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post #271 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
A Torus screen is a screen that is curved both horizontally and vertically with different radii for each. Think of cutting the end off of a doughnut.



Have you seen a Torus? Most owners said that the viewing angle was much wider than they thought.

I really have never understood viewing angle and why some seem to obsess over it. If you are to far off of center, then the viewing experience isn't enjoyable anyway.
Same here. If the person is watching from that much angle, then they are not that interested in what is being watched. Only exception that I can think of would be a really wide room showing a sporting event with a lot of people over. Even then, those that are really interested, will be more in front of the screen.

Added
Though there are a few ALR screens that do have a pretty narrow viewing angle, but for most rooms, this is usually less of a problem than many people think.
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post #272 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Same here. If the person is watching from that much angle, then they are not that interested in what is being watched. Only exception that I can think of would be a really wide room showing a sporting event with a lot of people over. Even then, those that are really interested, will be more in front of the screen.

Added
Though there are a few ALR screens that do have a pretty narrow viewing angle, but for most rooms, this is usually less of a problem than many people think.
I'm not sure I agree. Take the Black Diamond 1.4, for example. We have a 120" white screen in our conference room. I take the BD 1.4 sample and put it in the bottom right corner of the screen. Straight on, it looks good. As I move to the left, it gets darker and darker. By the time I get to the middle of the screen, it's already taken a big hit - it's much darker. By the time I get to the left side of the screen, it's nearly black. Distance from the screen (5'-15') does not matter.

OK, that's a sample. On a 106" screen at Star Power (in Scottsdale), I can see the same issue. It's not as noticeable, because we're now looking at the full screen, and there's a lot of image up there. However, knowing that this is an issue, I notice how it gets darker, the further the screen gets from my seating position. Keep in mind, I'm not going way outside of anything here - my extremes are one screen corner to the other. This is in the dark, with a motorized shade covering the window.

Star Power has the entire left wall as a window, so when the shade is up, the screen is watchable from the left side of the screen. However, as you move to the middle and especially the right side of the screen, the image becomes unwatchable. My wife said "NO WAY".

I see the same exact thing at my friend's house - he had a BD 1.4 put in. He loves it. However, I can tell you that if he opens the shutters on the right side of the room, the view from the left side (even the middle of the room) is severely compromised.

To me - angles matter.

Dave
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post #273 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
I'm not sure I agree. Take the Black Diamond 1.4, for example. We have a 120" white screen in our conference room. I take the BD 1.4 sample and put it in the bottom right corner of the screen. Straight on, it looks good. As I move to the left, it gets darker and darker. By the time I get to the middle of the screen, it's already taken a big hit - it's much darker. By the time I get to the left side of the screen, it's nearly black. Distance from the screen (5'-15') does not matter.

OK, that's a sample. On a 106" screen at Star Power (in Scottsdale), I can see the same issue. It's not as noticeable, because we're now looking at the full screen, and there's a lot of image up there. However, knowing that this is an issue, I notice how it gets darker, the further the screen gets from my seating position. Keep in mind, I'm not going way outside of anything here - my extremes are one screen corner to the other. This is in the dark, with a motorized shade covering the window.

Star Power has the entire left wall as a window, so when the shade is up, the screen is watchable from the left side of the screen. However, as you move to the middle and especially the right side of the screen, the image becomes unwatchable. My wife said "NO WAY".

I see the same exact thing at my friend's house - he had a BD 1.4 put in. He loves it. However, I can tell you that if he opens the shutters on the right side of the room, the view from the left side (even the middle of the room) is severely compromised.

To me - angles matter.

Dave

Same here. I have one row of seating 14' wide, at about 11' from either a 118" wide 2.35:1 screen or a 106" wide 16:9 screen. The screens I have work really well off center - both the Stewart Cima Neve and StudioTek 130 G3 are pretty forgiving. Good thing too - I usually let the guests sit in the center sweet spot seats !

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post #274 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Same here. I have one row of seating 14' wide, at about 11' from either a 118" wide 2.35:1 screen or a 106" wide 16:9 screen. The screens I have work really well off center - both the Stewart Cima Neve and StudioTek 130 G3 are pretty forgiving. Good thing too - I usually let the guests sit in the center sweet spot seats !
The StudioTeck 130 G3 may be forgiving, but for an ALR screen with half gain angle of 21 degrees and a viewing distance of 11', the gain drops by 50% at 4.2' off the centre of the screen - and that's when viewing from the sweet spot.

That shows the screen viewing angle spec does matter.
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post #275 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
I'm not sure I agree. Take the Black Diamond 1.4, for example. We have a 120" white screen in our conference room. I take the BD 1.4 sample and put it in the bottom right corner of the screen. Straight on, it looks good. As I move to the left, it gets darker and darker. By the time I get to the middle of the screen, it's already taken a big hit - it's much darker. By the time I get to the left side of the screen, it's nearly black. Distance from the screen (5'-15') does not matter.

