Let's Talk Ultimate Qualities for the Perfect Screen - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Elix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dungeon, Pillar of Eyes
Posts: 1,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Despite the name of the topic let's talk about existing screens, existing technology. Let's not stray too far away from reality.
People don't know what to look for when they're choosing their screen. Form factor issues aside (fixed vs. recessed) there are dozens of companies with similar screen materials (but different names tongue.gif). And it's very hard to judge which screen is better by looking at technical specifications, isn't it? Is higher gain always better? Is higher contrast always better? Are there more important aspects to picture quality in a projected image rather than brightness and contrast? In my opinion, there is. Brightness, contrast, color (and correct calibration) all contribute to immersiveness of the image. But so does resolution and the quality which is rarely spoken of when choosing a screen: invisibility of a screen. Inability to notice the surface itself on which the image is projected. A screen with such texture-less and smooth surface will allow to perceive image depth many times better than a higher gain, higher contrast screen with sparkles, shimmer etc.

However there aren't so many screen with such qualities, are there? I am currently on the quest for such a screen. Famous JKP Affinity 0.9 comes to mind. But I haven't seen it personally.

Discuss!
Elix is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Elix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dungeon, Pillar of Eyes
Posts: 1,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I think this post deserves to be here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

There is no free lunch with any of these screens. I should probably explain further and define a gain screen. A gain screen has a coating or optical layer that is designed to reflect light other than being perfectly diffuse. A screen with no coating can be seen from all angles with no change in picture quality and it also does not matter where the projector is placed, you will still see the same image everywhere. This is called a lambertian surface or lambertian reflectance. The overall gain of the screen is misleading, I'm mainly concerned with what this optical layer does to the picture.

A screen starts with a base material and that color can be different. This alone will change our overall gain and can color shift the image. A reference material is similar to chalk and is a magnesium based compound. So if our base material is gray we have a gain less than one. But we can still have good viewing from all angles. If the base material is whiter that the reference it is often said to have a positive gain, usually a small amount like a 1.1 gain and still maintains good viewing angle from everywhere.

People that have a reference material and are in the 'bat cave' environment will tell you there is no better picture and they are correct. Once we apply an optical coating or layer, light is being bent and our picture is being distorted. Someone had posted pictures of an HP old and new version under a microscope or magnified, do this with a projected image and you will see the pixel distortion especially compared to a reference screen. This is a tradeoff we make to correct for other problems of a given environment.

Any screen that has these optical coatings/ layers has to be used in the right combination of projector and audience placement to minimize these distortions. But even in the best set up for a given screen some distortion still exists. That distortion can come as lack of screen uniformity, hot spotting, color shifting, sheens, glimmering, sparkles, etc. The HP and DNP are no exception.

With a retroreflective screen it is best to have the viewer as close to the audience as possible, which of course is impossible to get perfect or you'd block the image:-) Also, retroreflective materials are not perfect in their reflectivity and often have color shifts with minor amounts of off axis viewing. I did say in general it is best with a longer throw but there are exceptions depending on the screen design. Also, with angular reflective screens it would help to have a curved screen but you might need need a different lens to account for pincushion.

With any gain screen they are said to reject ambient light. This is simply not accurate. They do not reject ambient light they just don't reflect it back to the audience. If there is a light to the side of a screen that light with an angular reflective screen would be easily seen on the other side of the screen. It just wouldn't be seen in front of the screen. If it was a retroreflective screen the light would be reflected back towards the light but again not in front of the screen. Now a screen can be designed to have different characteristics in the vertical and horizontal axis. Sometimes this is done with multiple optical layers/coatings like the DNP.

So let's use a simple example of 2 different screens, The Studio Tech 130 and Firehawk. A 1.3 gain vs a 1.25 gain so it should be very similar? Why does the Firehawk have less viewing angle with less gain? The answer is it doesn't have less gain. I'll use some estimated figures as I don't know their exact ratio.

Say the Studio tech 130 starts wtih a reference 1.0 gain material and applies a 1.3 gain coating for an overall 1.3 gain.
The Firehawk starts with ~.83 gain screen and has a 1.5 gain coating for an overall 1.25 gain.

