Microlite Optical Screen - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1sox View Post
The side light is a light in the basement. This picture shows it better. FYI the screen shown is my current screen, a Draper XS850E.
I believe that picture demonstrates the ambient light rejection capability, but not the gain. For the latter, it's best to have a plain white image projected on the samples.
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I believe that picture demonstrates the ambient light rejection capability, but not the gain. For the latter, it's best to have a plain white image projected on the samples.
You had asked what the stray of light was so I was letting you know it was just a basement light I had on. The picture with all the samples was just to show what samples I had. I did use a plain white image as well which was shown in the YouTube video I posted.
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
OK, prospective first time projector/screen owner here (although I'm in charge of the ones at our office), and so far, I like the idea of the F3 from Microlite. However, for night time viewing, how do you dim the projector enough to get decent blacks? I know there was the mention of using the JVC. Low lamp obviously. Is there something you can do with the iris do help dim the picture as well?

Thanks,
Dave
With a jvc projector, the iris goes from -15 to 0. So, on low lamp you get around 250 lumens at -15 to 700 lumens at 0. So, you can cut the brightness by a good amount.
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:06 AM
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The F3 sounds good but I'm still waiting for someone to conduct proper full screen evaluations because the human eye is extremely adaptive and it can get rather difficult to make evaluations. However, thank you so much to those individuals who have initiated a comparison to provide initial insight. There are a few things that I am sensitive to and appreciate when they are in effect:-

1. Image sharpness - this is dependant mostly on the projection technology being used and good glass.
2. Colour accuracy - This is important to me.
3. Highlight detail - Subtle details in very light areas of the image should not blow-out to white (0% tone) unless it's intentional.
4. Shadow detail - Subtle detail in very dark areas of an image should not be crushed to black (100% tone) unless it's intentional.

I notice the F3 is being recommended for home theatre use but does it not become too bright for night time viewing when there is absolutely no natural ambient light in a room apart from the typical LED down-lighters in modern homes ? In such situations are white levels retained to sensible levels to avoid the subtle details from being blown out of highlights or white areas ? In this respect, is the F2 better for night time viewing ? During daytime with the presence of natural ambient light, are the black levels retained to preserve image fidelity in terms of decent contrasts ?

Based on member experiences here, the F3 seems to be a very good screen and I like the fact that it provides a bright colour accurate image. I'm just trying to figure out how the screen performs at night in reduced ambient light conditions. The use of a neutral density filter makes sense but it works in a linear fashion which means highlights, mid-tones and shadow areas would be darkened with the use of an ND filter. An adjustable iris would make sense but I wonder how that would turn out in real world tests. JVC projectors are very good for their amazing black-levels and cinematic image but I'm not sure how it would perform in a daytime indoor ambient-lit environment with it's approximately 700 lumens spec, can someone with a JVC PJ try this and report their findings ? In a bat cave the JVC is awesome although I personally prefer single chip DLP engines as opposed to LCOS engines for their image-pop and sharpness. I think saying the F3 is better for home theatre can be a bit misleading because to some the term "home-theatre" is associated with dedicated rooms that are completely dark and often have white screens in them. I think what people mean to say is that the F3 can provide close to home theatre like image quality in typical indoor ambient light environments.

I like what I'm reading about the F3 but need some of these issues clarified.
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Old 08-21-2015, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
1. Image sharpness - this is dependant mostly on the projection technology being used and good glass.
2. Colour accuracy - This is important to me.
3. Highlight detail - Subtle details in very light areas of the image should not blow-out to white (0% tone) unless it's intentional.
4. Shadow detail - Subtle detail in very dark areas of an image should not be crushed to black (100% tone) unless it's intentional.
These are all important attributes to a quality image, but are predominantly limited by the projector rather than the screen. For colour accuracy, minor screen tints can be "calibrated out".

