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post #1 of 429 Old 05-13-2011, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.da-lite.com/products/sele...viewMode=front

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High Contrast High Power


This revolutionary screen surface provides a unique combination of high gain along with contrast enhancement due to its grey base and highly reflective top surface. The result is a screen surface with moderate viewing angles and the ability to reflect light back towards the source. These characteristics make this surface an excellent choice for environments with a moderate amount of ambient light and a projector which is placed on a table top or in the same horizontal viewing plane as the audience. Flame retardant and mildew resistant. Viewing Angle: 20° Gain: 2.4

...discuss

I figure rather then mess up the other HP thread even further , keep things here?
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post #2 of 429 Old 05-13-2011, 01:12 PM
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Thanks for the find.

So, they finally did it.

Same gain as the regular HP and the necessarily narrow viewing angle.

The questions that come to my mind are whether this makes uniformity an issue, and how much improvement there is in intrascene contrast in rooms with light colored surfaces.

Noah
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post #3 of 429 Old 05-13-2011, 02:09 PM
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I suppose this type of screen fills a need, but it seems like a little too much band-aid for projector shortcomings. I'd rather go with more projector output, back off a little on the gain, get a better gray scale, a little larger viewing cone, less hot-spotting, and more uniformity.
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post #4 of 429 Old 05-15-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

I suppose this type of screen fills a need, but it seems like a little too much band-aid for projector shortcomings.

To me it's more of a bandaid for a non-dedicated room, which many of us have.

Noah
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post #5 of 429 Old 05-15-2011, 03:55 PM
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I have samples of 2.4 HC-2.4 and Silver lite 2.5 on the way.. will stick them all up on the 2.8 and see what they look like.. I know what 2.4 looks like all to well.. but some day I may have to replace the 2.8.. what to do.. what to do? If my antique camera can see the same thing my eyes do, I will post some screen shots just to show difference in brightness ..

Doug

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post #6 of 429 Old 05-15-2011, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

If my antique camera can see the same thing my eyes do, I will post some screen shots just to show difference in brightness ..

Nothing wrong with adjusting the images afterwards to make them look lioke what you saw.

In fact, that may be the only way to get blacks to look the same, even with a good camera.

Noah
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post #7 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 07:30 AM
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Im just about to complete an order for a 106" HC Highpower now, I will post back my personal view as soon as I get it, It may take a little longer as I have to bring it into Mexico... I will be using it with my sony Pearl.. a little extra brightness will be most welcome. I am re-arranging my set-up for the retro reflective type of screen.
regards
g
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post #8 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

To me it's more of a bandaid for a non-dedicated room, which many of us have.

A bright punchy projector will overcome shortcomings of non-dedicated rooms and will clear the way for screens which are less compromised by undesirable attributes. Getting such a projector at a reasonable cost used to be a challenge, but there are a number of options now (DPI, SIM2, Runco) for less than $8K.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

A bright punchy projector will overcome shortcomings of non-dedicated rooms and will clear the way for screens which are less compromised by undesirable attributes. Getting such a projector at a reasonable cost used to be a challenge, but there are a number of options now (DPI, SIM2, Runco) for less than $8K.

Good options too!! Before we used to have to sacrifice image quality for brighness. Now you get a nice bright image and it looks good!

Benito
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post #10 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to see this as well. Think I'll just wait for you guys to get your samples.
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post #11 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
I suppose this type of screen fills a need, but it seems like a little too much band-aid for projector shortcomings. I'd rather go with more projector output, back off a little on the gain, get a better gray scale, a little larger viewing cone, less hot-spotting, and more uniformity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post
A bright punchy projector will overcome shortcomings of non-dedicated rooms and will clear the way for screens which are less compromised by undesirable attributes. Getting such a projector at a reasonable cost used to be a challenge, but there are a number of options now (DPI, SIM2, Runco) for less than $8K.
What screen(s) would you suggest to pair with one of those projectors in a non-dedicated room?

-thx
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post #12 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 01:33 PM
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Colour me interested. My RS20 is in a pretty well treated room - dark walls, carpets, velvet panelling around the screen/ceiling - and i'm not happy with the black levels. I shall order samples asap!
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post #13 of 429 Old 05-16-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

A bright punchy projector will overcome shortcomings of non-dedicated rooms and will clear the way for screens which are less compromised by undesirable attributes.

