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post #211 of 429 Old 11-18-2011, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughman View Post

If one of the screens attributes is off-axis light rejection and a room suffers from off-axis light contamination onto the screen such as might be encountered from light bouncing off a wall, ceiling, or floor close to the screen then in practise the screens inherent qualities will help maintain the attributes you list.

Yes, exactly. It's all those caveats that are important. "better black levels and shadow detail" are not qualities inherent to the screen. Rather, characteristics of the screen can help one realize better black levels (and better ANSI) under certain conditions - depending on room reflectivity, the projector, picture settings, ambient light etc.

This is supposed to be a place were we educate ourselves about the science and realities of how our equipment works. Unless we make these distinctions, at least sometimes, people will not be educated, but instead will pick up fallacious concepts (which I don't think helps anyone).

The Stewart Firehawk has similar attributes as the HCHP screen, insofar as it is a darker substrate, has gain coating, rejects off axis light and aims the light toward the viewer (although in an angular reflective manner). So someone not understanding how projection works may want to say "The Firehawk will inherently give you deeper black levels, better shadow detail and better image depth."

Yet the image on my 1.3 gain white screen (Stewart ST-130) is better in all those respects (black level, shadow detail, image pop and depth) than on a projector demo I watched on Stewart Firehawk screen, last week.

Why? It has to do with the combination of screen, screen size, room reflectivity, projector, picture settings etc.

This would be puzzling if one had the misunderstanding that black levels and shadow detail were inherently better on a specialty darker screen (like the Firehawk or HCHP). But it makes complete sense when we understand that those PQ's aren't inherent to screens themselves, but to the combination of variables that we need to understand when setting up a projection system.

(BTW, the idea that dark specialty screens "inherently" produce deeper blacks and a more dimensional image seems so widespread that even people who do AV for a living can fall for it. For instance, a local large AV retailer/installer company had raved for quite a while about the image they were getting using the Black Diamond screens with their clients. They thought the screens made black levels and image depth look amazing, and they talked about this as if these were attributes of the screen itself. Then they came to my house and saw the JVC projector - a product they sell as well - in my room, on my regular 1.3 gain white screen and were completely blown away. Said they'd never seen anything quite like it in terms of pretty much all the PQ parameters and made them start re-thinking their views on screens again. Why? I have a room optimized to get the best out of the projected image...which reminded them that many of the qualities they were imparting to the Black Diamond screens weren't inherent to the screen, but were the result of all the variables of room/projector etc).

Hughman, I'm not telling you things you don't know, of course. I'm just making a pitch for the educational virtues of being more precise in how we talk about these things. At least occasionally I think it's worth untangling these concepts from the way many of us describe equipment on this forum.

Cheers,
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post #212 of 429 Old 11-18-2011, 01:36 PM
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given the same projector, environment, and screen would a darker screen not produce a deeper black?
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post #213 of 429 Old 11-18-2011, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpage View Post

given the same projector, environment, and screen would a darker screen not produce a deeper black?

But also a lesser white--just like having a dimmer projector.
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post #214 of 429 Old 11-18-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpage View Post

given the same projector, environment, and screen would a darker screen not produce a deeper black?

With the same projector settings it would for absolute black, but it gets a little complicated depending on things like whether talking about black when the whole screen is supposed to be black, or black in bright mixed images.

As an example of a case that might not be obvious as far as the effects on blacks, consider a screen with 1.0 gain against a screen that is the same in most ways except 2.0 gain and using a projector that has a lens iris (but not a dynamic iris) . If the images with the 1.0 gain screen are too dim to close the iris down then the brighter screen could actually end up with better absolute blacks at the same white level because closing an iris in the projector can improve the on/off CR (which by definition means darker absolute black for the same white level).

Years ago a Sharp projector with a High Power screen could give a good real world example of this since the bright mode for the projector could be a little more than 1000:1, while the dimmer high contrast mode could be close to 4000:1. In many setups the high contrast mode was just too dim for people if they didn't use a screen with gain and so they would have to give up deeper absolute blacks if they didn't go with a higher gain screen.

