Which Da-Lite screen is best for Sony VPL-VW11HT? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 10:00 PM
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Hi Scottbonney,

Quote:
I would respectfullly disagree with Gregg on his recommendations for the maximum size screen with the VPL-VW10HT or 11HT.
Actually you're only respectfully disagreeing with people who I've talked with at HT shops, and not me personally. I subscribe to the "bigger!, better!, faster!, more!" philosophy of life. :)

Against all of the advice I was given, I was originally targeting doing a 120" screen myself. But once the final dimensions of my room started to solidify, I had to drop down to a 110". I agree to an extent with what you said about small screens. If 100" is the biggest you can fit in the room, then I don't think that it looks that small. On the other hand, I always chuckle at these grand home theaters you see that are many seats wide and several rows back all looking at this tiny 106" screen.

I am however very interested in some more feedback on your GrayHawk at 123". I sent you a PM a week ago asking you about it, but you must not have PM notification turned on because it hasn't been read.

My theater room construction wont be complete until March so I am holding off on ordering my screen until that point. I was waiting to hear more about the FireHawk, but I don't think that it will work in my situation. I am not doing the traditional rows of seating but more of a U shaped pit. Once construction is done I'll know my final angles, but I think the guest with the worst seat in the house is going to be almost 60 degrees off center. That brings my decision back to either the GrayHawk or the StudioTek 130. (The PM I sent you was about viewing angles and the GrayHawk.)

Anyway, back to your 123" GrayHawk. Based on my calculations, without the CC filter your screen should have a brightness of 13 foot-lamberts (f-l) with Cinema Black (CB) on and 16 f-l with CB off. 13 is about the brightness found in an average movie theater and 16 is an acceptable brightness level for home theater according to SMPTE.

But, when you add the CC filter, I calculate that your brightness drops to 11/13 f-l for CBon/CBoff. According to SMPTE, 10 f-l is rock bottom level of passable brightness.

Do you feel that your screen is bright enough? I wonder if your all flat black interior scheme skews perception making the screen in fact seem brighter. Based on the brightness levels I expect that you are getting, it would be fine for movies, but is it bright enough for TV too? Do you feel that your screen would still have the same punch and level of brightness is your walls were say, tan? What happens to the picture if someone turns a light on (not overheads, but say a table lamp)?

As of this moment, I am leaning toward the StudioTek. Based on my calculations, I figured that I would get 13/17 f-l CBon/CBoff with a CC filter using the 110" GrayHawk. But my wife has said that I cannot do a "black hole" interior scheme. So my walls will probably be...tan? Though I have total light control, I feared that the level of brightness I would achieve with the GrayHawk may not be bright enough. If I go with the StudioTek and a CC filter, I expect to see brightness levels at 20/25 fl CBon/CBoff. That would put me at a nice midpoint, almost twice as bright as a movie theater but half as bright as a television.

And finally, running the projector at 123" do you notice the screen door? Do you feel that the GrayHawk does anything to minimize the visibility of the screen door?

Thanks in advance for any additional comments you can offer about your setup.

-- Gregg
 

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post #32 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 04:14 AM
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Hi Gregg...

My only other screen reference point at home was a temporary bedroom setup during theatre construction. A 84" wide Dalite glass beaded Model B screen from my slide projection days, in an all white bedroom. I'd geuss a gain of at least 1.8 or so. It was indeed brighter than the GH but washed out terribly from reflected light off the walls and ceiling. we viewed it from the bed about 17' away...much too small for my taste.

With the new theatre we can easliy tolerate a fire in the frireplace on the side wall. A framing projector on some art above the fireplace can only be at about 20% before I complain to the wife. She sometimes tries to read from a small incandesent task light over a side table...but really can't get the brightness up enough to read before we notice a loss of shadow detail. We installed black velvet drapes on the side wall opposite the fireplace to close off the all white kitchen during times when sun illuminates the room. This is rarely used, but does add a nice soft black light and sound absorbing surface to the room. These can be collapsed down to a small area or expanded to fill the entire 18' long side wall.

DVD's and regular cable both seem equally bright to me (on average). HDTV on PBS is usually brighter than prime time shows on CBS or ABC movies. The component 480P Toshiba 5109 and Samsung SIRT150 are set at a brightness of 50, with the composite video cable signal and S Video TiVo at 30. We don't watch a lot of cable due to the poor local signal quailty. After SMART II and the CC filter we had to lower the contrast from 95 to 77 to avoid "blowing-out" the detail in the highlights. The percieved contrast after SMART II and the CC was dramatic, and I thought the picture looked great before. Perhaps 100 people have seen the theatre, with zero commnets on brightness or screendoor. Perhaps the Cinema Noir effect helps percieved brightness more than I realize. Brigh sun sneeking thru the black horiziontal blinds also make the picture less watchable....perhaps true "blackout" curtains would help, but we watch promarily in the evening.

