Da-lite Hi Power New or Old what did you get? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I start my story with the decisions to purchase a HP screen after reading Tryg's review thread. I had already called Da-lite to request a sample pack aned it had been about 10 days and still no samples. I figured I needed a Christmas present and my current screen was old and used so why not? The Picture King Tripod comes in High Power and the link goes the the same place as what Tryg is reviewing in the big fixed screens.
I call AVS and ordered, It was drop shipped via UPS in 3 business days. The image was retro-reflective but the surface texture and color did not match the sample which showed up 3 days later. We watch and loved the image it was brighter than the old junker and I was happy. Then one night I hung the sample of the HP fabric on the screen and got really unhappy. The sample was way brighter than the screen! So I do a little more poking around including looking at the surface with a microscope and taking some photos of the surface. This was sent to Jason at AVS and to a Da-lite customer service reap whom I had contacted prior.

Eventually the rep responded with this statement
"Hi Doug,

This is what I has been explained to me - Da-Lite has two versions of
High Power fabric. We can replace your screen with the sample material
that you have. The new screen will be "just like" that sample you
recieved. I was not given the insights of the fabric issue due to being
company information. I appreciate asking about your screen issues.

Thank You"


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Probst
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:54 AM
To: Joe Pawlosky
Subject: Re: DA-Lite Pickture King Replacement



The new screen was sent by a freight company not UPS and required me to schedule a delivery time. All in all fairly quick. The new screen was as expected this time and I took a few pics.

I call DA-lite the other day and asked to speak to the CEO but got the manager of Sales, Damien Brunetto
He gave the same story that Tryg said.. better more reliable consistency in the product and yes a lower gain.
I think you will like the new product, it is not bad. The issue I have is the fact they send out samples of one thing and sell you something else that is completely different. I understand "Specifications subject to change without notice" but that is after you buy the product not before you buy it. When it happens before, it is call False Advertising!! I was also told that some screens may be made with old and some with new depending on the size of the order..


I am keeping the screen with the old fabric it is far brighter and my wife said if I try and send it back she will buy it and we will have both. So the new fabric will be sent back. I will be packing it up tomorrow so if there are photos that someone wants of the new fabric and I can oblige let me know now.

Here is a link to a bunch of photos, there are descriptions under each of photos.
 

http://misc.airscapesart.com/dalitehp/
Thanks, for looking!
Doug

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post #2 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 12:28 PM
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post #3 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I start my story with the decisions to purchase a HP screen after reading Tryg's review thread. I had already called Da-lite to request a sample pack aned it had been about 10 days and still no samples. I figured I needed a Christmas present and my current screen was old and used so why not? The Picture King Tripod comes in High Power and the link goes the the same place as what Tryg is reviewing in the big fixed screens.
I call AVS and ordered, It was drop shipped via UPS in 3 business days. The image was retro-reflective but the surface texture and color did not match the sample which showed up 3 days later. We watch and loved the image it was brighter than the old junker and I was happy. Then one night I hung the sample of the HP fabric on the screen and got really unhappy. The sample was way brighter than the screen! So I do a little more poking around including looking at the surface with a microscope and taking some photos of the surface. This was sent to Jason at AVS and to a Da-lite customer service reap whom I had contacted prior.

Eventually the rep responded with this statement
"Hi Doug,

This is what I has been explained to me - Da-Lite has two versions of
High Power fabric. We can replace your screen with the sample material
that you have. The new screen will be "just like" that sample you
recieved. I was not given the insights of the fabric issue due to being
company information. I appreciate asking about your screen issues.

Thank You"


-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Probst
Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2009 8:54 AM
To: Joe Pawlosky
Subject: Re: DA-Lite Pickture King Replacement


The new screen was sent by a freight company not UPS and required me to schedule a delivery time. All in all fairly quick. The new screen was as expected this time and I took a few pics.

I call DA-lite the other day and asked to speak to the CEO but got the manager of Sales, Damien Brunetto
He gave the same story that Tryg said.. better more reliable consistency in the product and yes a lower gain.
I think you will like the new product, it is not bad. The issue I have is the fact they send out samples of one thing and sell you something else that is completely different. I understand "Specifications subject to change without notice" but that is after you buy the product not before you buy it. When it happens before, it is call False Advertising!! I was also told that some screens may be made with old and some with new depending on the size of the order..


I am keeping the screen with the old fabric it is far brighter and my wife said if I try and send it back she will buy it and we will have both. So the new fabric will be sent back. I will be packing it up tomorrow so if there are photos that someone wants of the new fabric and I can oblige let me know now.