The High Contrast High Power should be one of the best screens out there for retaining ANSI CR (so retaining dark blacks in bright mixed images) to a viewer sitting in a high gain position in a room with reflections and rejecting off axis ambient light. For ANSI CR it has 2 properties to help, the directionality and the gray layer. Much like the Firehawk from years ago, except with retro-reflectivity in the High Power and a more aggressive gain layer.

The Optoma Graywolf was the best screen I've had for retaining ANSI CR, but the screen itself was very visible. The HCHP is much better in that regard and seems like a great screen for just the right setup. With the gain dropping even faster than the white HP as a person gets off angle it definitely has its limits though. I'll mention that as with the white HP I doubt there is some magic angle where the screen is all of a sudden unacceptable when it was acceptable a few degrees away. It is just a curve with drop-off.

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #215 of 429 Old 11-18-2011, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Interesting.. did you calibrate your projector off the screen using a high quality meter since installing the HCHP? It would be interesting to see how much if any the brightness needs to be change and if there is any major color shift.

I did need to change the color to 0 settings and I use Arts (RGB) settings from the review of the RS2 and did need to redo the gamma settings. Brightness 0 and contrast 5 seems to work best with the HCHP for me. Before with the HP color -9,contrast -2,brightness 4 and a different gamma setting.

I don't have a meter but the picture is richer and more film like with the HCHP.
Not a screen expert and don't know what these numbers mean in terms of
coming to your own conclusion but am very happy with my purchase.

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post #216 of 429 Old 11-22-2011, 08:27 PM
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After reading countless post on multiple forums on screens I have decided to get the HCHP screen. My questions is were can you buy this screen with the HCHP material, I havent found a retailer selling it. I have found plenty of retailers selling the HP but not the HCHP. If this has already been addressed I appoligize, I am new to the projector world as this will be my very first system. Thanks for your help.
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post #217 of 429 Old 11-22-2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJW03 View Post

After reading countless post on multiple forums on screens I have decided to get the HCHP screen. My questions is were can you buy this screen with the HCHP material, I havent found a retailer selling it. I have found plenty of retailers selling the HP but not the HCHP. If this has already been addressed I appoligize, I am new to the projector world as this will be my very first system. Thanks for your help.

I have bought 2 HP screens over the years from AVS--best prices I've ever seen, great service, and they take your order for whatever size and material you want.
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post #218 of 429 Old 11-23-2011, 12:14 PM
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I've also bought two HP's from AVS, service you can count on

Noah
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post #219 of 429 Old 11-23-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I've also bought two HP's from AVS, service you can count on

Just ordered this screen myself.. Moving from HP 2.8. Will post my impressions once the screen arrives. And while I trust and respect AVS, the price I received on this screen was significantly less than what AVS was asking.
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post #220 of 429 Old 11-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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Count me in as a soon to be owner. I went with a 133 inch HCHP. I have a dedicated theater room with a Panasonic AE-7000u. Hopefully it is a big improvement from my matte white elite screens screen.
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post #221 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 06:27 AM
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Hi,

Im about to buy one of these to go with the new epson 3010, im looking to get a 77 inch model and shelf mount it.

I asked about this to one sales guy to get a quote, this is what they told me:

"For a manual roller screen of this size I would advise you to steer clear of a high gain surface. The surface on a small roller screen will never be completely flat and this can cause noticeable variations in brightness in the image and possibly spoil your viewing pleasure"

is this true?
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post #222 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 06:34 AM
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My HCHP 120" is straight as an areo with no waves. The material is thick and heavy
should not have a problem.

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post #223 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 07:22 AM
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my celing is 7 foot 4 inches high.
if i mount my projector to the ceiling will i lose much gain ?
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post #224 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 08:43 AM
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Just installed my new da-lite high contrast high power screen. Two words: Awesome Sauce. I have a Panasonic AW-7000 projector. The image is brighter, clearer and has much more pop than my old matte white screen. I can light up a 133 inch screen with the lamp on eco and the picture set to rec 709 and the image is bright and clear. Another big plus is that 3d is much much brighter when compared to my old screen. If your viewing set up fits it's limitations I highly recommend it!
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post #225 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksbarnz View Post

Just installed my new da-lite high contrast high power screen. Two words: Awesome Sauce. I have a Panasonic AW-7000 projector. The image is brighter, clearer and has much more pop than my old matte white screen. I can light up a 133 inch screen with the lamp on eco and the picture set to rec 709 and the image is bright and clear. Another big plus is that 3d is much much brighter when compared to my old screen. If your viewing set up fits it's limitations I highly recommend it!