We have a small 20" Toshiba TV in the room for casual veiwing and find that it is indeed much brighter than the projector if used at the same time. We usulally use the TV during daylight hours, but at night the brightness and contrast in the blacked out theatre can almost be painful...way too much eye stain from iris activity. Its nice to preview HDTV programs before firing up the PJ only to find a PBS loop.

Lastly I do not percieve the screen door effect from any sources from our seating position at 14'-6". We really only have two great positions on the two person Leolus black leather recliner, with adjustible armrests, seatback and motorized footrest. It sort of morphs from a modern couch to a giant black baseball glove...very comfotable, especially with the high backrest. For more than two we move some lightweight Bertoia chairs flanking the sofa. As a test I've veiwed a few movies from closer than about 12', but find the overly wide image causes too much head movement and move back, well before I notice the screendoor. HDTV of course allows closer veiwing wth the added detail, but I believe the screen width is the governing factor for me, and I would assume the same for anyone with similar vision...corrected to about 20/25 with glasses (I fine focus the PJ with a binocular). The seats all are very close to the centerline of he screen. If the drapes are open, the veiw from the kitchen at even 45 to 60 degrees from the centerline is still very bright...but quite distorted by perspective.

I hope this info is useful. Good luck with the Mrs., we really like the "womblike" nature of the darker theatre, compared to the otherwise all white house. Hey... its only paint ;). IAs ann architect I've designed some very nice dark interior spaces in houses. They can be quite warm and comfortable. Dark ceilings are a tough sell though, unless a dedicated theatre is planned.

Scott
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post #33 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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So, you are saying that if I mount a 100 inch screen 24 inches off the ground, I can place the projector 6 feet from the ground and not upside-down on the shelf?
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post #34 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 06:35 AM
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Hi Kain,

No, if you mount the projector up high (6 ft) it WILL have to be upside down.

You may want to take a look at the peerless mount with the wall bracked option scott mentions.

-- Gregg
 

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post #35 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, I think I like the idea of the shelf on the back wall so I'll stick to this rather than mounting the projector. So, if a 100 inch screen is 24 inchs off the ground, the projector should be placed so that its lens is pointed at the center of the screen or slightly below the center? Then I won't have to turn it upside-down, right?
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post #36 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Then I won't have to turn it upside-down, right?
If you mount it 6 feet high and don't turn it upside down, you will get keystoning and will have to correct it with the keystone settings.

It sounds like your installation is pretty flexible (your not trying to run cables in wall/ceiling during construction) so I'd recommend just waiting till you get your projector and trying several ways to see what will work best. The projector is light (about 16 lbs), so you could [carefully] hold it over your head and see how bad the keystoning would be if it was shelved right side up vs upside down.

I know that it may seem intimidating, but its really not. Once you get your projector and start to feel comfortable with it, you'll see that it really is pretty flexible and you'll be able to find a solution. I was reading about one person here on the forum who lives in an apartment and has a 10HT. Because of the close quarters, he cant really crank the stereo. So on the weekends he tucks his projector under his arm and takes it over to a friend's house. They set it up on the coffee table and watch movies on a white wall with the stereo a blasting. The 10/11HT is about as plug and play as it gets.

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post #37 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by greggz
I know that it may seem intimidating, but its really not. Once you get your projector and start to feel comfortable with it, you'll see that it really is pretty flexible and you'll be able to find a solution
I can second that. I'm an "absolute begginer" when it comes to PJs. I had no intention of using a ceiling mount, but ended up doing so anyways. Install wasn't nearly as bad as I would have imagined. Just think things out first.

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post #38 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I would ceiling mount it, but it is just that my ceiling is really high. I mean if I mounted it to the ceiling, the projector would be about 5-6 feet ABOVE the whole screen!
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post #39 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 11:52 AM
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Kain,

I have relatively high ceilings also. But I suppose that depends on what we mean by "high." I think mine are like 9 - 10 feet. The mount I use brings the PJ about three feet to where I need it for my screen.

Then again using a shelf isn't bad either if it works out for your setup. Certainly would be easy.

Best,

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post #40 of 51 Old 01-24-2002, 06:32 PM
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As I considered the rear wall shelf option, I also entertained the idea of placing the projector upside down on a rather tall computer equipment case. At 6'-4" tall, the silver painted cabinet on industrial casters (which contains ten a/v compomnents) seemed high enough to align the projector. Openings in the top of the case would allow access to the controls on the upside down projector. With a smaller screen this would have worked, but my 60" high x 106" wide screen (123" diag) needed to be about 28" above the floor to clear my B&O Red Line 140 main speakers whiich had to fit below the screen due to the narrowness of the room. This places the centerline of the projector lense about 7'-2" above the floor, to avoid keystoning. The wal bracket solved the problem very easily, and I love the degree of fine tuning made possible.

