customer!! *&^%YOU Fry's!


Sweet deal man, so you decided to pass on the warranty?? I know they are overpriced and usually worthless, but I always get one with my major electronics purchases. I guess I am just paranoid.
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post #14 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by swolfcg View Post


It may have been tiger direct that it had it on special. They have bundle sales all the time. If you go to Slickdeals and place an alert for this model, you may be able to find for cheap.

I know Frys had this for $1299 recently.

Here is the link to the TD Sale for $1447.

I don't live near a Frys. Do any of these deals offer free shipping??
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post #15 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback fellas. I had seen some people talking about jutter with that Sony NX720, but I believe they were talking about 3D mode. I have no interest in 3D anyway.

Couple other questions. Ive never owned an LED TV. Are they ok for gaming?

Also, say I decide to order something off of amazon, how does warranty work? Im guessing the TV has some sort of maybe 1 year factory warranty, but is it not possible to get an extended warranty on it? Id really like the piece of mind of having a 5 year warranty.
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post #16 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 03:36 PM
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Thanks for the feedback fellas. I had seen some people talking about jutter with that Sony NX720, but I believe they were talking about 3D mode. I have no interest in 3D anyway.

Couple other questions. Ive never owned an LED TV. Are they ok for gaming?

Also, say I decide to order something off of amazon, how does warranty work? Im guessing the TV has some sort of maybe 1 year factory warranty, but is it not possible to get an extended warranty on it? Id really like the piece of mind of having a 5 year warranty.

You can get a warranty through square trade. You can buy the warranty at the same time on Amazon.
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post #17 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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You can get a warranty through square trade. You can buy the warranty at the same time on Amazon.

I have no idea what square trade is. Ive never seen an option for that when buying anything on amazon.
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post #18 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/SquareTrade-4-...694876&sr=8-10

Just add that to my cart? IT covers $1500-$2000. The TV im looking at is $1550
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post #19 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 07:20 PM
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Is this what you're talking about?
http://www.amazon.com/SquareTrade-4-...694876&sr=8-10

Just add that to my cart? IT covers $1500-$2000. The TV im looking at is $1550

Yep, thats it. Not sure how tight you are on your price range but buydig has the UN55D8000 for $1824, comes with two pairs of glasses, two hdmi cables, a wall mount, and free shipping. If you go to Fatwallet you can get 2% cash back which equals $37, so it brings it down to $1787. That is the lowest price I have ever seen for that tv. You can still get the SquareTrade warranty separately for $159 for 3 years. I just bought one today, couldn't pass up on the deal.
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post #20 of 33 Old 02-19-2012, 08:58 PM
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I'd like to preface this by first clarifying that I'm just an AV novice with no agenda other than to get a high quality product at a good price. I was also in the market for a 55" LED LCD TV (decided to take advantage of the price cuts on the '11 inventory and will move my beloved Sony KDL-46XBR4 into the BR so I can get something new for the family room). After spending hours reviewing this site and others, I discovered that for $1,200 (not including tax) I could buy a 60" set with a better picture than sets thast cost $1,000 more. How you might ask? By making the switch to a (gasp) plasma. It's been years since I researched TVs and I was pleasantly surprised to discover that plasma TVs today ain't like the ones your father's rich friends had. They don't have the same burn in issues, are a mere 3" thick, only 12-15 lbs heavier than an equal size LCD, are much more energy efficient and don't need to be babied. Sure they have issues. However, after reading thread after threadon this site I discovered that as others have said (in moments of clarity) that there are no perfect TVs (LCD or plasma) ... at least not in the price range of the 99% (sorry, couldn't resist). So, I'm off to Costco where I'm going to buy the well rated Panasonic TC-P60ST30 for $1,199.99 + tax. Are there reports of green globs and pink hues? Yep, there sure there are. However, there are plenty of folks out there who haven't had any problems at all and with Costco's return policy, extended warranty and an extra 3 year warranty for $100 I think I'll be pretty safe. And with the help of all you knowledgable folks at AVSForum, I'll have nice settings to watch TV during the day as well as at night. Just some food for thought from a happy, AV simpleton (who will have an extra grand in the bank for a rainy day (after all, as previously indicated, I'm not one of the 1%!!!). Please be gentle with me.... :-)
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post #21 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 04:44 AM
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I'd like to preface this by first clarifying that I'm just an AV novice with no agenda other than to get a high quality product at a good price. I was also in the market for a 55" LED LCD TV (decided to take advantage of the price cuts on the '11 inventory and will move my beloved Sony KDL-46XBR4 into the BR so I can get something new for the family room).

After spending hours reviewing this site and others, I discovered that for $1,200 (not including tax) I could buy a 60" set with a better picture than sets thast cost $1,000 more. How you might ask? By making the switch to a (gasp) plasma.

