Which Da-Lite screen is best for Sony VPL-VW11HT? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 51 Old 01-14-2002, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
In a light controlled room.

Well? :)
Kain is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 51 Old 01-14-2002, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
*cough* :D

:p
Kain is offline  
post #3 of 51 Old 01-15-2002, 03:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
If your screen size is not too large (say 100" diagonal) you should check out the High Contrast (0.8 gain). If your screen size is larger, you may want to wait a bit. I understand that Da-Lite is about to release a 1.1 gain grey screen.
Scott B is offline  
post #4 of 51 Old 01-15-2002, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
I want one that is between 80-90 inches, about.
Kain is offline  
post #5 of 51 Old 01-15-2002, 04:48 AM
Member
 
Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Warsaw, IN USA
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Kain,

Scott is right. Da-Lite just introduced a new fabric at CES 2002 that is called High Contrast Cinema Vision. The gain of this fabric is 1.1 an it has a 45 degree half angle. This fabric was designed specifically for DLP and LCD projectors with moderate output (800-1500 ansi lumens). The Sony 11HT fits into that category just perfect. The difference between the HC Cinema Vision and the HC Da-Mat is the fact that there is an added reflective coating that helps boost the whites while still adding to the blacks with the grey base of the material. We have samples available if you wish to receive one. Also, we are producing screens with this material as we speak.

Thanks,

Blake

Blake Brubaker, CTS
Vice President of Sales
Da-Lite Screen Company, Inc.
Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite is offline  
post #6 of 51 Old 01-15-2002, 05:07 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Thank you for your reply. But the thing is that I live in Dubai, UAE. Will I be able to purchase this screen here in Dubai?

Secondly, since I am new to projectors and screens, I don't know what "1.1 gain" or "0.8 gain" mean. Could you please explain what this "gain" is?

Thank you.
Kain is offline  
post #7 of 51 Old 01-15-2002, 03:28 PM
Senior Member
 
WScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Naperville, IL USA
Posts: 345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I am going to go with the non technical version of the gain explanation.

Gain means does the screen increase the reflected light or not.

A gain of 1.0 means all of the light is reflected back into the viewing room. A gain of .8 means that 80% of the light is reflected back into the viewing room. A gain of 1.1 means that 110% (10% more) is reflected back.

The trade off of increased gain is that the viewing angle is decreased. In other words the distance off center a person can sit with a good (bright) view of the screen. In practice the screen manufactures usually makes this a minimal issue.

Also the newest feature with screens is that they are formulated of the flavor of projector. (DLP, LCD etc.) That is something that I am not an expert in but may be a good choice for your LCD based Sony.

- Scott
WScott is offline  
post #8 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 12:43 AM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Actually that is an incorrect explanation of gain.

For screens, the gain value is how much MORE or LESS reflective a screen is than a matte white reference surface. A matte white surface has a gain of 1.0. This means nothing more than "we pick here as the starting point for measuring." It DOES NOT mean that the matte white screen reflects 100% of the light back (that would be called a mirror).

A matte white surface tends to scatter the light hitting it in all directions. The plus side of a matte white screen is that is has an almost 180 degree viewing angle; both up and down and left and right. The minus is that all that scattered light tends to light up the walls and ceiling causing the picture to appear more washed out. A real contrast killer.

A Stewart StudioTek 130, for example, has a gain of 1.3. This means that 30% more of the light is reflected back toward the viewer THAN would be by a matte white surface. In essence, the screen is starting to focus the reflection back more toward the source. It DOES NOT mean that the screen creates 30% more light than you put in (that would be akin to creating a perpetual motion machine ;) ).

The plus to a higher gain screen is that the light is being used more efficiently/effectively by being reflected back to where it needs to be, the viewer. This does a couple things. In higher ambient light situations, a picture that would be all but washed out on a matte screen is now viewable. It also gives your picture more oompf on a low lumen projector. Or it enables you go with a slightly bigger screen and still maintain an acceptable level of foot-lamberts (a measure of how bright a picture you are seeing).