The brightness helps combat ambient light, but not the reduction in intrascene CR caused by re-reflected light that ; a projector that's twice as bright has twice as much of it.

The only way to combat that is nonreflective room surfaces.

Some of us can't/won't do that, leaving a directional screen as the only option.

Noah
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post #14 of 429 Old 05-17-2011, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gareth_davies View Post

Im just about to complete an order for a 106" HC Highpower now, I will post back my personal view as soon as I get it, It may take a little longer as I have to bring it into Mexico... I will be using it with my sony Pearl.. a little extra brightness will be most welcome. I am re-arranging my set-up for the retro reflective type of screen.
regards
g

I'd be interested in how you get on with the screen, Gareth. Are you familar with the standard high power material, or the Firehawk G3? I'm most interested in how this new material compares with those (I currently have 2.8 HP). If it gives the benefits of a grey screen without any odd sheen and the extra punch from the gain i'll be all over it
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post #15 of 429 Old 05-17-2011, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete View Post

A bright punchy projector will overcome shortcomings of non-dedicated rooms and will clear the way for screens which are less compromised by undesirable attributes. Getting such a projector at a reasonable cost used to be a challenge, but there are a number of options now (DPI, SIM2, Runco) for less than $8K.

Brightness helps out with the parts of the image that are projected. Black isn't projected.

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post #16 of 429 Old 05-17-2011, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigsMovies View Post

What screen(s) would you suggest to pair with one of those projectors in a non-dedicated room?

-thx

The Stewart FireHawk G3 would be a good match. You get 60 degree viewing cone, a little bit of gain, gray substrate to boost contrast, and the optical coating rejects reflected light from side walls.
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The brightness helps combat ambient light, but not the reduction in intrascene CR caused by re-reflected light that ; a projector that's twice as bright has twice as much of it.

The only way to combat that is nonreflective room surfaces.

Some of us can't/won't do that, leaving a directional screen as the only option.

Agreed...but extremely directional is not ideal. Moderation should be the goal.
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Brightness helps out with the parts of the image that are projected. Black isn't projected.

Understood...which is why a projector with good Dynamic Black and gray screen material are needed.
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post #17 of 429 Old 05-18-2011, 02:00 PM
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I've got a 2x2 sample on the way.

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post #18 of 429 Old 05-18-2011, 08:22 PM
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Today I received samples of the new HC HP, and also the new white HP (4 pieces each) and have been looking at them in comparison to my 4 yr old HP2.8. (Only reason I'm thinking of a new screen is that I'm interested in going larger--from 110x62 to 128x72.) My room has no external light and has black fabric on the ceiling and side walls about about 7 ft form the screen wall, so wall reflections are not really a concern. (And the back wall has dark drapes all across--which is REALLY imp for the HP, as I think everybody knows.) I put up samples pieces of HP2.8 (which I had from earlier days), HP2.4, and HC HP2.4, all at the left and right extremes of where my proposed 128"W screen would be. My pj (RS20) is on a stand about a ft above my head and about 2 ft behind it; I sit ~ 1.07 SW from the screen (50 deg wide viewing angle).

Observations:

1. I put up a full screen 100% IRE test pattern, and the HP2.8 is noticeably brighter--not dramatically, but noticeably--and even at the extreme L and R is uniformly bright over my whole screen; wish they still made the 2.8!

2. The two new 2.4 HP's, gray and white, looked very similar in brightness--which they should, of course, since they are both supposed to have 2.4 gain--but maybe the white one was ever so slightly brighter. The narrower viewing angle of the HC HP (which is mildly gray on looking at it) is not an issue for me since the pj is so close to my head, and it's basically just me looking at it (my wife unfortunately died this past Dec).

3. Colors look nice and basically the same on all three (except the 2.8 being brighter), and I presume any color shifts will be taken care of when one calibrates.

3. I don't see any point in getting the HC version unless you are worried about reflections from white walls/ceiling, or have ambient light from the side. I can really see essentially no diff between it and the white HP, and the latter presumably does have a wider viewing cone. Again, for me the narrow cone is no problem, but I don't see what the HC does for me. As I said, I would prefer the HP2.8.