OK, that's a sample. On a 106" screen at Star Power (in Scottsdale), I can see the same issue. It's not as noticeable, because we're now looking at the full screen, and there's a lot of image up there. However, knowing that this is an issue, I notice how it gets darker, the further the screen gets from my seating position. Keep in mind, I'm not going way outside of anything here - my extremes are one screen corner to the other. This is in the dark, with a motorized shade covering the window.

Star Power has the entire left wall as a window, so when the shade is up, the screen is watchable from the left side of the screen. However, as you move to the middle and especially the right side of the screen, the image becomes unwatchable. My wife said "NO WAY".

I see the same exact thing at my friend's house - he had a BD 1.4 put in. He loves it. However, I can tell you that if he opens the shutters on the right side of the room, the view from the left side (even the middle of the room) is severely compromised.

To me - angles matter.

Dave
As you noticed, the difference appears much larger, when you are looking at a small sample, compared to a full screen. You are specifically testing for brightness, when most people just viewing from a little bit of an angle will think nothing of it. It is sort of like 3D ghosting. You have guys that absolutely run down some projectors for 3D ghosting and yet to the casual viewer, the 3D is often times fine. I am that way. I watched a 3D movie that was known for ghosting on a JVC. I saw bad ghosting in about 3 scenes. I turned around and immediately watched the movie a second time (son wanted to watch it). This time, rather than pay attention to the movie, I only watched for ghosting. I was surprised at how much minor ghosting I missed, when engrossed in the movie.

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post #276 of 1144 Old 08-11-2015, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
As you noticed, the difference appears much larger, when you are looking at a small sample, compared to a full screen...
Hi Mike,

While that is true, the angle issue was bad enough on viewing a full screen BD 1.4 to turn me off from it, just from the point of view of the width of the seating at Star Power - three chairs. I could probably try to live with it in a dark room, or a room with only ambient light from the ceiling, but in a room with any ambient light coming from the side, I could not ignore it. Without even sharing my opinion, my wife shared her disapproval - no WAF for the BD 1.4.

Now, the Microlite 3.0, with a very wide viewing cone, should be able to get the WAF, assuming it's as good as I hope it is.

Dave
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post #277 of 1144 Old 08-12-2015, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
I'm not sure I agree. Take the Black Diamond 1.4, for example. We have a 120" white screen in our conference room. I take the BD 1.4 sample and put it in the bottom right corner of the screen. Straight on, it looks good. As I move to the left, it gets darker and darker. By the time I get to the middle of the screen, it's already taken a big hit - it's much darker. By the time I get to the left side of the screen, it's nearly black. Distance from the screen (5'-15') does not matter.

OK, that's a sample. On a 106" screen at Star Power (in Scottsdale), I can see the same issue. It's not as noticeable, because we're now looking at the full screen, and there's a lot of image up there. However, knowing that this is an issue, I notice how it gets darker, the further the screen gets from my seating position. Keep in mind, I'm not going way outside of anything here - my extremes are one screen corner to the other. This is in the dark, with a motorized shade covering the window.

Star Power has the entire left wall as a window, so when the shade is up, the screen is watchable from the left side of the screen. However, as you move to the middle and especially the right side of the screen, the image becomes unwatchable. My wife said "NO WAY".

I see the same exact thing at my friend's house - he had a BD 1.4 put in. He loves it. However, I can tell you that if he opens the shutters on the right side of the room, the view from the left side (even the middle of the room) is severely compromised.

To me - angles matter.

Dave
Interesting analysis and description Dave, thank you for sharing.
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post #278 of 1144 Old 08-13-2015, 07:32 AM
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"I see the same exact thing at my friend's house - he had a BD 1.4 put in. He loves it. However, I can tell you that if he opens the shutters on the right side of the room, the view from the left side (even the middle of the room) is severely compromised."


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Interesting analysis and description Dave, thank you for sharing.
That is not viewing angle. That is physics. Light from anywhere is going to hurt an image. It is just the matter of degree. Some screens take less of a hit, but all screens take a hit, when light is introduced. The BD is one of the better screens for side ambient light.

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post #279 of 1144 Old 08-13-2015, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
That is not viewing angle. That is physics. Light from anywhere is going to hurt an image. It is just the matter of degree. Some screens take less of a hit, but all screens take a hit, when light is introduced. The BD is one of the better screens for side ambient light.
Thanks Mike! It seemed like the Elite Screens Darkstar/Polarstar handled side ambient light better than the BD from what I saw, but I didn't have the two full screens side by side. Still, it was not enough to convince me that I would be happy using these screens as a full time TV. It just kind of cemented my decision to get a flat panel TV for day time use (shutters open along the left side of my room), and to use a motorized ALR screen for night use and for day time use (shutters closed). That's just me though - YMMV.