But a higher gain has a down side too. The higher the gain, the more the light is being focused back toward the source (the projector). As the viewer moves off center from the projector the picture dims.

Also, you can pick too high a gain screen for a particular projector/screen size. Just as your ears will rebel and your speakers distort if you crank the volume too high, so too will your eyes if you pump too much light to a high gain screen. You will either see blobs of color on the screen, called hot spots, or you will stress/fatigue your eyes.

Kain, for your particular setup (11Ht or 9000) and an 80 inch screen, you need gain like a hole in the head. You'd be best served with the previously mentioned Da-lite Hi-Contrast Da-Mat (and not the Hi Contrast Cinema Vision). I hesitate to recommend the Stewart GrayHawk either for that small a screen on that bright of a projector. The GrayHawk has a high gain coating applied over a dull gray material resulting in a sum gain of .95. I'm afraid that you might see hot spotting on the GrayHawk. Perhaps someone with actual experience with a 800/1000 lumen projector on an 80" diagonal screen could confirm or deny this.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #9 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Thanks for the reply greggz! :)

I am not sure if I want a 80 inch screen right now, I might get a bigger one such as a 100 inch 16:9 one. It is just that I sit only about 11-12 feet from where the screen will be and so want to get the correct size. Do you think a 100 inch screen will be too big for a 11-12 feet sitting distance?
Kain is offline  
post #10 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Secondly, how are the Da-Lite fiberglass screens?
Kain is offline  
post #11 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 05:34 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Scott B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
A 100 inch diagonal screen (87" wide) would be my choice for a sitting distance of 11-12 feet. You will probably regret going with a smaller screen.
Scott B is offline  
post #12 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 05:56 AM
Senior Member
 
mbrennem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
We have a 10HT and we sit about 12' from the screen and I think our screen size (a little less than 100" diagonal) is perfect. You cannot see the screen door effect with this setup unless you have incredibly good vision and you sharply focus the projector. Even then it is more likely that you are seeing picture artifacts rather than actual screen-door (and artifacts aren't regular occurances either!).

You will definitely regret an 80" diagonal screen in the long run since you can go 20" bigger without compromising.

The loophole: if you have a lot of ambient light in the room, a smaller screen will help increase the brightness and might be the right choice for you. I don't know about your situation.

Check out my website (see sig link) to see our home-made screen. It works really well and was really inexpensive to make.

Mike
mbrennem is offline  
post #13 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
It will be in a light-controlled room.
Kain is offline  
post #14 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 08:10 AM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
100", now we're talking!

Here's your new word for the day; immersion. Immersion is the feeling/perception that you are in the action and not just watching from a distance.

The screen needs to fill 30 degrees of your horizontal field of vision and 15 degrees of your vertical field of vision for you to feel immersed in what you are watching.

Without going into the formulas to calculate immersion, I can tell you that at 12 feet back you will be 1.7 times the screen width back from the screen and the picture will fill 34 degrees of your horizontal field of view and 19 degrees of your vertical field of view. Those are good numbers.

If 100" is too big, you could also consider a 92" screen and still have immersion values within the 30/15 degree target.

Check out this article. It should be able to answer every question you have about screen selection.

http://www.hometheatervillage.com/gu..._Guide-150.pdf

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #15 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 10:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
traveler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
greggz,
Thanks for the article! It is exactly what I have been looking for wrt screen issues.

This forum is great!!

traveler

Traveler

Our HT Page
traveler is offline  
post #16 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 12:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Happy to help. They have some other GREAT articles but in order to read them you have to register for their forum (its free).

http://www.hometheatervillage.com

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #17 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 04:39 PM
Member
 
Secant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by greggz
100", now we're talking!

Greggz,

Do you think the 11HT would be capable of projecting 120", without major issues? In the $6,500 price range, any suggestions?