Quote:
I notice the F3 is being recommended for home theatre use but does it not become too bright for night time viewing when there is absolutely no natural ambient light in a room apart from the typical LED down-lighters in modern homes?
Assuming you have a projector with manual iris control, that should not be a problem.
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Old 08-21-2015, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1sox View Post
You had asked what the stray of light was so I was letting you know it was just a basement light I had on. The picture with all the samples was just to show what samples I had. I did use a plain white image as well which was shown in the YouTube video I posted.
I was asking because I was not (and still not) able to find to the comparison video.
Which post # is it? Thanks.
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Old 08-21-2015, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Qualunquemente View Post
Thankyou very much ch1sox.
I would watch mine from only 7' distance: could you please tell me if shimmers from this distance is much evident/distracting ?

I'm interested in the 100" 2.35:1 F3 screen listed on the website but I didn't understand if 100" is the viewing area or the overall dimension with the frame. Does anyone know ?
100" means diagonal viewing area.

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Old 08-21-2015, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
OK, prospective first time projector/screen owner here (although I'm in charge of the ones at our office), and so far, I like the idea of the F3 from Microlite. However, for night time viewing, how do you dim the projector enough to get decent blacks? I know there was the mention of using the JVC. Low lamp obviously. Is there something you can do with the iris do help dim the picture as well?

Thanks,
Dave
This is where projectors like the JVC shine. Along with a dynamic iris, they have an adjustable iris, that is used to control light output. So in low lamp you have 15 settings and the same for high lamp. You will be able to have a huge range in the light output, so reducing the light output for nighttime use is not a problem.
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
This is where projectors like the JVC shine. Along with a dynamic iris, they have an adjustable iris, that is used to control light output. So in low lamp you have 15 settings and the same for high lamp. You will be able to have a huge range in the light output, so reducing the light output for nighttime use is not a problem.
Thanks Mike!

Dave
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
This is where projectors like the JVC shine. Along with a dynamic iris, they have an adjustable iris, that is used to control light output. So in low lamp you have 15 settings and the same for high lamp. You will be able to have a huge range in the light output, so reducing the light output for nighttime use is not a problem.
Hi Mike,

Does the Sony HW55 have similar adjustments for an adjustable iris, or is this unique to the JVC?

Thanks,
Dave
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Old 08-21-2015, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
Hi Mike,

Does the Sony HW55 have similar adjustments for an adjustable iris, or is this unique to the JVC?

Thanks,
Dave
No, the Sony does not have the same ability. The Sony has one iris. If set manually, then you no longer have the dynamic iris.

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Old 08-21-2015, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
No, the Sony does not have the same ability. The Sony has one iris. If set manually, then you no longer have the dynamic iris.
OK then, it sounds like the Microlite F3 and the JVC X500 are the perfect pairing (for now :-)

Dave
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
This is where projectors like the JVC shine. Along with a dynamic iris, they have an adjustable iris, that is used to control light output. So in low lamp you have 15 settings and the same for high lamp. You will be able to have a huge range in the light output, so reducing the light output for nighttime use is not a problem.
Hi Mike,

RE: F3 + JVC Projector

The adjustable iris that controls the light output would certainly solve the night time viewing problem. However, with the iris fully open for max brightness, do the JVC projectors have enough light output for daylight viewing ?

Ay possibility of conducting a test for us Mike ?
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
These are all important attributes to a quality image, but are predominantly limited by the projector rather than the screen. For colour accuracy, minor screen tints can be "calibrated out".