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post #280 of 1144 Old 08-13-2015, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, i must say that when i started this thread 5 years ago i never thought it would have taken Microlite Screens so long to set up a distributorship in the USA, it's about time !
Unfortunately in my current circumstance of eagerly waiting for the imminent release of affordable 80" UHDTV with FALD, HDR, HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 for no more than $5K msrp (Vizio 2015 P-Series, hopefully) i cannot justify spending $1.3K + shipping for the 88" Microlite screen with 3.0 material.
Granted that compared to other high profile screens such pricing is not really that absurd, but it would be great if it would cost no more than $500, again, considering current pricing for smaller and yet projection-sized LCD flat panel displays such as the 2015 Vizio M-Series 80" currently on sale at Costco for less than $4K.
On the other hand i was rather impressed with the chart at the company's website showing how wide and even the onscreen illumination for the 3.0 material is compared to standard screen material, hardly showing any "hotspotting" at all...
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post #281 of 1144 Old 08-14-2015, 02:16 PM
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Got some goodies today, I'll post some thoughts when I get the time either tonight or in a few days.
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post #282 of 1144 Old 08-14-2015, 02:34 PM
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Got some goodies today, I'll post some thoughts when I get the time either tonight or in a few days.
If you are able to make any comparative evaluations compared to Dalite HP screens, that would be most illuminating (no pun intended).

PS I would be most interested in the image quality under fully light-controlled conditions (e.g. bat cave) rather than how they deal with ambient light.

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post #283 of 1144 Old 08-14-2015, 03:42 PM
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Got some goodies today, I'll post some thoughts when I get the time either tonight or in a few days.
I received two samples - the 2.0 and the 3.0. I cannot wait to look at them this afternoon. So far though, I can say that they seem to be scratch resistant, so the score so far is PROS: 1, CONS: 0.


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post #284 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 08:59 AM
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So, to get max gain, do it have to be shelf mounted at eye level like the HP screen?
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post #285 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 09:17 AM
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So, to get max gain, do it have to be shelf mounted at eye level like the HP screen?
Presumably not (because of the much wider viewing cone), but this is a good question, so would be very relevant to hear from those who know.
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post #286 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Presumably not (because of the much wider viewing cone), but this is a good question, so would be very relevant to hear from those who know.
I believe the wide viewing angle of the Microlite screens is only in the horizontal direction - unless someone has confirmed otherwise or seen the specification.
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post #287 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 10:23 AM
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If it always at least 2 gain ceiling mounted, I'm sold but I doubt it. I just want to use a cheaper LED projector ceiling mounted.
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post #288 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post
If it always at least 2 gain ceiling mounted, I'm sold but I doubt it. I just want to use a cheaper LED projector ceiling mounted.
The F2 gain tested 1.8 in the Projector Central test, so presumably the F3 gain should be higher than 2.
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post #289 of 1144 Old 08-15-2015, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
The F2 gain tested 1.8 in the Projector Central test, so presumably the F3 gain should be higher than 2.
I seen that and I wondered how that mounted the projector to get 1.8 max gain.
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post #290 of 1144 Old 08-16-2015, 01:36 PM
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Here's a shot taken from my iphone around 3 ft away. In person, both screens appeared to have higher luminance level and you don't see that slight bright clipping below the lower eyelid, so take this shot w/ a pinch of salt. One is a DNP, while the other a Micro-lite.

We know photos don't tell much coz of my phone; hence, let's just focus primarily on the color side, since one source was only used. Your thoughts?
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post #291 of 1144 Old 08-16-2015, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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To my eyes it is obvious : the image on the left has much better colors, specifically saturation, and i did not even have to enlarge the image to see the difference. Once enlarged it is plain and simple...
Which test screen material was used for the picture on the left and for the picture on the right ?
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post #292 of 1144 Old 08-16-2015, 05:46 PM
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Are the Microlites retro reflective or angular reflective?

Thanks,

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post
Here's a shot taken from my iphone around 3 ft away. In person, both screens appeared to have higher luminance level and you don't see that slight bright clipping below the lower eyelid, so take this shot w/ a pinch of salt. One is a DNP, while the other a Micro-lite.

We know photos don't tell much coz of my phone; hence, let's just focus primarily on the color side, since one source was only used. Your thoughts?
Much appreciated Ximori. The one on the left seems to have better colours, is more saturated, definitely brighter and seems to have better blacks although black levels is a bit difficult to judge arising from the fact that the image on the left is not the same as the image on the right.

