Panasonic 65 inch VT50 release date and price? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 312 Old 05-14-2012, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DrRx View Post


How about the Sony XBR 65HX929 local dimming LED backlit?

You could give it a shot you could view them in a store to see if blooming is something that really bothers you otherwise I say yes give it a shot.
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post #212 of 312 Old 05-14-2012, 07:55 PM
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=fanboy of a natural great looking picture which has steered me to panny. Previously owned a samsung flagship plasma as well which also helped steer me to panny since it died in just a bit over two years. And the elite well is just overpriced for me.
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post #213 of 312 Old 05-14-2012, 08:12 PM
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=fanboy of a natural great looking picture which has steered me to panny. Previously owned a samsung flagship plasma as well which also helped steer me to panny since it died in just a bit over two years. And the elite well is just overpriced for me.

Fanboy!
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post #214 of 312 Old 05-14-2012, 08:14 PM
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You could give it a shot you could view them in a store to see if blooming is something that really bothers you otherwise I say yes give it a shot.

I don't want to spend $5500... My max budget is 4k. Its beyond me that you can't purchase a 65" LED TV that doesn't have lighting caveats like flashlighting or blooming for under 4 grand. What do you think of the LG 9600? Word is it will be out in a 60" soon which although it would be a downgrade in size shouldn't have any lighting issues as its a full array LED. I'm also considering spending a little more than my max and getting the Sharp 60" Elite, I can't swing the price tag on the 70! Its just so thick though and I think it will look dumb wall mounted. Thoughts?
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post #215 of 312 Old 05-14-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

As for the comparison between the VT50 and the UN60ES8000 I was actually quite shocked by the results. I got my powered HDMi splitter and hooked them up side by side and played a few blu rays. The Samsung looks crisper and has way darker blacks. The stationary panel with no power to it is even darker on the Samsung.

You're saying a Samsung LED has darker blacks than the plasma VT50. Sounds like there is something wrong with your setup; you might want to check it out just to be sure.
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post #216 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 01:12 AM
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You're saying a Samsung LED has darker blacks than the plasma VT50. Sounds like there is something wrong with your setup; you might want to check it out just to be sure.

Local dimming on an LED set can literally create "0.0000" luminance. The problem is that it often "clips" pretty hard to achieve this. In other words, the LEDs go off- in order to show even the slightest bit of darkness detail, they have to turn on quite a bit, so they are often clipped at a somewhat light value of black. It's in these situations where the plasma will destroy any LED. Otherwise, the LED-LCD will always win in the "pure-black" battle.

In last year's VE FP shootout, they demonstrated this very well.

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post #217 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Local dimming on an LED set can literally create "0.0000" luminance. The problem is that it often "clips" pretty hard to achieve this. In other words, the LEDs go off- in order to show even the slightest bit of darkness detail, they have to turn on quite a bit, so they are often clipped at a somewhat light value of black. It's in these situations where the plasma will destroy any LED. Otherwise, the LED-LCD will always win in the "pure-black" battle.

In last year's VE FP shootout, they demonstrated this very well.

In fact, this is why Sharp doesn't turn the LEDs off completely on the Elite. The effect can be odd/bad/jarring. Sharp, instead, goes for a very-low-but-not-off minimum luminance level. The effect is still outstanding contrast.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #218 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by beezar View Post

You're saying a Samsung LED has darker blacks than the plasma VT50. Sounds like there is something wrong with your setup; you might want to check it out just to be sure.

Thats what I thought initially until I went to best buy where they had another 65VT50 on display. The panel looked the same as mine. Even my wife noticed that the VT50 looks almost grey compared to the LED models in the store. With both the Samsung LED and the VT50 powered off, looking at the 2 screens, the Panasonic panel looks quite a bit lighter than the Samsung panel with no power. Even the 64" E8000 plasma at BB was darker. If any of you have the ability to put it side by side with other TV's please check it out and let me know what you think. I really wish it was a defect because now I don't know what to purchase
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post #219 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Local dimming on an LED set can literally create "0.0000" luminance. The problem is that it often "clips" pretty hard to achieve this. In other words, the LEDs go off- in order to show even the slightest bit of darkness detail, they have to turn on quite a bit, so they are often clipped at a somewhat light value of black. It's in these situations where the plasma will destroy any LED. Otherwise, the LED-LCD will always win in the "pure-black" battle.

In last year's VE FP shootout, they demonstrated this very well.

I completely agree! I will gladly trade a slightly lighter black with MUCH better shadow detail for the slightly darker black with lack of shadow detail. The VE shootout video clearly shows the difference! I suggest you check it out.