Assuming you have a projector with manual iris control, that should not be a problem.
Thanks Dominic, I have requested Mike to carry out a test for us using the F3 and a JVC projector. If anyone else here has tried this or is able to try it out, please share your findings.
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Old 08-21-2015, 11:16 AM
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This is where projectors like the JVC shine
Hi Mike I just read your post again and noticed your comment about JVC projectors. The way I perceive this is that you may have already tried out the F3 and JVC combination. Can you please give us more details, especially concerning daylight viewing in typical daylight ambient light environments.
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Old 08-21-2015, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
OK then, it sounds like the Microlite F3 and the JVC X500 are the perfect pairing (for now :-)

Dave
If you want to wait, I'll be the guinea pig here in a couple months. I wish we had more people in California to go check out the screen at their store. As it stands now, we still haven't had many reports of users that have seen it full screen. Sure the sample might look good, but seeing it full screen will answer a lot more questions.
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Old 08-21-2015, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Hi Mike,

RE: F3 + JVC Projector

The adjustable iris that controls the light output would certainly solve the night time viewing problem. However, with the iris fully open for max brightness, do the JVC projectors have enough light output for daylight viewing ?

Ay possibility of conducting a test for us Mike ?
Not sure if it was you who mentioned 100in screen but the JVC has a max calibrated output of 1000 lumens. If 3 gain at 100in, you will have over 100ftL.
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Old 08-22-2015, 03:13 PM
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Here is the F3 on a piece of cardboard, against my JKP 1.3

I'm sure its an optical illusion, but the F3 seems to raise brightness in white more than in black.



Test pattern from my Lumagen...

FS: JKP Affinity .09 Fixed Frame 2.35 screen, 12.5 feet wide - PM for details, ad not posted yet

Thrang's Home Theater, For Now...
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Here is the F3 on a piece of cardboard, against my JKP 1.3

I'm sure its an optical illusion, but the F3 seems to raise brightness in white more than in black.



Test pattern from my Lumagen...
Interesting Thrang, yes it may very well be an illusion but the non-linear approach would be the way to go if technology allowed it.The F3 seems very interesting but a full screen test between day and night time is what I am waiting for, this is presuming that ambient light would still be present at night in the form of light emanated by typical living room ceiling or wall lights. Furthermore, it would be nice to hear from someone who eventually has a JVC/F3 combo. Does anyone know if specific iris settings can be saved as part of a settings profile on the JVC ? Mike could probably answer that.

This raises additional questions, would it be better to use a higher lumens (1500-1,800 lumens) projector with the F2 or a normal lumens (700 - 1000 lumens) projector with the F3 in terms of image fidelity ? The later is the one I find interesting.
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Old 08-23-2015, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
I'm sure its an optical illusion, but the F3 seems to raise brightness in white more than in black.
If you have a digital camera with manual aperture / shutter speed control, you can make some "measurements" to compare the contrast ratio. A colorimeter would be more accurate, but it is hard to measure a small area.
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Old 08-23-2015, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Here is the F3 on a piece of cardboard, against my JKP 1.3

I'm sure its an optical illusion, but the F3 seems to raise brightness in white more than in black.



Test pattern from my Lumagen...
Being able to compare the two screens right next to each other and not perceiving an increase in black levels is truly incredible.

That is very impressive, actual measurements aside.
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Old 08-23-2015, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
Well no, higher up the better it seems for the angular reflective benefits...
No, max gain is when the angle from the pj down to screen center equals the angle from screen center down to eyes.

Noah
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:29 AM
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So just to be clear since earlier in the thread it had been mentioned several times that PJ placement should be at the top of the screen...
That is not accurate?

If not what is the best way to sort out the angles? I seem to have misplaced my protracter
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Old 08-24-2015, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Hi Mike,

RE: F3 + JVC Projector

The adjustable iris that controls the light output would certainly solve the night time viewing problem. However, with the iris fully open for max brightness, do the JVC projectors have enough light output for daylight viewing ?

Ay possibility of conducting a test for us Mike ?
It depends on the room. I have a family room setup and with the number and size of uncovered windows in this room, it is very hard for any projector/screen combination to work. If I went with an F3.0 and a really high lumen projector, I could get it to work during the day, but then I would have problems at night. Now if you have some way of knocking off some of the incoming light, then it can work. The windows I have in my family room are:

2- 6' x 12.5'
2-2' x 6'
4-3.5' x 3.5'
1-8' x 16'
1- 5' x 7' french door with 15 lites
1-5' x 1' transom above french door.
Walls are gray, but so lite that they look white.