Here is a link to a bunch of photos, there are descriptions under each of photos.
Old vs New HP fabric
Thanks, for looking!
Doug

I'm being told the change affects the material used for manual screens, not fixed screens. Fixed screens have the same formulation. I'm asking for more detail, but so far have not heard any more.

Perhaps they were having a problem with the original coating flaking off the roller screens?
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post #4 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 12:50 PM
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Thanks for posting.

I do believe I will be rethinking getting an HP. It will be interesting to know the gain on the new HP. I am looking at a manual as well so if this change has to do with manual screens, I will pass.
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post #5 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 01:08 PM
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Great investigative work Doug. The shot on your web site of the birthday cake is very revealing.

5 weeks ago I purchased a Da-Lite 133" diagonal Contour Electrol HP screen. It is the new HP fabric. With the Panasonic 4000 it provides a beautiful image. I sit 11' from the screen and the projector is 14' 8" from the screen. The projector is 58" high and the center of screen is 53" high. The viewer's eyes are at 40" with the two viewers 12" to each side of center. From FLBoys All Screen Gain Calculator the center screen gain for my setup with the old fabric should be 1.95. The screen gain with the new fabric is unknown to me at this time.

Edit by Jay: After further investigation we've determined that I have the Old 2.8 gain fabric: Da-Lite Contour Electrol 133" HP Screen

So the question is, would I be better off with the old fabric or the new?

In previous conversations with Doug he mentioned that the old fabric has a higher gain with a narrower viewing cone and the new fabric has a lower gain, wider viewing cone, better blacks & detail.

When my Panny 4000 is set to Normal, the image in bright scenes to me is too bright for my setup. In Color 1 or Cinema 1 mode the image brightness is usually just right, but the bulb is new. I can't help but think that once the bulb gets older, the image in Color 1 or Cinema 1 mode may be too dim.

So to answer my own question, with my setup I believe that I am better off with the new fabric when the bulb is new, and the old fabric when the bulb is old and therefore dimmer. Given this new information revealed by Doug, if I were buying a screen today I would still go with the High Power screen. My wife and I love it.
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post #6 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 01:18 PM
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What a snafu by DaLite. They should have updated the website and retailers before shipping the new.

A thought also. Da-Lite is at CES this week so they may be showing the new material there.
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post #7 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 01:45 PM
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Yikes.

"I'm being told the change affects the material used for manual screens, not fixed screens."

What about electrics?

They're an in-between case; while they do roll up and down, the only force is gravity as opposed to that needed to pull down the manual.

Noah
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post #8 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 01:57 PM
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Noah, the Contour Electrol that I mentioned above is an electric screen. The 133" that I ordered is the new fabric.

Edit by Jay: After further investigation we've determined that I have the Old 2.8 gain fabric: Da-Lite Contour Electrol 133" HP Screen

It's difficult for me to complain about the change when everyone viewing it including myself is smiling ear to ear. To us, the new HP fabric is absolutely beautiful and I can't think of a similarly priced screen that I would prefer to the new HP fabric.
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post #9 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 02:08 PM
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Right, thanks.

My concern is that I have a 133" in the old version, and it's barely bright enough as it is.

However, w/my ceiling mount I'm getting 1.6 gain, so it's conceiveable I'd be better off w/the new lower gain fabric.

airscapes, can you say if the lower gain is accompanied by less rejection of off-axis ambient light?

Seems like it would have to be.

Noah
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post #10 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Right, thanks.

My concern is that I have a 133" in the old version, and it's barely bright enough as it is.

However, w/my ceiling mount I'm getting 1.6 gain, so it's conceiveable I'd be better off w/the new lower gain fabric.

airscapes, can you say if the lower gain is accompanied by less rejection of off-axis ambient light?

Seems like it would have to be.

I am no expert but if you look at the microscopic photos you will see more white area and less and smaller beads.. this would make it less retro reflective giving less rejections to ambient light and I did observer this.
I would have been very happy with the new stuff if I had not received the old sample. The site is a redirect to a non standard port so it may not be accessible from inside corporate sites.
LL
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post #11 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I will be packing it up tomorrow so if there are photos that someone wants of the new fabric and I can oblige let me know now.