This is a simplications but overall gain does not tell all the characterisitcs of a screen. I'll let any DNP guys that might monitor this forum talk specifically about how their layers are used to give the results they are trying to achieve and what environments it is best suited. No screen is best in all environments no matter what :Dthe salesman says

I hope this helps with a little primer on screens and choosing the best screen for your environment.
Elix is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 09:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
noah katz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Mountain View, CA USA
Posts: 20,372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 138
"Originally Posted by BobL View Post

There is no free lunch with any of these screens."

True from a physics perspective, but for the intended use there can be *multiple* free lunches.

Retroreflective screens for example: Besides a brighter image, less light is sent to the sides, where there are no viewers and it would just re-reflect and lower intrascene CR, and it partially rejects ambient light from there as well.

Noah
noah katz is online now  
post #4 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 11:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
greg1292's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: FORT WAYNE,INDIANA
Posts: 999
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Elix nice post very informative info here. My JKP 1.1 is nice for my bat cave but preferred the HP for my no controlled room.

 Specialize in maximizing performance on a beer budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

greg1292 is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 04:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 4,772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 201
Ya, it depends on the room - there is no free lunch when it comes to the effect the room has on the screen.

Very few screen surfaces are " invisible " in my experience. At least not all the time . You need a super dark black room. Otherwise, you need to learn to live with a few compromises.

So far, in my improved theater room, the StudioTek 130 G3 is fairly invisible 98% of the time, at 1.26 screen widths away. At 16 - 18 foot lamberts. smile.gif

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is online now  
post #6 of 14 Old 04-16-2013, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Elix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dungeon, Pillar of Eyes
Posts: 1,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 23
You are correct - it all depends on the viewing conditions. With the right distance you won't notice sparkling and sheen even if they are there. But to be completely honest, both Da-Lite's HP and StudioTek 130 G3 do sparkle and have sheen. It will be apparent in bright scenes and at closer seating distances. The only screen material which has been reported to have no sparkling and sheen whatsoever is Stewart's SnoMatte 100 (search for AccuCal Front Projection Screen Report pdf). And I'm really curious what makes its surface to possess such qualities. Anyone has a macro picture of the screen surface?

As a side note, I ordered a screen sample of this screen (see below). Will it will be possible to create an invisible window to the image with it? We'll see.

1.2 gain lambertian acrylic glass screen - dioxide titan base material (left) vs. A4 sheet of paper (right)
Elix is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 04-17-2013, 05:47 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,911
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

You are correct - it all depends on the viewing conditions. With the right distance you won't notice sparkling and sheen even if they are there.

That is not my experience. Having seen a great many screens with gain coating in all manner of conditions, from near and far seating distances, if a screen has a texture it's visible from anywhere (at least, any sane viewing distance). I've never seen sparklies or screen sheen disappear from the farther viewing seats.
R Harkness is offline  
post #8 of 14 Old 04-17-2013, 09:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 4,772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 201
True Rich, but they can become less obvious from further away. Remember how far away we had to sit with 480p projectors? 2 screen widths? 1.75 screen widths ? At the distance that you had to sit to not see screen door / pixels ( 720p too ), I couldn't see much screen texture. Maybe 25 year old fighter pilots could, but not me. It's only gotten more critical at the closer distances we can sit now. And it's going to get worse with 4K, eh?

I moved my seating 8 inches closer - I could see more texture on my Firehawk that wasn't apparent before. Much less on the StudioTek 130 - nearly invisible 99% of the time.
Quote:
You are correct - it all depends on the viewing conditions. With the right distance you won't notice sparkling and sheen even if they are there. But to be completely honest, both Da-Lite's HP and StudioTek 130 G3 do sparkle and have sheen. It will be apparent in bright scenes and at closer seating distances. The only screen material which has been reported to have no sparkling and sheen whatsoever is Stewart's SnoMatte 100 (search for AccuCal Front Projection Screen Report pdf). And I'm really curious what makes its surface to possess such qualities. Anyone has a macro picture of the screen surface?

When I watched " Flight " on my new StudioTek 130 G3, it was almost like looking out a window. That Blu Ray looked outstanding on my setup.

The problem with the StudioTek 100 is you need a completely black room to fully take advantge of it. Not many people can do that ( including me ).