In my opinion, the best place to view this projector aways works out to almost directly under the darn thing. During theatre construction, we wheeled the projector all over the house, to project on various white wallls...a great way to get to know what screen size with which you may be comfortable. A reciever. DVD player and two small bookshelf speakers on the lower shelf gave us a pretty slick portable setup.

Gregg...after further thought based on your earlier questions, I would agree that a 1.3 to 1.5 gain screen would be desireable if the room walls/ceiling can't be darkened. With a wide array of viewing angles, a retro-reflective screen will probally not be a good idea. Hey I've got dibs on the centerline seat !

One rather wacky idea that I have proposed for a recent client was to create a temporary coocoon of darkness within an otherwise brightly painted room. We created a dark purple velvet chamber (around a large "U" shaped purple velvet seating group) for veiwing movies by hanging velvet drapes from a curving ceiling mounted hospital cubicle track system. Only a portion of a much larger brightly daylighted living room was used to create the "womb". When fully compacted. the drapes flank, and pass behind the main speakers, next to the wall mounted screen. When closed, they create a perfect cylinder of velvet. The surrounds and rear were ceiling mounted. Even in bright sun the drapes allow isolation of a zone for video. Sound is very cool as well, the drapey circle highly dampened the reflections. The owner describes his chamber as inspired by the Wizard of Oz..."Ignore the man behing the curtain."

Scott
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post #41 of 51 Old 01-25-2002, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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One more question. :)

When do you flip the projector upside-down? Is it when the projector is higher than the center of the screen?
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post #42 of 51 Old 01-25-2002, 12:40 PM
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I have a 10HT... What I did was create a simple shelf on my back wall. Then mount the projector upsidedown to the bottom of the self. It worked great, the only annoying thing is having to take it down for filter cleaning.

Kain,

If the projector is right-side-up the projector should be level with the bottom of the screen. When you flip it over and it is up-side-down it should then be level with the top of the screen.

-apnar
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post #43 of 51 Old 01-28-2002, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.

But can a ceiling mount be mounted to the back wall while keeping the projector facing forward?
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post #44 of 51 Old 01-29-2002, 04:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Bump.
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post #45 of 51 Old 01-31-2002, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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*cough*
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post #46 of 51 Old 01-31-2002, 07:20 AM
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post #47 of 51 Old 01-31-2002, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! :)

I really appreciate all your help in this thread. :)

And everyone else who has helped me. :)
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post #48 of 51 Old 01-31-2002, 01:07 PM
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Thanks Gregg...that is the exact wall mount combo that I used. Of course this gives a fixed distance to the screen, limited by the zoom ratio. But if the distances work, it's a slick and sturdy solution for a complicated problem. The wall mount is actually above a large sliding door wall, with black-out blinds....this alone ruled out a vertical shelf concept, unless it was only near the ceiling.

This is in fact exactly why the 123" diagonal screen worked for me in my 17'-4" long room. The image could have been as small as about 119" or as large as about 140". I believe the brightness of the projector image is highest when the focal point of the lens is as wide as possible, so a closer position to the screen would have been better. I still have plenty of zoom range to adjust the image size.

The ceiling of this room is a side-sloping cathedral ceiling at about 9'-0" high at the center line of the room. I looked into pivoting sloped ceiling mounts, with a drop pipe, and concealed in-ceiling cable runs, but found the wall mount to be the simplest. It also places the exposed video and power wires near the rear wall, exiting the up-side down projector to the right rear, in a gentle drape to the freestanding a/v tower near the rear wall, in the right rear corner. I will wrap the draped wire bundle with some form of coiling spiral cable cover...perhaps a funky yellow rubber air or hydraulic tube...for than "umbilical cord" look.
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post #49 of 51 Old 01-31-2002, 07:35 PM
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from knowing how huge a 922 inch screen with an old CRT projector is, the idea of having a 110 or 123 inch screen just awes me.
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post #50 of 51 Old 02-01-2002, 12:25 PM
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Back to Da-Lite screens, there is the 1.1 gain from Da-Lite mentioned at the beginning of this thread. They also have a 0.80 gain darker grey material that might (though may be too dark) for your Sony. I received both samples yesterday and discovered that the 0.80 gain was just too dark for my G11 D-ILA, but YMMV.
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post #51 of 51 Old 02-02-2002, 08:23 AM
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An interesting effect of my larger screen is the fact that it is nearly wall to wall, within 8" to 12". The main and center speakers are all below the screen and slightly angled upward.

Several visitors have noted the similarity to one of my favorite movies...Fahrenheit 351 or 451 (sp?). Remember Montage's wife was very concerned that her friends screen was the new "full wall" model, and that her screen was just too small by comparison.

Hey I just realized I haven't read a book since the new theater...real life imitates Hollywood.

Also reminds me of the old saying "Reality is for those who can't handle drugs"...Isn't HDTV on a big screen even better that real life experiences ? I need to get out more.
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