Will be interested hear what others think when they get their samples.
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post #19 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 04:01 AM
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Thanks millerwill,

I was hoping that the HCHP was going to be a darker gray and an overall lower effective gain but what we have is still appears to be interesting.

I am a past High Power screen owner. I like many of its qualities. One thing that surprised me when I switched to a Black Diamond was how much the High Power lit up my room in spite of the fact that I had treated many surfaces. This really affected brighter scenes - the brighter the scene the more the washout. The HCHP as it is may be a good balance between something like a Black Diamond and the classic HP. Maybe it is good for dark rooms that suffer from reflected light issues.

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post #20 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post
Today I received samples of the new HC HP, and also the new white HP (4 pieces each) and have been looking at them in comparison to my 4 yr old HP2.8. (Only reason I'm thinking of a new screen is that I'm interested in going larger--from 110x62 to 128x72.) My room has no external light and has black fabric on the ceiling and side walls about about 7 ft form the screen wall, so wall reflections are not really a concern. (And the back wall has dark drapes all across--which is REALLY imp for the HP, as I think everybody knows.) I put up samples pieces of HP2.8 (which I had from earlier days), HP2.4, and HC HP2.4, all at the left and right extremes of where my proposed 128"W screen would be. My pj (RS20) is on a stand about a ft above my head and about 2 ft behind it; I sit ~ 1.07 SW from the screen (50 deg wide viewing angle).

Observations:

1. I put up a full screen 100% IRE test pattern, and the HP2.8 is noticeably brighter--not dramatically, but noticeably--and even at the extreme L and R is uniformly bright over my whole screen; wish they still made the 2.8!

2. The two new 2.4 HP's, gray and white, looked very similar in brightness--which they should, of course, since they are both supposed to have 2.4 gain--but maybe the white one was ever so slightly brighter. The narrower viewing angle of the HC HP (which is mildly gray on looking at it) is not an issue for me since the pj is so close to my head, and it's basically just me looking at it (my wife unfortunately died this past Dec).

3. Colors look nice and basically the same on all three (except the 2.8 being brighter), and I presume any color shifts will be taken care of when one calibrates.

3. I don't see any point in getting the HC version unless you are worried about reflections from white walls/ceiling, or have ambient light from the side. I can really see essentially no diff between it and the white HP, and the latter presumably does have a wider viewing cone. Again, for me the narrow cone is no problem, but I don't see what the HC does for me. As I said, I would prefer the HP2.8.

Will be interested hear what others think when they get their samples.
I plan the same basic test as you when my samples arrive, but with a couple of lights on. My HP 2.8 works well with a few up facing floor lamps on but the 2.4 is not as good. I was wondering now the new HC 2.4 would fair in that situation. If you still have them up, could you flip on a few lights to compare?
Thanks

Doug

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post #21 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 04:51 AM
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Thanks for the update, millerwall. Did you notice any improvement re. black levels with the new material?
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post #22 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 08:10 AM
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Thanks for the comments.

Lawguy: Interesting thoughts. Yes, my room too is certainly not perfect, but without having a full HCHP gray screen, it's hard to tell how much reflections might be minimized by it. Since brightness is not reduced by it, and since the narrower viewing angle is no problem for me, it might indeed be the better choice just in case the effects you describe are important.

BTW, did you keep the Black Diamond? (Though this is irrelevant for me since they don't come in large enough sizes for my interest.)

airscapes: I look forward to hearing your report. I have no overhead lights in my room, but a couple of halogen lamps with metallic shades that are quite focused and used for reading, etc., at the two recliners that constitute my 'HT' seating (except for a couch along a side wall). As usually oriented, the light from these lamps does not hit the screen directly, but tonight I'll flip the shades around to see how the screen samples perform.

Warbie: Since the gain of the HP and HCHP are the same, I can't see how the black (or white) level of them could be different. It seems to me that the only difference between the two is how reflected light is handled, and there is essentially no reflected light relevant for the black level.
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post #23 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

BTW, did you keep the Black Diamond? (Though this is irrelevant for me since they don't come in large enough sizes for my interest.)

