120" screen in a room with 8ft ceiling - crazy? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 58 Old 07-15-2012, 10:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I had been looking at installing a 110" Elite CineTension 2. I want to get the biggest possible screen I can. I've done the math and 110" fits very comfortably in my room. I was pricing screens and the 110" is a bit hard to get. The 120" is easy to get (it's on Amazon) and the price is cheaper than what I can currently find the 110" for. So am I crazy to attempt this? The projector is going to be the Epson 3010. The room is 17 1/2 feet long and 12 1/2 feet wide. The screen is going to drop down in front of my entertainment center. The entertainment center is out about 2 ft from the wall so the screen will be mounted about 6" in front of that. Throw distance looks OK in the Epson's manual. I figured the screen with the case and mounts could a minimum of 7" from the ceiling, and the bottom of the viewing area would be about 30" or so from the floor.

If I could pull this off it would be epic. This is my first projector setup and I want it to be awesome. Any words of wisdom from those with more experience than me would be much appreciated!

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post #2 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 06:03 AM
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I have a 120" wide 16:9 fixed screen.

What will your viewing distance be? That is the key. Check the angles etc.

To give you an idea, my ceiling is at 100" and my width is only 131" I think the bottom image is about 20" off the floor.

My ideal viewing distance is ~12' for 2D, closer for 3D.

I went from a 106" diagonal to this 138" diagonal (120" wide) when I wanted to get the AT screen. It is large... really large... and awesome. This is what I settled on while throwing various image sizes on the wall to determine size... that, and I can't physically fit a larger screen in the room!
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post #3 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 07:03 AM
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I'm a fan of Da-Lite's High Power material. Having some gain is especially welcome watching 3D since shutter glasses block most of the light. Images viewed on a standard matte white look dim & drab to my eye after viewing them on an HP. If you can accomodate the HP's requirement to keep the projector near eye level it's worth investigating. Contact the screen manufacturers you're considering & request fabric samples before you purchase.

AV Science carries Elite and Da-Lite screens. Once you've decided on a manufacturer and fabric, I recommend that you give Mike Garrett or one of the other AV Science sales folks a call to place your order. You'll get a good price and they'll go to bat for you with the manufacturer if your screen has problems.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/773065/high-power-a-review-part-1/0_40
https://shop.avscience.com/crm.asp?action=contactus
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post #4 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 10:09 AM
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where will your speakers go?
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post #5 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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The screen is 120" diagonal, 104.5 " wide. So optimal viewing distance is supposed to be 156" or 13'. I wouldn't mind being closer. We usually sit somewhat close to the screen in the theater, last row of the first section in our IMAX theater. I guess that's about row 10 or so. I don't mind moving my head a bit for the action. All theaters are a bit different. I can move the couch as far back as needed (I don't think the wife will care that much), well, up to 14' which would be up against the wall and under the pj. I've sort of been given the OK by the wife to do this. If it turns out awesome then she'll be thrilled. Angle is straight on. It's just the wife and I (no kids). We've thought about ditching the couch and getting 2 nice leather recliners. We do have some ambient light but it's been blocked and I can do more if I need to. We also don't really watch movies until dark.

The Epson 3010 is very bright, sometimes I see it called a light cannon in reviews. Even with 3D it's supposed to be bright.
The Da-Lite screens look nice but I didn't see any pull down screens from them. Plus they are a bit pricey. The 120" Elite screen has 1.1 gain and can be had for under $1000 from Amazon. The 110" will cost more than that.
I've thought about using the AV Science guys but that Amazon price seems hard to beat.

I'll have about 20" on either side of the screen for the front speakers, center will go below the screen.

This morning I noticed a used 3010 on B&H for around $1000. This would void Epson's warranty though. There's a place called Buy Squad that has a great price on the 3010. I've never heard or dealt with them before. Seller rating around the net looked OK though. Decisions, decisions...

EDIT- Grabbed the 3010 from B&H. It's a gamble but life is full of risks.tongue.gif

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post #6 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 05:40 PM
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120" with 8' ceiling crazy........hell no, I have a 7' ceiling with a 174".