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post #220 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 10:40 AM
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I completely agree! I will gladly trade a slightly lighter black with MUCH better shadow detail for the slightly darker black with lack of shadow detail. The VE shootout video clearly shows the difference! I suggest you check it out.

If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:
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post #221 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 11:06 AM
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Not a fair comparison, you have a window that the shade is pulled open right next to the VT50.

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post #222 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:

What picture mode was each display in? What gamma setting was used for each? Were they adjusted with a calibration disc or OOB? Is that a window to the left of the Panasonic? Too many questions to be answered before you can use this picture as an accurate comparison.


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post #223 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post


If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:

Something is not set correctly on your Panasonic or you have a bad tv. Definitely check brightness and contrast.
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post #224 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:

Yep! that looks about right!

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post #225 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

what picture mode was each display in? What gamma setting was used for each? Were they adjusted with a calibration disc or oob? Is that a window to the left of the panasonic? Too many questions to be answered before you can use this picture as an accurate comparison.

+1

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post #226 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:

please please please , sort the settings out on the panny , and i can see that the panny has a real bright reflection upon the screen , wheres the samsung has none.
I've seen the gt panny in store and looked nothing near as washed out as that. my god man what brightness do you have it on!
bring on the shootout...
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post #227 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

Its beyond me that you can't purchase a 65" LED TV that doesn't have lighting caveats like flashlighting or blooming for under 4 grand.

And yet you can't. No such thing exists.


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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

Thats what I thought initially until I went to best buy where they had another 65VT50 on display. The panel looked the same as mine. Even my wife noticed that the VT50 looks almost grey compared to the LED models in the store. With both the Samsung LED and the VT50 powered off, looking at the 2 screens, the Panasonic panel looks quite a bit lighter than the Samsung panel with no power. Even the 64" E8000 plasma at BB was darker. If any of you have the ability to put it side by side with other TV's please check it out and let me know what you think. I really wish it was a defect because now I don't know what to purchase

This comparison is entirely invalid on many dimensions.

First of all, you do not watch the TV with the power off so let's not worry about how the TV looks with the power off. It does not many an iota of difference.

Second of all, you do not watch the TV with another TV sitting next to it. So let's disregard any comparisons that are based on "anchoring", which yields false results. I suggests you Google "optical illusions" and see how easily the eye and brain are fooled by incredible simple things. Here's a fantastic place to start:

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/O...rception2.html

When you can tell me you don't think those squares are the same color (they are), you can tell me you are immune to "anchoring". Until then, stop watching two TVs at the same time and judging them -- it's pointless.

The VT50 is being measured at .002 ft/L MLL and 46 ft/L calibrated brightness. While we can quibble about whether or not a Sharp Elite or some TV that hasn't been for sale for years can reach a lower minimum luminance, the notion that someone should want a higher maximum brightness is getting ridiculous. Your TV viewing should not require you to grab sunglasses.

About the only thing I see of interest in the comparison photo is that sun is hitting the Panasonic. It isn't hitting the Samsung because the window is directly behind the Samsung. Now, this should be obvious, but since it isn't: Gigantic bright thing behind TV that is blocked by TV and therefore not incident to TV will make TV seem very contrasty. I state that neither as a positive of the Samsung nor as an indictment of it. It's just a fact.

It's also a fact that LCDs will do better on a sunny day than plasmas typically. But my goodness, that photo shows the plasma being tortured so who really knows. "Let's put it next to a window with midday sun shining through and see how it does!". I wonder where the other windows in that room are. If I were betting, I'd guess there's another one to the right of the Panasonic, maybe on a side wall?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #228 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mancstheking View Post


please please please , sort the settings out on the panny , and i can see that the panny has a real bright reflection upon the screen , wheres the samsung has none.
I've seen the gt panny in store and looked nothing near as washed out as that. my god man what brightness do you have it on!
bring on the shootout...

Noticed that as well seems like a crazy amount of light. Shut the lights out and take a pic.
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post #229 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

If it was a slight difference I would agree also. Here is scene from Alice in Wonderland on the ES800 and the VT50:

He's already said he used Vivid for the Panny. Without them both being calibrated correctly and to the same levels (light output/gamma) this is about as useless as it comes for comparison. That's without even saying anythign about the major amount of light washing out the image on the Panasonic from the window right next to it.

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post #230 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post


He's already said he used Vivid for the Panny. Without them both being calibrated correctly and to the same levels (light output/gamma) this is about as useless as it comes for comparison. That's without even saying anythign about the major amount of light washing out the image on the Panasonic from the window right next to it.

Exactly. Without AT LEAST calibrating brightness and contrast, this comparison is absolutely meaningless.