So I'm presuming the image on the left is the Microlite and the one on the right is dnp. Is the Microlite an F2 or an F3 ?
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post #294 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Presumably not (because of the much wider viewing cone), but this is a good question, so would be very relevant to hear from those who know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pip View Post
Are the Microlites retro reflective or angular reflective?

Thanks,

Pip
I quote Michael from Microlite:
Quote:
Installation requirement: projector must be install with 16" above the center of projection screen. Projector must be 12 feet away. Audience's eye must be the center of screen
From this we can draw a conclusion that angular-reflective properties are prevalent in this screen.
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post #295 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 02:05 AM
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[quote=PJC Bill;36332994]Oil slick and pearlescent describe the same effect -- a slight shimmer. Have you ever seen the shimmer on, for example, the feathers of a crow?

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When is this visible - all of the time, only with an image in a darkened room, only when you move your head, only with a certain minimum brightness...?
Can someone answer this?

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post #296 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 02:08 AM
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I quote Michael from Microlite:

Quote:Installation requirement: projector must be install with 16" above the center of projection screen. Projector must be 12 feet away. Audience's eye must be the center of screen

That's awfully restrictive; maybe he meant a minimum of 12'?

Noah
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post #297 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 03:21 AM
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I'm guessing he probably means at least 12 feet away for the projector placement. I'd imagine it also varies depending on your screen size like other companies.
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post #298 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I quote Michael from Microlite:

Quote:Installation requirement: projector must be install with 16" above the center of projection screen. Projector must be 12 feet away. Audience's eye must be the center of screen

That's awfully restrictive; maybe he meant a minimum of 12'?
Hi Noah, yes, the 12 feet he quoted is probably a minimum recommended distance. With such screens it is recommended that the projector be placed away from the screen by a factor of about 1.5 to 1.8 times the width of the screen to prevent hot spotting and shimmering effects.

What concerns me more is the projector and eye-level positions that he mentioned. With bigger sized screens, it would be rather difficult and not practical to position the screen so that its centre is at eye-level when seated, often a centre speaker would need to be positioned right below the centre of the screen. Again, for a large screen, the projector being 16 inches above the centre of the screen would mean that the projector would need to come down pretty low from the ceiling.

There are some things to take into consideration such as the brightness and throw distances of the projector. A brighter projector can be placed further back. Placing a projector further back would change the angle of incidence of the light beam. Although, for watching in rooms with significant ambient light, one would be tempted to go for the minimum throw distance in order to achieve the brightest image possible on screen.

Can someone please clarify these 2 issues (projector offset and eye-level relative to the screen), I think it's important to get a clear understanding.
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post #299 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 04:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Hi Noah, yes, the 12 feet he quoted is probably a minimum recommended distance. With such screens it is recommended that the projector be placed away from the screen by a factor of about 1.5 to 1.8 times the width of the screen to prevent hot spotting and shimmering effects.

What concerns me more is the projector and eye-level positions that he mentioned. With bigger sized screens, it would be rather difficult and not practical to position the screen so that its centre is at eye-level when seated, often a centre speaker would need to be positioned right below the centre of the screen. Again, for a large screen, the projector being 16 inches above the centre of the screen would mean that the projector would need to come down pretty low from the ceiling.

There are some things to take into consideration such as the brightness and throw distances of the projector. A brighter projector can be placed further back. Placing a projector further back would change the angle of incidence of the light beam. Although, for watching in rooms with significant ambient light, one would be tempted to go for the minimum throw distance in order to achieve the brightest image possible on screen.

Can someone please clarify these 2 issues (projector offset and eye-level relative to the screen), I think it's important to get a clear understanding.
I don't think Michael meant your eyes literally need to be at the center of the screen. He probably means the angle of your eyes to the center of the screen. If it's an angular reflective screen which I believe it is, the picture will show at the opposite, but mirrored angle back at the viewer. So if the angle of your eye to the center of the screen is 15 degrees, the projector would angle 15 degrees up (opposite, mirrored direction).

Elite explains this pretty well:

Step 1: Establish the general "eye level" of the viewers
Step 2: Set the appropriate projection level
  • "Desktop" or "Table-mounted", projects at an upward level
  • Ceiling mount, projects at a downward level
Step 3: Adjust your screen height level and projection angle

Input Angle (Θ1 = Output Angle (Θ2) aligns with the viewer's eye level.

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Last edited by ch1sox; 08-17-2015 at 06:03 AM.
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post #300 of 1144 Old 08-17-2015, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post
Here's a shot taken from my iphone around 3 ft away. In person, both screens appeared to have higher luminance level and you don't see that slight bright clipping below the lower eyelid, so take this shot w/ a pinch of salt. One is a DNP, while the other a Micro-lite.

We know photos don't tell much coz of my phone; hence, let's just focus primarily on the color side, since one source was only used. Your thoughts?
Hi Ximori,

Are you going to share any more about this?

Dave
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