For more screen size to immersion ratio information, check out the dolby screen size article shown below:

http://www.dolby.com/movies/m.in.0009.screensize.html

Thxs,

Secant
Secant is offline  
post #18 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 06:25 PM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi Secant,

From talking to a lot of pro's during my research, most tend to recommend no larger than a 106" to 110" (diagonal) for the 10/11HT if your goal is a bright vibrant picture. Another concern is that the larger you blow up the picture, the greater the chance of being able to see the "screen door".

But, conditionally, sure, the 11HT can do 120". You may want to PM Gus. I think he's driving a 133" screen with the 11HT. Get his opinion on the pluses and minuses of a big screen and what screen material he used.

Once you get over 106" you really need to use your light as efficiently as possible. The difference between a 106" and a 123" is an additional 10 square feet (or 33% more surface area). You'll need to have complete control of the ambient light in your theater room.

For this size screen you will definitely want a screen with gain. You may want to consider either the StudioTek 130, the Ultramatte 150, and maybe the new FireHawk (or Da-Lite equivalents). One caveat about the FireHawk, it does have a more restrictive viewing angle than the other two.

All 3 of these screens will get you a foot-lambert level above 16 f-l with cinema black on and above 20 f-l with cinema black off (assuming 614 real-world lumens with cinema black on and 767 real-world lumens with cinema black off). Your goal should be to try and stay above 16 f-l. Your setup will be at least as bright as the movie theater but much less bright than a regular television. Fine for watching movies but maybe not so good for sports.

You may also want to consider a screen with a gain above 2.0, but in those cases, I'd call the mfg and get some pre-sale technical support. Instinctively I would say, for example, the Da-Lite 2.8 gain high power screen has too much gain for the 10/11HT, but I've seen postings where people are using it and say it works great. Personally, I would have thought it would be a mess of hot spots. Go figure.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #19 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 10:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Thanks, but there is one more question. How far does the VPL-VW11HT need to be from the screen to project a 100 inch picture?
Kain is offline  
post #20 of 51 Old 01-22-2002, 11:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The 11HT must be mounted so that the face of the lens is greater than 129 inches (10.75 ft) and less than 149 inches (12.42 feet) away from a 100 inch screen.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #21 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 02:05 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally posted by greggz
The 11HT must be mounted so that the face of the lens is greater than 129 inches (10.75 ft) and less than 149 inches (12.42 feet) away from a 100 inch screen.
Uh oh. I can only place the 11HT 13.5 feet from the screen. Secondly, my roof is too high to place it on the ceiling, so I'll have to place it on the back wall somehow.
Kain is offline  
post #22 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 07:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Really? I would think that it works out perfect for a 100" screen.

I assume that you would want mount the projector on a shelf on the back wall. You say that your room is 13.5 feet deep (162 inches). The projector is 17 inches deep, so assuming that you had it butted right up against the back wall that would put the lens face (162 - 17) 145 inches from the front wall. That is within the 129 to 149 inch range.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #23 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
But I don't have a shelf on the back wall. Will it be possible to use the ceiling mount on the back wall?
Kain is offline  
post #24 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 08:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
But I don't have a shelf on the back wall
Two L brackets + 4 screws + one piece of plywood = a shelf.

The alternative is, of course, not to mount the projector but to put it on a small table between the seats (unless you are doing a sofa).

All a ceiling mount on the wall would do is aim the projector straight at the ceiling.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #25 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Kain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 1,786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Oh, you meant that kind of a shelf. :)

Yeah, I could do that. How high should the shelf be according to the screen?
Kain is offline  
post #26 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 10:55 AM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ideally, the shelf should be positioned so that the center of the lens points at the top center of the screen.

The projector is just under 7 inches tall, so that puts the center of the lens about 3 to 3.5" from the bottom of the projector.

Your screen is going to be approximately 53 to 55 inches tall depending on the thickness of the frame (frames range from 1.5" to 3.5"). Add to that how ever many inches off the floor you are going to mount it (24"?). So I would guess that your shelf would be 6 feet high for a screen 24" off the ground, give or take a couple inches. It doesn't have to be exact. Between the adjustable feet on the projector and the digital keystone correction you can fix it if you are off a little.