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post #231 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 12:56 PM
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Ok. For giggles and grins take a night shot of the panny, alone. I'm sure you can find some ' temp' settings for the panny, there's plenty here that some described as simply stunning.

Seems as though if that's your viewing room and you're doing a lot of daytime watching the LCD might be more your thing.
That's why I think it's dumb to make a blanket statement they tv x is BETTER than tv y. More variables to the equation than just the tv!
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post #232 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

He's already said he used Vivid for the Panny. Without them both being calibrated correctly and to the same levels (light output/gamma) this is about as useless as it comes for comparison. That's without even saying anythign about the major amount of light washing out the image on the Panasonic from the window right next to it.

Agreed.
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post #233 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 02:40 PM
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Someone at a smaller A/V dealer in town says that end of June is what he is seeing at his store. I have mostly heard middle to end of May other places. Hopefully not end of June though for Canada.
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post #234 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

I don't want to spend $5500... My max budget is 4k. Its beyond me that you can't purchase a 65" LED TV that doesn't have lighting caveats like flashlighting or blooming for under 4 grand. What do you think of the LG 9600? Word is it will be out in a 60" soon which although it would be a downgrade in size shouldn't have any lighting issues as its a full array LED. I'm also considering spending a little more than my max and getting the Sharp 60" Elite, I can't swing the price tag on the 70! Its just so thick though and I think it will look dumb wall mounted. Thoughts?

How about building a small mantle and mount the TV over the mantle?
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post #235 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 03:54 PM
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Has anyone ever ordered from provantage?They have the TC-P65VT50.The price they have there ie 3699.99 and its slashed,if you add it to your cart its like 2634.29 but its backordered
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post #236 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 04:07 PM
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Yes I know.I have ordered a hard drive from them years back and I do receive there sales flyer in the mail.I was going to order a sony camcorder from them, sony and other stores listed it for 1499.99 and they had it for 1299.99.It took me afew weeks to get the courage to place an order.Then I was just about to order one and they don't have it listed anymore ,so I emailed them and they said they don't know if they going to get them in or not.
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post #237 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 04:12 PM
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I call shenanigans, either the unit is defective or the settings are really skewed.

Post a pick with each displays settings on screen. Even though each TVs settings cannot be directed correlated as being equal it will at least provide some illumination on the disparity.

Judging from that one pic it appears that both VT50's brightness and contrasts are set too high. natetheskate, you didn't by chance try to use the exact same settings between the two, did you?

All other reports and the scant few other pics available casts your situation as rather unique and not representative of what others will encounter with their sets.

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post #238 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

And yet you can't. No such thing exists.




This comparison is entirely invalid on many dimensions.

First of all, you do not watch the TV with the power off so let's not worry about how the TV looks with the power off. It does not many an iota of difference.

Second of all, you do not watch the TV with another TV sitting next to it. So let's disregard any comparisons that are based on "anchoring", which yields false results. I suggests you Google "optical illusions" and see how easily the eye and brain are fooled by incredible simple things. Here's a fantastic place to start:

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/O...rception2.html

When you can tell me you don't think those squares are the same color (they are), you can tell me you are immune to "anchoring". Until then, stop watching two TVs at the same time and judging them -- it's pointless.

The VT50 is being measured at .002 ft/L MLL and 46 ft/L calibrated brightness. While we can quibble about whether or not a Sharp Elite or some TV that hasn't been for sale for years can reach a lower minimum luminance, the notion that someone should want a higher maximum brightness is getting ridiculous. Your TV viewing should not require you to grab sunglasses.

About the only thing I see of interest in the comparison photo is that sun is hitting the Panasonic. It isn't hitting the Samsung because the window is directly behind the Samsung. Now, this should be obvious, but since it isn't: Gigantic bright thing behind TV that is blocked by TV and therefore not incident to TV will make TV seem very contrasty. I state that neither as a positive of the Samsung nor as an indictment of it. It's just a fact.

It's also a fact that LCDs will do better on a sunny day than plasmas typically. But my goodness, that photo shows the plasma being tortured so who really knows. "Let's put it next to a window with midday sun shining through and see how it does!". I wonder where the other windows in that room are. If I were betting, I'd guess there's another one to the right of the Panasonic, maybe on a side wall?

obviously you're very knowledgable and calibrating is something you do for either a living or a serious hobby. That being said its also obvious that I'm not as knowledgable and don't have calibration equipment. The Panasonic is on Vivid with stock values and the Samsung in on Dynamic with stock values. Yes there is a lot of light in that picture as it was taken in the day, I realize LCD's are always going to handle light better, I was simply comparing the darkest dark on both and how different they are. While I will never be watching TV with another TV next to my main I still want the darkest blacks possible and with the Panasonic I don't get them (this was clear as soon as I got the set). Without calibrating I tried every mode and all of them look washed out to me. Out of the box it was so dim I thought something was wrong with it immediately on its stock settings.