Happy for you and could of not said it any better

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post #226 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

I have just ordered one and will write up a comparison to a normal 2.4 HP in a white livingroom when it arrives. That should be in two weeks or so.

have you had a chance to review it?
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post #227 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksbarnz View Post

Just installed my new da-lite high contrast high power screen. Two words: Awesome Sauce. I have a Panasonic AW-7000 projector. The image is brighter, clearer and has much more pop than my old matte white screen. I can light up a 133 inch screen with the lamp on eco and the picture set to rec 709 and the image is bright and clear. Another big plus is that 3d is much much brighter when compared to my old screen. If your viewing set up fits it's limitations I highly recommend it!

How are the black levels compared to the matte white?
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post #228 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore View Post


How are the black levels compared to the matte white?

blacks seem much better to me. One thing I noticed is that this screen really limits the light reflecting off the walls. Before with the white screen the walls would light up. Now it is much more of a focused beam of light to my theater seats and a lot less light scatter.
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post #229 of 429 Old 12-06-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eishg View Post

Hi,

Im about to buy one of these to go with the new epson 3010, im looking to get a 77 inch model and shelf mount it.

I asked about this to one sales guy to get a quote, this is what they told me:

"For a manual roller screen of this size I would advise you to steer clear of a high gain surface. The surface on a small roller screen will never be completely flat and this can cause noticeable variations in brightness in the image and possibly spoil your viewing pleasure"

is this true?

With a screen that small and the 3010 being a light canon you might find the HCHP makes the image too bright. Have you looked into a low gain gray screen? Maybe the high contrast cinema vision?
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post #230 of 429 Old 12-07-2011, 06:51 PM
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I am having a hard time deciding between these three (2.8 vs the two 2.4s) I plan to have a 110" wide scope screen, with both projector (undecided atm, probably a JVC or Panasonic) and seats at 17'. The screen will be almost touching the ceiling and the two walls on either side - walls and ceiling are all off-white.

Seating will be a 7' wide couch, with most of the viewing 4' wide.

The projector will be about 14" above eye level and 10" above the bottom of the screen, with eye level thus below the screen (sometimes even more so for minors).

My biggest issues are the walls (otherwise light controlled room), and the seating width and height.

thanks in advance
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post #231 of 429 Old 12-09-2011, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eishg View Post

have you had a chance to review it?

I have received the screen, but been too busy to really write anything up.

The main difference I noted compared to HP2.4 was that the colors seemed to be more vivid. I guess it can have something to do with less reflections bouncing back on the screen and washing out (or diluting) the colors on the screen.

Black level wise, I can't say I notice much difference. However, this is from memory alone, which makes it a bit unreliable. No night and day difference at least. Maybe the walls and ceiling being lighted up more from the HP2.4 aids in keeping my pupil dilated and this helps perceiving dark greys as blacks. I guess a measurement would show that I in reality have better blacks on screen.

The viewing angles are not as bad as I have feared from watching the screen sample. The sample indicated that the picture would be unwatchable more than a meter or so to the side, but it isn't so. Even sitting far off to the side produces a watchable image, albeit far less punchy and bright. From my 3.5 m viewing distance I would say four people could fit more or less in the sweet spot, another two with dimmer views but still absolutely OK PQ and two more with less enjoyable picture on the far sides. I guess not having anything to compare (as you do with a screen sample) makes you less sensitive to any brightness drop with the full screen.

Even though it directs light it still throws around quite a lot so the ceiling and walls light up quite a bit. It's nothing like a back-projection TV where the image almost disappears when viewing from the side.

Homogeneity is great from all viewing angles and distances. No hotspotting detected. The screen structure is very fine, but visible in bright material. However, MUCH less so than for instance a Firehawk.