Anthem Statement D2v3D, Paradigm Sub 2, Paradigm S8s with C5, Anthem Statement M1 Amps, 174" AT Scope Screen, Epson 6010 3D Projector
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post #7 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

120" with 8' ceiling crazy........hell no, I have a 7' ceiling with a 174".
eek.gif

How do you have this set up?..?... or wait, better yet, pics? Is that it in your avy?

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post #8 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neveser View Post

The Da-Lite screens look nice but I didn't see any pull down screens from them. Plus they are a bit pricey. The 120" Elite screen has 1.1 gain and can be had for under $1000 from Amazon.

I've thought about using the AV Science guys but that Amazon price seems hard to beat.

Do a search for Da-Lite part number 79892. (Model C with CSR, 119 Inch Diag., High Power fabric) It's a manual pull down model and I'm guessing the AV Science folks would quote you a price well under the $1000 figure you're talking about. Whether you prefer the Da-Lite or an Elite, you won't know if AV Science can beat the Amazon price if you don't ask...
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post #9 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Do a search for Da-Lite part number 79892. (Model C with CSR, 119 Inch Diag., High Power fabric) It's a manual pull down model and I'm guessing the AV Science folks would quote you a price well under the $1000 figure you're talking about. Whether you prefer the Da-Lite or an Elite, you won't know if AV Science can beat the Amazon price if you don't ask...

Wow, nice gain on that screen. From the description it doesn't sound like it would work out for me though. The projector will be ceiling mounted. It is certainly cheaper than the Eilte screen. I did some research and asked about the non-tensioned screens and what I found was that they will develop wrinkles at some point. The 2 year mark seemed to be the magic number. I did email Mike today and he told me was traveling at the moment but he'd check into it for me this evening.

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post #10 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 10:51 PM
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Most screens are vinyl and do benefit from tensioning. The HP screens are fiberglass and can't be tensioned.

Hope you find something that works out well for you. Good luck with your new home theater!
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post #11 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 11:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrich3 View Post

Most screens are vinyl and do benefit from tensioning. The HP screens are fiberglass and can't be tensioned.
I'm not sure what the Elite screen is made from. All I do know is that it's CineWhite material with a 1.1 gain.
Do the fiberglass screens wrinkle with time?
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Hope you find something that works out well for you. Good luck with your new home theater!
Thank you! I need it. biggrin.gif

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post #12 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 11:28 PM
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CineWhite is vinyl. I haven't had any wrinkle problems with my HP 2.4 (almost 2 years old). Some folks have reported seeing waves in their HP screens while the room lights are on, but this is rarely noticed during lights-off viewing due to the retro-reflective nature of the beast.
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post #13 of 58 Old 07-16-2012, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
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How is your projector mounted? From reading the description of that Da-Lite screen, it made it sound like the projector needed to be mounted nearer the center of the screen. The 3010 has to be mounted on the ceiling or sitting on a table (which wouldn't work out well for a large screen size).

Why did you go with a screen that has such a high gain? Ambient light or the fact that it looks nice?

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post #14 of 58 Old 07-17-2012, 07:22 AM
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For the HP it doesn't matter much where the pj is in relation to the screen. The pj should be mounted near your eyes. Light is sent back to the light source. If you read the first post of the High Power review link it explains the concept and mount limitations far better than I can.

The High-Power Screen Gain Calc in post 566 of this thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/t/1213577/da-lite-hi-power-new-or-old-what-did-you-get/560_40 ) will tell you precisely how much gain you can expect from an HP screen if you plug in your room info. IMO, even if your gain isn't optimal due to a poor mounting location it still may be worth going with an HP. If all your seating locations calculate out better than the 1.1 of the CineWhite, you're still getting some benefit from the HP. Later on if you upgrade to a projector with lens shift and can place the pj optimally, you'll get your plasma effect. PJ's come & go. A good screen will take care of your HT needs a lot longer.
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post #15 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I exchanged a few emails with Mike and he thinks that I'll still get plenty of gain out of a Da-Lite HP even though the 3010 will be mounted up high.