Doug, Great shots! If possible, I would be interested in comparison photos of the brightness of the two screens at 10, 20 and 30 degrees off axis w/r to the PJ line of sight. It would be interesting to see at what point (if any) the new screen becomes brighter than the old. TIA.
Lou
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post #12 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLBoy View Post

Doug, Great shots! If possible, I would be interested in comparison photos of the brightness of the two screens at 10, 20 and 30 degrees off axis w/r to the PJ line of sight. It would be interesting to see at what point (if any) the new screen becomes brighter than the old. TIA.
Lou

Would love to but don't really have the room. When I sit at the far side of the room against the wall the new stuff is slightly brighter but not much. I think the PQ is a bit finer since the beads are smaller and there is more flat surface area that does not have beads. If this is what they will be selling from now on, I think there needs to be a professional evaluation using high quality instrumentation. I am new to this and as I said, If I had not hung that sample up there would be none of this. It just pissed me off that the 2 things did not match and no body knew anything till I shoved pictures in their face.
My own opinion is that the new fabric is cheaper to make and probably easier to control quality. It looks as if the beads are deep in the emulsion/paint solution so shoot and go.. no idea how the old bigger beads were affixed.
Just a real bad job of rolling out a new product and and an obsessive twit like me got the miss match sample and screen.
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post #13 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Taylor View Post

Great investigative work Doug. The shot on your web site of the birthday cake is very revealing.

5 weeks ago I purchased a Da-Lite 133" diagonal Contour Electrol HP screen. It is the new HP fabric. With the Panasonic 4000 it provides a beautiful image. I sit 11' from the screen and the projector is 14' 8" from the screen. The projector is 58" high and the center of screen is 53" high. The viewer's eyes are at 40" with the two viewers 12" to each side of center. From FLBoys All Screen Gain Calculator the center screen gain for my setup with the old fabric should be 1.95. The screen gain with the new fabric is unknown to me at this time.

So the question is, would I be better off with the old fabric or the new?

In previous conversations with Doug he mentioned that the old fabric has a higher gain with a narrower viewing cone and the new fabric has a lower gain, wider viewing cone, better blacks & detail.

When my Panny 4000 is set to Normal, the image in bright scenes to me is too bright for my setup. In Color 1 or Cinema 1 mode the image brightness is usually just right, but the bulb is new. I can't help but think that once the bulb gets older, the image in Color 1 or Cinema 1 mode may be too dim.

So to answer my own question, with my setup I believe that I am better off with the new fabric when the bulb is new, and the old fabric when the bulb is old and therefore dimmer. Given this new information revealed by Doug, if I were buying a screen today I would still go with the High Power screen. My wife and I love it.

That is great news. Is your lamp on normal or low? If it is on low, then you have your bulb age answer. If it is on normal, then I hope it is so bright now that as it ages it still has enough ft.L that your eye will adjust and it will look the same.

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #14 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I am no expert but if you look at the microscopic photos you will see more white area and less and smaller beads.. this would make it less retro reflective giving less rejections to ambient light and I did observer this.

WOW, that is interesting. The old one seems to have larger and more uniform beads, while the newer one has both smaller and randomly sized beads. I wonder if the randomness in some way makes it more uniform looking. That's kind of counterintuitive.

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #15 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 03:12 PM
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And remember guys, screen shot of patches are extremely misleading a lot of the time. Your eye will decide how much light to let in based on the average level, so any small patch will be screwed up because your eye isn't adjusted for that little spot. You really can't draw any conclusions from that about contrast or saturation type issues.

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #16 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 03:16 PM
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Just to make sure is the sample I received (dark backing) the old version? The sample seemed extremely bright.

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS - SUPER BOWL XLIV CHAMPIONS
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post #17 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHouse View Post

That is great news. Is your lamp on normal or low? If it is on low, then you have your bulb age answer. If it is on normal, then I hope it is so bright now that as it ages it still has enough ft.L that your eye will adjust and it will look the same.

I usually keep the lamp power in Eco-Mode when the room is totally dark and set it to Normal when it's not. I usually set the Picture Mode to Cinema 1 or Color 1. However, when giving demos I like to dazzle them with the lamp on Normal and select Normal Picture Mode.
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post #18 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 05:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgathright View Post

Just to make sure is the sample I received (dark backing) the old version? The sample seemed extremely bright.

they are both black backed but if you shine a light along the front like in my photo you will see little squares if it is the new and smooth surface if it is the old If you ordered in December you probably have the old, they are just now fixing that issue. Truth be told the little squares don't tell you much of anything. Looking at the square of old on new it looks washed out but the complete screen of the old looks great.. When there is nothing to compare either one will look good. Just felt cheated when I got something unknown when my screen arrived as would any of you had this happened to you.
http://misc.airscapesart.com/dalitehp/