All in all I'm very satisfied.

I will try to take some pics with different screen materials as comparison when I get the time.

BR
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post #232 of 429 Old 12-09-2011, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post


I have received the screen, but been too busy to really write anything up.

The main difference I noted compared to HP2.4 was that the colors seemed to be more vivid. I guess it can have something to do with less reflections bouncing back on the screen and washing out (or diluting) the colors on the screen.

Black level wise, I can't say I notice much difference. However, this is from memory alone, which makes it a bit unreliable. No night and day difference at least. Maybe the walls and ceiling being lighted up more from the HP2.4 aids in keeping my pupil dilated and this helps perceiving dark greys as blacks. I guess a measurement would show that I in reality have better blacks on screen.

The viewing angles are not as bad as I have feared from watching the screen sample. The sample indicated that the picture would be unwatchable more than a meter or so to the side, but it isn't so. Even sitting far off to the side produces a watchable image, albeit far less punchy and bright. From my 3.5 m viewing distance I would say four people could fit more or less in the sweet spot, another two with dimmer views but still absolutely OK PQ and two more with less enjoyable picture on the far sides. I guess not having anything to compare (as you do with a screen sample) makes you less sensitive to any brightness drop with the full screen.

Even though it directs light it still throws around quite a lot so the ceiling and walls light up quite a bit. It's nothing like a back-projection TV where the image almost disappears when viewing from the side.

Homogeneity is great from all viewing angles and distances. No hotspotting detected. The screen structure is very fine, but visible in bright material. However, MUCH less so than for instance a Firehawk.

All in all I'm very satisfied.

I will try to take some pics with different screen materials as comparison when I get the time.

BR

Excellent review. You said the HCHP reflects less light to the floor and ceiling than a normal 2.4 HP. How much less? Can you estimate a % improvement? I know my 2.8 HP reflects lots of light.

You stated the HCHP has a very fine screen structure. Do you think it's fine enough to not impede the resolution of a 4k projector?

This last question is directed to anyone on the board who knows the answer : Will a 1.0 or 1.3 angular reflective screen light up the room walls and ceiling less or more than a retroreflective HP?

Thanks
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post #233 of 429 Old 12-09-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post

Will a 1.0 or 1.3 angular reflective screen light up the room walls and ceiling less or more than a retroreflective HP?

More..
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post #234 of 429 Old 12-11-2011, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292 View Post

As far as black diamond which I sell is the light rejection king but I don't
like the increased artifacts intoduced into the screen by the 1.4BD.

can you (or others) comment a bit more on this? i'm replacing a 1.4 g3 bd screen now (doesn't play well with my pj in 3d, plus want a bit bigger screen) and am trying to decide between a hp or a hphc... one of the things i'd like to eliminate is the visible screen structure of the bd in bright scenes... while it's not overly bothersome, i wouldn't mind it going away on the new screen... side note to rich: you were right about this...

furthermore, if anyone would like to comment on "which one"... i can position my pj "properly" for the screen, it's easy enough to drop my shelf a couple feet and get it in the proper plane... also, i only have 2 seats (reclining couch), so i do not think viewing cone should be an issue...

i use my pj for everything... sports and movies only (and mythbusters )...

the screenwall and the front 6 feet of my room is black, including ceiling (rest of it is grey walls with white ceiling)... blackout curtains over windows and door... i have track lights over the seating position that i use when watching sports, varying from "full on" to "pretty dim" (usually "reasonably dim" most of the time) depending on my mood, i'm not fond of sitting in the dark for that... movies watched in darkness...

i'm leaning towards the high contrast due to the "sports in light" requirement, and that is at least 75% of my usage...

i have some samples on the way, but wouldn't mind some "real world experience" input from owners...

tia.

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my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #235 of 429 Old 12-11-2011, 07:54 PM
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I think what you see in this thread is all there is.. HCHP just came out this year.. and anyone on here that bought it posted here..
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post #236 of 429 Old 12-11-2011, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

From my 3.5 m viewing distance I would say four people could fit more or less in the sweet spot, another two with dimmer views but still absolutely OK PQ and two more with less enjoyable picture on the far sides. I guess not having anything to compare (as you do with a screen sample) makes you less sensitive to any brightness drop with the full screen.