I may go with an electric non-tensioned HP screen. Tensioned really drives the price up, out of my budget. Wife would kill me if I spent over $2000 on a screen!
I did read through a lot of posts from those that went that route. They really seem impressed by what the screen can do.

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post #16 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 05:34 AM
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^^^

excellent decision to talk with mike, i've bought several things from him, and as noted by another poster, if you have an issue, he will take care of it for you with the manufacturer...

unless you REALLY need an electric model, why not go for a manual one? it'll save you a pretty big chunk of change...

fwiw, i like my hp screen material a lot.... i also liked the hphc material i had before this, but unfortunately, it suffered "death by cat"... frown.gif at least the cat is the assumed perp...

question: where are your speakers going to go? keep in mind that they can't end up behind the screen...

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post #17 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 06:50 AM
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Congrats, neveser! Please update the thread with your viewing impressions after you've had a chance to check out your new screen.

Regarding your earlier question about why I got an HP, I have an RS60 & JVC pj's are a bit dim. I wanted enough brightness for 3D to be enjoyable. After viewing all the happy posts about the HP in the review thread I ordered samples of both the old 2.8 and the new 2.4 fabrics. (They were both available at the time I was debating the screen upgrade.) Both HP samples left images on my matte white looking drab in comparison. I chose the 2.4 because the material seemed more transparent. White looked pure white on the 2.4 while the 2.8 had a bit of a paisley effect, at least viewing right up close to the samples. The 2.4 also looked a bit better off-axis than the 2.8 to my eye so I went that route. I've been very happy with the material which is why I proselytize for it. I'm sure you'll be pleased, even with your non-optimal pj location.
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post #18 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 07:58 AM
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I am a big HP fan but I don't think your choice is optimal if you do not reposition your projector.
With it being ceiling mounted the HP is going to light up the ceiling. Light is sent back to where it came from with the retroreflective screen.. i.e. back at the projector ON THE CEILING.

The screen is great, but set up your projector properly.. yes it will work about the same as a utility gain screen with the projector on the ceiling.. Sort of defeats the purpose .. but at least you do have the option to fix it at a later date!!
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post #19 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I am a big HP fan but I don't think your choice is optimal if you do not reposition your projector.
With it being ceiling mounted the HP is going to light up the ceiling. Light is sent back to where it came from with the retroreflective screen.. i.e. back at the projector ON THE CEILING.
The screen is great, but set up your projector properly.. yes it will work about the same as a utility gain screen with the projector on the ceiling.. Sort of defeats the purpose .. but at least you do have the option to fix it at a later date!!

I don't have much of a choice when it comes to the mounting location of the 3010. No lens shift. It has to be even with the bottom or the top of the screen. If I did tabletop, there's no way to fill a 120" screen, so it has to be ceiling.
If the light is thrown back at the ceiling... well... that would be bad. The ceiling is white.
Maybe I should call Da-Lite. I haven't heard from Mike today.

EDIT: it looks like what I need is either a reflective or diffusion type screen. HP mimics glass bead which is retroreflective.

2nd EDIT: I've found several posts from people who are using an HP screen with an Epson 3010. They seem to be loving it. However, I have found a few articles where the reviewer suggested that going HP with this projector is a bad idea... so much confusion! The projector will be here on Thursday. This screen selection process is turning out to be a real PIA!

I still need to order my new amp too. My current Onkyo doesn't support 3D.

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post #20 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

where are your speakers going to go? keep in mind that they can't end up behind the screen...
I have just enough room on the sides for the fronts, the center will go below the screen.
Quote:
unless you REALLY need an electric model, why not go for a manual one? it'll save you a pretty big chunk of change....
I've read that manual pulling down on the screen can contribute to waves, so I wanted to go electric to (hopefully) prevent that.

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post #21 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neveser View Post

I've found several posts from people who are using an HP screen with an Epson 3010. They seem to be loving it. However, I have found a few articles where the reviewer suggested that going HP with this projector is a bad idea... so much confusion! The projector will be here on Thursday. This screen selection process is turning out to be a real PIA!

If you listen to 10 different people you're likely to get 10 different opinions. Don't let the confusion get you down...