Yup. I am a big fan. I did a write up here for Mark Petersen's site.

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post #24 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Yup. I am a big fan. I did a write up here for Mark Petersen's site.

So your room has no external light and no white walls/ceiling, and you still find the BD gives a more dynamic (or however you would describe it) pic than the old HP? I read your link carefully.
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post #25 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

So your room has no external light and no white walls/ceiling, and you still find the BD gives a more dynamic (or however you would describe it) pic than the old HP? I read your link carefully.

Yes. It comes as the expense of: (1) limited screen size (not bigger than 100" for a .8 BD) (2) visible screen texture is sometimes present (it would not be with the HP) and (3) limited viewing angles - differences in brightness become more apparent as you move off axis (not a concern in my room). So, there are tradeoffs. For me, the trade offs are more than worth it (comparing a 106" HP to the 100" .8 BD).

Edit: I have treated the walls in back of the screen, the ceiling and on the sides - the areas where the reflections were. But, there are some areas were the ceiling and walls remain white.

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post #26 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Warbie: Since the gain of the HP and HCHP are the same, I can't see how the black (or white) level of them could be different. It seems to me that the only difference between the two is how reflected light is handled, and there is essentially no reflected light relevant for the black level.

I might be misunderstanding something basic, but when I put a Firehawk G3 sample on my old 1.0 gain white screen the blacks on the Firehawk were considerably darker despite it putting out a brighter image.
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post #27 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Yes. It comes as the expense of: (1) limited screen size (not bigger than 100" for a .8 BD) (2) visible screen texture is sometimes present (it would not be with the HP) and (3) limited viewing angles - differences in brightness become more apparent as you move off axis (not a concern in my room). So, there are tradeoffs. For me, the trade offs are more than worth it (comparing a 106" HP to the 100" .8 BD).

Edit: I have treated the walls in back of the screen, the ceiling and on the sides - the areas where the reflections were. But, there are some areas were the ceiling and walls remain white.

Well I'm definitely going with a larger screen (if I do anything*), so the BD is out. Maybe, as you suggest, the HCHP would be a good compromise between it and the HP. Too bad it's not possible to see how a full screen of this material performs. The sample pieces are useful, but really don't reveal the complete story.

*I am pondering whether going from 110x62 to 128x72 is enough of an increase to make it worth the hassle (and $). I get the same viewing angle from 11ft with a 128"W screen as from 9.5ft with my present 110"W one. Viewing the present one from 9.5ft has the immersion, etc., that I'm liking, but this puts the seat in an awkward location; viewing back at 11ft would be much more reasonable layout-wise, thus the desire for the larger screen. And if an improved screen material is also possible, that would enhance the argument for replacement.
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post #28 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warbie View Post

I might be misunderstanding something basic, but when I put a Firehawk G3 sample on my old 1.0 gain white screen the blacks on the Firehawk were considerably darker despite it putting out a brighter image.

I could very well be the one missing something! I'm just assuming that if the gain is 2.4, then all light is 2.4x brighter coming off the screen, be it at 10% or 100% IRE. Your observation seems to contradict this, so I would appreciate being 'illuminated' by more knowledgeable persons.
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post #29 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Too bad it's not possible to see how a full screen of this material performs. The sample pieces are useful, but really don't reveal the complete story.

True. Small samples only tell you a little bit.

You may also want to check out the Firehawk. It is higher gain and also would probably improved on screen contrast over the HP. One thing that I realized is that although the HP was very bright, it was probably too bright for my 106" screen and, as I mentioned, resulted in image harming reflections. The .8 BD is much dimmer but I really don't miss the brightness because the picture is much better overall.

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post #30 of 429 Old 05-19-2011, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

True. Small samples only tell you a little bit.

You may also want to check out the Firehawk. It is higher gain and also would probably improved on screen contrast over the HP. One thing that I realized is that although the HP was very bright, it was probably too bright for my 106" screen and, as I mentioned, resulted in image harming reflections. The .8 BD is much dimmer but I really don't miss the brightness because the picture is much better overall.

I understand that the FH has to be at the longer end of the throw range, which won't work for me. And the HCHP has about twice its gain, is retro-reflective, both of which are good for my setup.
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