After having played with the viewing angles one more time I think I would have to adjust my comment slightly. Three people in width in the sweet spot (in a sofa), two extra with less bright image, and people further out than that will get a watchable but dull image. You can of course fit more people in the sweet spot if you have several rows.
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post #237 of 429 Old 12-12-2011, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

can you (or others) comment a bit more on this? i'm replacing a 1.4 g3 bd screen now (doesn't play well with my pj in 3d, plus want a bit bigger screen) and am trying to decide between a hp or a hphc... one of the things i'd like to eliminate is the visible screen structure of the bd in bright scenes... while it's not overly bothersome, i wouldn't mind it going away on the new screen... side note to rich: you were right about this...

The screen structure is the same on the HP2.4 and the HCHP. And it's very subtle, you can't compare it to a BD.

With only two seats, I would go for the HCHP. You won't need the wider viewing cone and you would get more vivid colors.

Quote:


furthermore, if anyone would like to comment on "which one"... i can position my pj "properly" for the screen, it's easy enough to drop my shelf a couple feet and get it in the proper plane... also, i only have 2 seats (reclining couch), so i do not think viewing cone should be an issue...

The HP is a bit less fuzzy with placement, but if you only have two seats you won't have any trouble with either.

Quote:


i use my pj for everything... sports and movies only (and mythbusters )...

the screenwall and the front 6 feet of my room is black, including ceiling (rest of it is grey walls with white ceiling)... blackout curtains over windows and door... i have track lights over the seating position that i use when watching sports, varying from "full on" to "pretty dim" (usually "reasonably dim" most of the time) depending on my mood, i'm not fond of sitting in the dark for that... movies watched in darkness...

i'm leaning towards the high contrast due to the "sports in light" requirement, and that is at least 75% of my usage...

Neither are good in ambient light. The light rejection is about the same as an ordinary white screen (i.e. none). Only difference is that you get a brighter image as if you were having a brighter projector.

Still, watching mythbusters or sports lights up my room quite a lot so there is no sitting in the dark with this kind of program material in my room at least. Someone with very dark walls and ceiling might have a problem however. I don't think it will be an issue for you. The screen will light up your room quite a bit and you can also use the track lights if they're directed away from the screen.
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post #238 of 429 Old 12-12-2011, 05:19 AM
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^^^

thanks for the detailed reply... food for thought...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #239 of 429 Old 12-12-2011, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Neither are good in ambient light. The light rejection is about the same as an ordinary white screen (i.e. none). Only difference is that you get a brighter image as if you were having a brighter projector.

If the unwanted light is coming from an off-angle and the projected light from a good angle for the viewer then the high power screens should do a fair amount better than an ordinary white screen as far as rejecting that light (maintaining the contrast ratio that the projector puts out). Of course, it is easy to have too much ambient light for just about any screen to handle, although some have extremely low gain for some angles and so do well at rejecting light from there.

For reflected light from the screen the HCHP should be one of the best screens around for maintaining ANSI CR in a light colored room when sitting in a good viewing position for it, since the screen has both directionality and a gray layer to help reject those reflections when they come back to the screen.

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post #240 of 429 Old 12-12-2011, 06:48 PM
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Just to add to Darins post, here are two images I posted on page two of this thread showing the potential ambient light rejection attributes of the HCHP as compared to a HP 2.8, HP 2.4, da-mat, all taped to a 1 ish gain screen. The HCHP is the smaller central screen, 2.8 just above, 2.4 just below and the da-mat lower left. Just want to illustrate, again, that statements such as Drexlers do not accurately repesentative the HCHP's ambient light rejecting attributes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Neither are good in ambient light. The light rejection is about the same as an ordinary white screen (i.e. none). Only difference is that you get a brighter image as if you were having a brighter projector

The photo with lights on is with a total of 6 on high, two up front you can see in the photo, two mid room, and two in the back corners. The pj is off, no flash is used therefore all light reflected from the screens is ambient emanating from around the room with weighting to the front lights.
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