A 2.8 gain HP screen does not work in this room during the day. I like the windows, looking out to the woods and the lake, so I am not covering them. Luckily, I have a dedicated room, so that I do not have to cover the windows.

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Old 08-24-2015, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
No, max gain is when the angle from the pj down to screen center equals the angle from screen center down to eyes.
Correct.

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Old 08-24-2015, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
So just to be clear since earlier in the thread it had been mentioned several times that PJ placement should be at the top of the screen...
That is not accurate?

If not what is the best way to sort out the angles? I seem to have misplaced my protracter

For angular reflective screens like this you would place it at the top of the screen usually. You could place it lower on a table, but that would depend on your screen location and eye level. I posted more on it here: Microlite Optical Screen
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Old 08-24-2015, 01:18 PM
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OK, so I take it that you get less gain, when not in perfect alignment. For example:

* 9' ceiling
* 110" diagonal screen
* Lens and screen lined up about 27"-28" from ceiling to center of lens (assuming 24" extension rod for projector mount)
* Bottom of screen is around 27" (give or take) from the floor
* Seating ear height is round 36"-42"

I like the screen position, because it is lower and will be more immersive. However, looks like I will give up some gain because the angle is not optimal. I'd probably need the screen at 36" to get the optimal gain, but then it won't be as immersive.

Does that sound right?

Dave
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Old 08-24-2015, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It depends on the room. I have a family room setup and with the number and size of uncovered windows in this room, it is very hard for any projector/screen combination to work. If I went with an F3.0 and a really high lumen projector, I could get it to work during the day, but then I would have problems at night. Now if you have some way of knocking off some of the incoming light, then it can work. The windows I have in my family room are:

2- 6' x 12.5'
2-2' x 6'
4-3.5' x 3.5'
1-8' x 16'
1- 5' x 7' french door with 15 lites
1-5' x 1' transom above french door.
Walls are gray, but so lite that they look white.

A 2.8 gain HP screen does not work in this room during the day. I like the windows, looking out to the woods and the lake, so I am not covering them. Luckily, I have a dedicated room, so that I do not have to cover the windows.
Very informative Mike, so would a JVC work in conjunction with an F3 Screen in your living room during the day or would you need a higher lumen projector than the JVC ? The thought of having the F3 with a PJ like Optoma HD91+ is also enticing because of the LED light source and the fact that it is long lasting. Have you had the opportunity to see both these projectors being used with the F3 ? I suppose the HD91+ does not have an iris to control light output like the JVC.

Please ignore my question in regards to the Optoma HD91+ (Just noticed the disappointing specs)

Last edited by Sam Ash; 08-24-2015 at 03:51 PM. Reason: Came across the specs of the Optoma HD91+
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Old 08-25-2015, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam Ash View Post
Very informative Mike, so would a JVC work in conjunction with an F3 Screen in your living room during the day or would you need a higher lumen projector than the JVC ? The thought of having the F3 with a PJ like Optoma HD91+ is also enticing because of the LED light source and the fact that it is long lasting. Have you had the opportunity to see both these projectors being used with the F3 ? I suppose the HD91+ does not have an iris to control light output like the JVC.

Please ignore my question in regards to the Optoma HD91+ (Just noticed the disappointing specs)
I just have too much light in this room to use the JVC during the day. This room has so much ambient light that a flat panel does not do great during the day.

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Old 08-25-2015, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
No, max gain is when the angle from the pj down to screen center equals the angle from screen center down to eyes.
Noah, so this sounds like it would also be OK to have the pj located as is optimally for an HP screen, i.e., about midway (or a bit above) of the screen height, projecting just over one's head. The two angles would then both be very small but about the same.
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