Most installers will tell you that you should mount the projector first and then the screen. Its easier to project the grid on the wall, make your marks and mount your screen than it is to mount the screen and then try to get the projector aligned with it. But typically that advice is for ceiling mounting. For shelf mounting your don't have to loosen up 12 adjustment screws like you do on the ceiling mount bracket. :(

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #27 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 03:39 PM
Member
 
Secant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 154
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you have a broadband connection (or extra time), try page 6 of this pdf file (use 200% zoom to read the charts) for the 11HT ceiling and floor recommended installations. I ran across this site lately, but do not own a 11HT (yet) so I'm not sure if it is the real instruction manual numbers or not....

http://home.socal.rr.com/ebayraygb/images/11.pdf


Secant
Secant is offline  
post #28 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 05:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
greggz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta suburbs
Posts: 757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Kain,

Looking at that picture in the PDF that secant references reminded me of something that I completely forgot!! When level, the projector projects at an upward angle. That is why when you ceiling mount it you turn the projector upside down and align it with the top center of the screen. If you build a high shelf for your projector, the projector will actually have to be placed on the shelf UPSIDE down or mounted on the underside of the shelf to project correctly.

If you haven't already, take a look at the link secant posted to better understand what I am talking about.

Secant,

Yes, those same charts are in the manual. There is also a program that you can download from Sony called PJCalc. You tell it the size of screen, the aspect ratio of the screen, and the Sony projector you are using and it draws you a picture and tells you all of the measurements you need.

-- Gregg
 

greggz is offline  
post #29 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 06:48 PM
Member
 
scottbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SE Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would respectfullly disagree with Gregg on his recommendations for the maximum size screen with the VPL-VW10HT or 11HT. My 123" diagonal 16x9 Stewart Greyhawk looks fantastic from my VPL-VW10HT. I do indeed require total light control, and in fact have an entirely flat black theatre, avoiding any reflected light illumination of walls, ceiling or floor, and the resultant reduction of black levels on the screen. Projection distance is about 16' feet from a rear wall mounted Peerless mount, utilized to avoid a sloped cathedral ceiling.

Seating is just forward of the underside of the lense...about 14'-6" from the screen. I have even reduced the overall brightness with a CC30R color correcting filter and SMART II calibration of contrast, gains and bias. The term "immersion" would certainly apply, but this combination of large screen and close veiwing position appeals to all who have seen it. I use Cinema Black "on" to preserve lamp-life and avoid losing shadow detail.

I simply can't understand folks who extend the effort to create a reasonably large home theatre and install an 80" or 100" diagonal screen that barely fills ones fiels of vision. The Sony is certainly capable of high enough resolution to fill a screen at 123". I see no visible pixel structure from 480P DVD's upscaled or 1080i HDTV downscaled to the native 1366 x 768 array.

If you enjoy sitting in the center of most modern commercial movie theatres, you will not find a screen width to viewing distance described above as being too close. If you can control ambient light, theses projectors can fill even a 123" GreyHawk with adequate light.

As alway though...your mileage may vary.

Scott
scottbonney is offline  
post #30 of 51 Old 01-23-2002, 07:13 PM
Member
 
scottbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SE Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I forgot to emphasize how well the Peerless mount (with the wall mount bracket option) works.

I struggled with the shelf + upside down projector on a pillow or foam idea quite a bit. The Peerless is extremely sturdy and adjustable for height, yaw, pitch and rotation. I've read that keystone correction should be avioded if possible (those little pixels you discard with the digital keystone correction can distort geometry and cause stair steps and jaggies). Its worth the effort to align the projector perfectly perpendicular with the wall, and at the exact height...the Peerless with wall mount bracket makes this easy. The Peerless also features a quick disconnect without loosing all those fine alignment settings, useful for cleaning the filter.

One downside of sitting in front of and below the lense is the heat from the exhaust blowing just over your head...its quiet, but can be noticeable in warm months. Some have considered redirection with a duct, but I have not found this to be a concern...of course I live in the north...where heat is to be celebrated !

Scott
scottbonney is offline  
Closed Thread Screens

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off