Have you plugged your room specs into the High-Power Screen Gain Calc? Have you ordered screen samples? Doing these things will tell you if the HP is right for you. If your pj is mounted level with the top of your screen you might have a 3' distance between your eyes & the pj lens. That's not likely to be a deal-killer angle as far as the HP 2.4 material is concerned. You're still in positive gain territory 40 degrees off-axis:

423

Run the numbers. Get a sample. Read the HP review thread. Judge for yourself...
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post #22 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Just messing around with the numbers, I get between 1.13 and 1.18 or so. Mike just got back to me and said that getting the screen down away from the ceiling will help a bit. I do have some leeway in how high the screen can be mounted, so that will help.

I did read that HP review thread. That's what got me excited about it! biggrin.gif

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post #23 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 08:45 PM
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One other experiment you could try if you go with the HP. Get an extra drop pole for your mount that will lower the pj closer to eye level. You'll need to use some keystone to square-up the image. Although keystone degrades the image you may find that the slight softening is a worthwhile tradeoff to get the higher gain. As you noted early on, the Epson is a fairly bright pj so perhaps you don't need to go that route. It is an option however.
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post #24 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 09:42 PM
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Just go for the HP, it is reasonably priced and that projector won't last forever! You will be upgrading before you know it and can pick something up that works better with the screen..
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post #25 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike is getting a quote for me tomorrow morning on the HP...

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post #26 of 58 Old 07-18-2012, 10:36 PM
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You will be fine with the HP. I've never had a HP myself, but 2 Da-lite matt white pull-downs. Had waves on the Model B, but never a porblem on the model C. I think if you get a model C manual pull-down, you won't have wave problems.
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post #27 of 58 Old 07-19-2012, 01:26 AM
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I'll play devil's advocate here and add some honest feedback (from a long time HP owner)...

While you will welcome the added brightness of the HP screen for 3D viewing you'll also see your black level suffer during 2D viewing (especially considering the 3010 does not have good black level to begin with).

I am a huge fan of the HP screens, and have owned one for years, but unless your primary interest/viewing is 3D I would not go with that combo in a white room. Even ceiling mounted you will get some gain from the HP and as stated above it will light up your ceiling.

I had the 3010 for a couple days and the image was insanely bright on the HP (granted I have the older 2.8 gain material) but the black level was pretty poor for 2D viewing (fine for 3D due to the loss from the glasses).

With the HP pull downs you do not have to worry about waves (unless you get one that is seriously defective) as they will not be visible during viewing even if they are there, my model C-csr has had slight waves for years.

I just switched to a 133" fixed frame screen yesterday and already missing that bit of added gain from my HP even though my PJ is ceiling mounted.

Best of Luck,
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post #28 of 58 Old 07-19-2012, 02:07 AM - Thread Starter
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You make some good points, Jason.

I've known about the black levels with the 3010. I've come across a few people who have purchased a filter for 2D viewing. Someone had a screenshot showing the Lucasfilm title card with and without the ND2 filter. The filter really brought back the black levels.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1366241/my-epson-3010-projector-just-arrived/1080 - post #1085
I may pick up one of those. I'll wait and see how this all comes together.

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post #29 of 58 Old 07-19-2012, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

120" with 8' ceiling crazy........hell no, I have a 7' ceiling with a 174".

I was thinking the same thing when this showed up on the main forum page as a featured thread.

I don't have anything like you do, but I managed 138" (16:9) with a 7' 8" ceiling.
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post #30 of 58 Old 07-19-2012, 08:42 AM
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I'm running a 3010 with a Elite 120 pull down screen in a 19x18 ft room with 8ft ceilings. It looks great from about 14' back and I can sit upwards of 10 without too much trouble. The biggest problem I didn't think about is that leaves about 20-24" under the screen so depending on positioning of equipment if its under you might be limited with what you can find, if you have it else where no problem.

With a short projector mount you drop down to just about enough, I have to be a little above the screen because it has to be positioned right above my door but its not enough that I have to mess with the keystone.

There is some waviness in the elite screen but I don't notice it at all when running the projector. I couldn't complain though I got it for like $110 on amazon during a sale. So far so good though I like it a lot for a budget screen.

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