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is online now  
post #9 of 14 Old 04-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 12,964
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

You are correct - it all depends on the viewing conditions. With the right distance you won't notice sparkling and sheen even if they are there. But to be completely honest, both Da-Lite's HP and StudioTek 130 G3 do sparkle and have sheen. It will be apparent in bright scenes and at closer seating distances. The only screen material which has been reported to have no sparkling and sheen whatsoever is Stewart's SnoMatte 100 (search for AccuCal Front Projection Screen Report pdf). And I'm really curious what makes its surface to possess such qualities. Anyone has a macro picture of the screen surface?

As a side note, I ordered a screen sample of this screen (see below). Will it will be possible to create an invisible window to the image with it? We'll see.

1.2 gain lambertian acrylic glass screen - dioxide titan base material (left) vs. A4 sheet of paper (right)


I agree and disagree. I have owned Severtsen, Carada, Stewart and Da-lite. Out of all of them, the ST130 and HP 2.8 were my 2 favorite (slight nod overall to the 2.8 between the two in my room with my viewing preferences) and both disappeared the best out of the ones I have owned. Having said that, both the 130 G3 and 2.8 can fairly easily be seen as far as the texture goes with any sort of bright solid type scene/section if you look for it (and sometimes even when you don't) no matter if I am at a 1.8 view distance for my 1.78 image or a 1.4 for my 2.35.

I would love to check out the snowmatte 100 or JKP 1.1 at some point if I ever have a projector with ~2x the calibrated light output of my RS45 so I can get similar contrast/brightness vs what I get with my HP 2.8 right now.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is online now  
post #10 of 14 Old 04-18-2013, 07:31 PM
Member
 
GTA Beancounter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 25
What do any of you think about the elunevision reference 4k screens? I live a few minutes from their warehouse and their claims for this screen are impressive to this newbie so I will likely pick up the white 1.00 gain version for my dedicated pitch black room. Just surprised to not see it mentioned above. Cheers.
GTA Beancounter is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 04-19-2013, 09:46 AM
Member
 
majek 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
I am also interested in the Elunevision Ref Studio 4K 100; 1.0 Gain White.

The sample that they sent was the smoothist of all the mfr's that I received Samples from.

Should be ordering next week.
majek 60 is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 04-22-2013, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
Elix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Dungeon, Pillar of Eyes
Posts: 1,185
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I hope Mark will forgive me for using his words here without his consent, but they're fitting well in this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Bill has seen my system several times before. the only change is the switch out from Studiotec 130 to Snomat 100... The increase in realism, making the screen vanish so to speak, was dramatic. Its a trade off like most everything else. I really don't like exceeding say 20 ft lamberts but I suppose one van get use to it and many I suspect might prefer it. To me, I wouldn't trade off the realism for extra brightness and remember my screen is only 54 x 96 at maximum opening of the masks.
Elix is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 04-25-2013, 09:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 4,772
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Liked: 201
Mark knows what he;s talking about. The problem is that you really need to design your room to take advantage of a unity gain screen like the StudioTek 100 -
Quote:
The StudioTek 100 is a professional screen primarily intended for use in post-production and optical lab scenarios. It will perform best in a black, non-reflective room environment. Stewart Filmscreen normally does not recommend that this screen material be used for home theater, since most consumers do not have the black walls, floors and ceiling required to eliminate reflected light for the screen's optimum performance.

If you have a black cave, it could be a great choice.
Quote:
I am also interested in the Elunevision Ref Studio 4K 100; 1.0 Gain White.

The sample that they sent was the smoothist of all the mfr's that I received Samples from.

Should be ordering next week.

I am personally not familiar with Elunevision - let us know what you think when you get the sample !

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Direct Line - 585-671-2972
I'm available 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday Email me at craig@avscience.com
http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, Klipsch, and many more!
Craig Peer is online now  
post #14 of 14 Old 04-25-2013, 11:12 AM
Member
 
majek 60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Mark knows what he;s talking about. The problem is that you really need to design your room to take advantage of a unity gain screen like the StudioTek 100 -
If you have a black cave, it could be a great choice.
I am personally not familiar with Elunevision - let us know what you think when you get the sample !

I received all 3 materials from Carada. 2 from SI and the 4K 1.0 Gain from Elunevision. The Elunevision sample was smooth, no texture what so ever. It was the whitest of all the materials also. I have not projected to it yet.
majek 60 is offline  
Reply Screens

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off