It's been years since I researched TVs and I was pleasantly surprised to discover that plasma TVs today ain't like the ones your father's rich friends had. They don't have the same burn in issues, are a mere 3" thick, only 12-15 lbs heavier than an equal size LCD, are much more energy efficient and don't need to be babied. Sure they have issues. However, after reading thread after threadon this site I discovered that as others have said (in moments of clarity) that there are no perfect TVs (LCD or plasma) ... at least not in the price range of the 99% (sorry, couldn't resist).

So, I'm off to Costco where I'm going to buy the well rated Panasonic TC-P60ST30 for $1,199.99 + tax. Are there reports of green globs and pink hues? Yep, there sure there are. However, there are plenty of folks out there who haven't had any problems at all and with Costco's return policy, extended warranty and an extra 3 year warranty for $100 I think I'll be pretty safe. And with the help of all you knowledgable folks at AVSForum, I'll have nice settings to watch TV during the day as well as at night. Just some food for thought from a happy, AV simpleton (who will have an extra grand in the bank for a rainy day (after all, as previously indicated, I'm not one of the 1%!!!). Please be gentle with me.... :-)

I'm having hard time reading what you wrote. My eye can't really focus on a long block of sentences, without them being broken up, so I went ahead and did that for you. Hey, at least you didn't use all caps.

I don't really understand the point of your post. Do you have actual question or are you just making a statement that Plasma is better? And what exactly is 11 inventory?

Good luck with your new Plasma.
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post #22 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by biggerdaddynj View Post

I'd like to preface this by first clarifying that I'm just an AV novice with no agenda other than to get a high quality product at a good price. I was also in the market for a 55" LED LCD TV (decided to take advantage of the price cuts on the '11 inventory and will move my beloved Sony KDL-46XBR4 into the BR so I can get something new for the family room). After spending hours reviewing this site and others, I discovered that for $1,200 (not including tax) I could buy a 60" set with a better picture than sets thast cost $1,000 more. How you might ask? By making the switch to a (gasp) plasma. It's been years since I researched TVs and I was pleasantly surprised to discover that plasma TVs today ain't like the ones your father's rich friends had. They don't have the same burn in issues, are a mere 3" thick, only 12-15 lbs heavier than an equal size LCD, are much more energy efficient and don't need to be babied. Sure they have issues. However, after reading thread after threadon this site I discovered that as others have said (in moments of clarity) that there are no perfect TVs (LCD or plasma) ... at least not in the price range of the 99% (sorry, couldn't resist). So, I'm off to Costco where I'm going to buy the well rated Panasonic TC-P60ST30 for $1,199.99 + tax. Are there reports of green globs and pink hues? Yep, there sure there are. However, there are plenty of folks out there who haven't had any problems at all and with Costco's return policy, extended warranty and an extra 3 year warranty for $100 I think I'll be pretty safe. And with the help of all you knowledgable folks at AVSForum, I'll have nice settings to watch TV during the day as well as at night. Just some food for thought from a happy, AV simpleton (who will have an extra grand in the bank for a rainy day (after all, as previously indicated, I'm not one of the 1%!!!). Please be gentle with me.... :-)

I bought the PN51d550 because I thought plasma was the way to go. In my opinion, worst decision I've ever made. The glare on the screen was ridiculous, and within two days of owning it I had some IR. Also, the fact you have to "break in" an expensive purchase is mind numbing. I was so paranoid about burn in I couldn't even enjoy the tv. Plasmas contrast cannot touch any LED's on the market. I returned that tv and went LED.
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post #23 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 06:38 AM
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I'm having hard time reading what you wrote. My eye can't really focus on a long block of sentences, without them being broken up, so I went ahead and did that for you. Hey, at least you didn't use all caps.

I don't really understand the point of your post. Do you have actual question or are you just making a statement that Plasma is better? And what exactly is 11 inventory?

Good luck with your new Plasma.

Thanks for breaking up my posting, much appreciated because it was a valid point. I apologize if you don't understand my posting so I'll explain. This thread was started by someone who was looking for a good deal on a 55" TV (LCD) and he asked for advice. I happened to be in the same boat as him and decided to share my experience because I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I never considered plasma because I was afraid of what I'd heard years ago. So I thought perhaps it might have been useful for him, i.e. , a pretty darn good 60" set for $1,200. As for '11 inventory that refers to 2011 inventory (around March the stores start to cut prices because that's when they bring in the new stuff from CES). Hope this clarifies my posting. While I'm sorry that I apparently upset you, if I help one person I'll be happy!
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post #24 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for breaking up my posting, much appreciated because it was a valid point. I apologize if you don't understand my posting so I'll explain. This thread was started by someone who was looking for a good deal on a 55" TV (LCD) and he asked for advice. I happened to be in the same boat as him and decided to share my experience because I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I never considered plasma because I was afraid of what I'd heard years ago. So I thought perhaps it might have been useful for him, i.e. , a pretty darn good 60" set for $1,200. As for '11 inventory that refers to 2011 inventory (around March the stores start to cut prices because that's when they bring in the new stuff from CES). Hope this clarifies my posting. While I'm sorry that I apparently upset you, if I help one person I'll be happy!