I originally thought maybe its defective but after going to best buy and looking at the VT50 they have on display next to competitors I felt the same way.

If you'd like I'm more than happy to take some night shots where you will still see the vast difference in the darks. If you feel its the settings on the Panasonic please point me to some settings you trust and I will apply them and take a few more pictures. At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and I'm disappointed with the VT50 therefore its going back...
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post #239 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by natetheskate View Post

obviously you're very knowledgable and calibrating is something you do for either a living or a serious hobby. That being said its also obvious that I'm not as knowledgable and don't have calibration equipment. The Panasonic is on Vivid with stock values and the Samsung in on Dynamic with stock values. Yes there is a lot of light in that picture as it was taken in the day, I realize LCD's are always going to handle light better, I was simply comparing the darkest dark on both and how different they are. While I will never be watching TV with another TV next to my main I still want the darkest blacks possible and with the Panasonic I don't get them (this was clear as soon as I got the set). Without calibrating I tried every mode and all of them look washed out to me. Out of the box it was so dim I thought something was wrong with it immediately on its stock settings.

I originally thought maybe its defective but after going to best buy and looking at the VT50 they have on display next to competitors I felt the same way.

If you'd like I'm more than happy to take some night shots where you will still see the vast difference in the darks. If you feel its the settings on the Panasonic please point me to some settings you trust and I will apply them and take a few more pictures. At the end of the day it comes down to personal preference and I'm disappointed with the VT50 therefore its going back...

Nate,

At the very least, calibrate the VT50 for brightness and contrast before you send it back. You do not need any equipment to do this. You can simply burn the AVS HD 709 patterns disc onto a DVD-R and put it in your blu-ray player. There are two animated patterns that have directions on them for how to adjust brightness and contrast. They are very intuitive and do not require any real education on calibration to adjust.

Please, try this before returning a perfectly good flagship television. Simply switching the user modes isn't going to cut it. Yes, it's true- many users on these forums and reviews have confirmed that the out-of-the-box experience on a lot of these Panny 2012 sets is not all that great. That's a screw-up on Panasonic's part, IMO, especially when Samsung seems to have their out-of-the-box experience down to a science. That said, all reports I've read have pointed to the VT50 as the best 2012 plasma on the market, after you get a basic calibration done. Again, you don't need any equipment (and can't even benefit from using any) to do basic contrast, brightness, color, and tint.

Calibration Equipment:

Meters: X-rite i1 Pro 2, X-rite i1 Display Pro

Software: Spectracal Calman DIY, ControlCAL

 

Televisions:

Panasonic TC-P65VT50 (currently own)
Samsung UN55D8000 (returned)
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Tempest261 is offline  
post #240 of 312 Old 05-15-2012, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Nate,

At the very least, calibrate the VT50 for brightness and contrast before you send it back. You do not need any equipment to do this. You can simply burn the AVS HD 709 patterns disc onto a DVD-R and put it in your blu-ray player. There are two animated patterns that have directions on them for how to adjust brightness and contrast. They are very intuitive and do not require any real education on calibration to adjust.

Please, try this before returning a perfectly good flagship television. Simply switching the user modes isn't going to cut it. Yes, it's true- many users on these forums and reviews have confirmed that the out-of-the-box experience on a lot of these Panny 2012 sets is not all that great. That's a screw-up on Panasonic's part, IMO, especially when Samsung seems to have their out-of-the-box experience down to a science. That said, all reports I've read have pointed to the VT50 as the best 2012 plasma on the market, after you get a basic calibration done. Again, you don't need any equipment (and can't even benefit from using any) to do basic contrast, brightness, color, and tint.

Thanks for the info on the calibration videos. I downloaded them and added them to my xbmc box. After the basic setup and turning the brightness down the blacks do look much better. The color still doesn't pop like the Samsung but it does look much much better and in some cases better then the samsung now. I ran the basic setup on both TV's and I think the main difference (and I don't know how to correct it or if its correctable) are the whites. when I run the white clipping video the samsung looks true white and the panasonic almost looks off white/light grey and doesn't put out near as much light. What setting on the VT50 will make the whites brighter? or is this just a limitation of plasma as compared to LED LCD? Also when I do the color video the colors don't look as bright on the VT50 which I'm fairly sure is related to the whites.

Im really much more impressed with the VT50 after doing the basic setup you suggested! Thanks for giving advice instead of just flaming me with statistics for explaining my observations. Appreciate the help!
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