Look folks I am not knocking the new stuff, it is just not the same as what we have all been reading about and calculating on etc. Difference is slight but enough that my wife who doesn't really care one way or another and my 82 year old mother both sitting to the sides of the projector, I am in the middle with the unit in front of us, all say, "Old is brighter and better". I had the screens set up side by side to night to see if the new was brighter off to the side but could not really detect a enough of a difference to say one way or the other cause I ran into the wall

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post #19 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I had the screens set up side by side to night to see if the new was brighter off to the side but could not really detect a enough of a difference to say one way or the other cause I ran into the wall

Are they still set up? You don't need a wide room to compare them at a wide viewing angle. All you need to do is get closer to the screens as far to one side as the width you have. You should easily be able to do 30 degrees from the center. Please, please, please?
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post #20 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 05:49 PM
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Count me as disappointed. I was really getting into the hype of getting the 2.8 gain in pull down. I live alone and watch most movies, tv and do gaming alone, so for me the cone was/is favored.

Airscapes, the older screen simply looks better or has better PQ in your opinion?
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post #21 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Count me as disappointed. I was really getting into the hype of getting the 2.8 gain in pull down. I live alone and watch most movies, tv and do gaming alone, so for me the cone was/is favored.

Airscapes, the older screen simply looks better or has better PQ in your opinion?

It is brighter. I loved the first screen with the new material just was freaked when I put the sample on and it was so much brighter. When I get a new house and can by a big screen it will be the HP and probably the new stuff..
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post #22 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

It is brighter. I loved the first screen with the new material just was freaked when I put the sample on and it was so much brighter. When I get a new house and can by a big screen it will be the HP and probably the new stuff..

And for me and my setup, the new will probably be fine. My room is 18x13 and I am going with a 110" diagonal screen, Panny 4000 15 ft away and seating position 11ft. I am sure it will be more than bright enough, just like you said though once you see one compared to the other, it is hard not to be cynical and want what we want.
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post #23 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 06:59 PM
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Do you think it will still resist waves as well as the old. I want a high power, but I want THE high power I heard all the great things about. One of the places I have been keeping an eye on here in Canada just upped the price on the screen I want, but is it the screen I want now ???

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yikes, just ordered a large model C HP screen today thinking the material would be the same as my old (much smaller) HP screen material. I'm already worried the screen won't be bright enough, now I'm doubly worried. Not sure what to do...
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post #25 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodK View Post

Is the new material as thick as the old? Do you think it will still resist waves as well as the old. I want a high power, but I want THE high power I heard all the great things about. One of the places I have been keeping an eye on here in Canada just upped the price on the screen I want, but is it the screen I want now ???

Yeah several of us feel the same. We don't want the "bait and switch" version.
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post #26 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodK View Post

Is the new material as thick as the old? Do you think it will still resist waves as well as the old. I want a high power, but I want THE high power I heard all the great things about. One of the places I have been keeping an eye on here in Canada just upped the price on the screen I want, but is it the screen I want now ???

check the link at that top. there are pics of the thickness being measured and no I think the new wrinkles more at list in the picture king
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post #27 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 07:14 PM
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The link at the top showing old and new HP is not encouraging. Sigh.

And I do now wonder if the negative ProjectorCentral review of the HP is actually the new material...
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post #28 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 07:30 PM
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The link at the top showing old and new HP is not encouraging. Sigh.

And I do now wonder if the negative ProjectorCentral review of the HP is actually the new material...


They tested it and the article review claims it is the 2.8 gain HP. If the newer material is 2.4 as is being suggested I think they tested the old screen material.

After reading the review and what some replied to it and taking into account what is being said overall, I think the newer screen at 2.4 will be fine and maybe better for more HT enthusiasts than less. We'll see.
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post #29 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 07:56 PM
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Being this info is just now coming out the stock in most of the stores surely would have the old material.

May have to order quickly!

NEW ORLEANS SAINTS - SUPER BOWL XLIV CHAMPIONS
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post #30 of 583 Old 01-05-2010, 08:01 PM
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I purchased an 8 foot square pull down HP about 8months ago and noticed that the fabric above the join was noticeably less bright than below the join. Some had mentioned that it was a quality control issue but maybe it is infact two different fabrics, it's hard to say. I never use that part of the screen so it was never an issue anyway, I was just curious.

I might add that I think the HP is a better screen when it's used at a lower gain, say for example mouting the projector at 2-3 feet above your head rather than 1 foot. This is something I've just recently done and I prefer the overall look of the image right now. I feel the HP at close to full gain has a slightly unnatural glare about it, which effects colours and some perceived detail, a bit like when you crank up the contrast setting too high and whites get blown out. It's subtle but noticeable in my experience. My thinking is that a lower HP screen is perhaps better way to go.
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