I was actually looking more towards an LED, I just wasnt sure if they were good for gaming, which I do a bit of.

I was leaning away from LCD because I have a sharp aquos LCD, and after just 4 years the entire bottom left side of the screen has these massive sagging looking lines.

And I wasnt interested in plasma at all because Ive heard many times that games can cause burn in on the screen. I have no idea if thats true in modern plasma's, but anyway I was looking for an LED. Ive had my sites set on a Sony BRAVIA KDL55NX720 for a couple weeks now, but did see some people here in the official owners thread that theres some sort of artifacting, and saw someone on youtube say there's juttering, although that might just apply to 3D mode, which I won't be using anyway.
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post #25 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 06:57 AM
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I bought the PN51d550 because I thought plasma was the way to go. In my opinion, worst decision I've ever made. The glare on the screen was ridiculous, and within two days of owning it I had some IR. Also, the fact you have to "break in" an expensive purchase is mind numbing. I was so paranoid about burn in I couldn't even enjoy the tv. Plasmas contrast cannot touch any LED's on the market. I returned that tv and went LED.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Balla. I'm also nervous about glare and the other potential issues that's why I'm going Costco with a Square Trade warranty.
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post #26 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for breaking up my posting, much appreciated because it was a valid point. I apologize if you don't understand my posting so I'll explain. This thread was started by someone who was looking for a good deal on a 55" TV (LCD) and he asked for advice. I happened to be in the same boat as him and decided to share my experience because I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I never considered plasma because I was afraid of what I'd heard years ago. So I thought perhaps it might have been useful for him, i.e. , a pretty darn good 60" set for $1,200. As for '11 inventory that refers to 2011 inventory (around March the stores start to cut prices because that's when they bring in the new stuff from CES). Hope this clarifies my posting. While I'm sorry that I apparently upset you, if I help one person I'll be happy!

It's amazing how much cheaper all of these TVs are if you buy from sites like amazon for example. If you check best buy, pc richards, costo, everything is significantly more expensive.
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post #27 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 07:19 AM
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I was actually looking more towards an LED, I just wasnt sure if they were good for gaming, which I do a bit of.

I was leaning away from LCD because I have a sharp aquos LCD, and after just 4 years the entire bottom left side of the screen has these massive sagging looking lines.

And I wasnt interested in plasma at all because Ive heard many times that games can cause burn in on the screen. I have no idea if thats true in modern plasma's, but anyway I was looking for an LED. Ive had my sites set on a Sony BRAVIA KDL55NX720 for a couple weeks now, but did see some people here in the official owners thread that theres some sort of artifacting, and saw someone on youtube say there's juttering, although that might just apply to 3D mode, which I won't be using anyway.

Good luck trenken. My only advice is to buy from a reputable dealer and protect your investment with a warranty for piece of mind if you're worried about any issues. BTW if you're a Costco member you can get the 3 year Square Trade warranty for $100 even if you buy elsewhere. If you also buy with a cc that extends your warranty for a year you'll have 5 years of protection in all. Just need to buy the warranty within a certain period of time.
PS I also wish they'd make a high quality set without 3D!!!
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post #28 of 33 Old 02-20-2012, 07:49 AM
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It's amazing how much cheaper all of these TVs are if you buy from sites like amazon for example. If you check best buy, pc richards, costo, everything is significantly more expensive.

And you avoid sales tax. Look on slickdeals, those people are crazy about finding deals. That's how I got the UN55D8000 for $1787.
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-06-2012, 11:29 AM
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My 46" TV just died over the weekend, and I am also looking for a 55" set.

There is *nothing* really on sale out there right now. Do you think there will be more this coming week for March Madness, or perhaps even later in the month as some people have already stated.

Watching TV on a 26" set right now, but can put up with that for a few weeks to save some moolah.

TIA!
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-06-2012, 04:28 PM
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My 46" TV just died over the weekend, and I am also looking for a 55" set.

There is *nothing* really on sale out there right now. Do you think there will be more this coming week for March Madness, or perhaps even later in the month as some people have already stated.

Watching TV on a 26" set right now, but can put up with that for a few weeks to save some moolah.

TIA!

Uh, all 2011 prices are sinking fast.. If you can find one that you like, I would hunt a 2011 model down, or wait a couple of weeks after the 2012s get shelved.

My advice would be to go look at tvs and narrow your choices down. You should still be able to see the 46" and up 2011 models in the store. They shouldn't be replaced for at least a couple of weeks. The smaller 2012s are up at a lot of big brand stores already.

Be careful with waiting too long, because when they start selling the left over 2011s, they won't be restocked.

Are you looking for 46" exactly or bigger, and what are your requirements, other than size?
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