Black Screen from Sweden - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 04-26-2013, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Check this out, I found these videos accidentally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwCO4zNW0ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PabEsayaRG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkiC5ZDdzs4

Tough luck for those outside Sweden, though. He (the inventor) won't sell them abroad for now.
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post #2 of 27 Old 04-26-2013, 04:34 PM
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The last video shows it the best. It's amazing. OK, I'm feeling some deadly sins now. What's the chace of a diy looking anything like this?
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post #3 of 27 Old 04-27-2013, 05:01 PM
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highly likely. and even better.

the first two videos were less than impressive. and the third showed very little other than a dark sample that seemed to display a small amount of white lettering without much loss in white levels... in a fairly decent amount of ambient light.
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post #4 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 03:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

highly likely. and even better.
Whoa. Really? Then you might give us a hint about the materials used to produce this screen?
Can you tell by videos will this screen show too much screen structure? And will it sparkle a lot?
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post #5 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 08:12 AM
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I wonder how much he charges.

Anyone going on business over there and would like to make some purchases for us? smile.gif
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post #6 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 10:15 AM
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the diy screen forum is litered with examples every bit as good and better than those poor videos.
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post #7 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 07:55 PM
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The React II looks pretty darn good too

Noah
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post #8 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 11:50 PM
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Isn't the React II just a 1.0 Gain?

I wonder what gain this screen is.
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post #9 of 27 Old 04-28-2013, 11:58 PM - Thread Starter
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By the looks of it, it's 0.7-0.8 gain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pb_maxxx View Post

the diy screen forum is litered with examples every bit as good and better than those poor videos.
Do you care to throw in an example?
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post #10 of 27 Old 04-30-2013, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

Isn't the React II just a 1.0 Gain?

I wonder what gain this screen is.

The ReAct 2 is about 0.8 - 0.9 gain. The new ReAct 2.1 is about 1.0 - 1.1 gain. This screen is made by Euroscreen in Sweden. They are owned by Draper Europe. I am tempted to import one but they are not cheap. The guys at AVForums are raving about this screen.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/projector-screens/1604732-draper-reactii-fitted-tested.html
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post #11 of 27 Old 05-17-2013, 03:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone have information about that Sweden guy that makes black screens?
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post #12 of 27 Old 05-19-2013, 12:25 PM
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Hello!
I found out (on a Swedish Home Theater forum) that my Black Screen had its own thread here on AVS-forum.
Feels very nice that my screen is discussed on the biggest Home Theater-forum on internet smile.gif
This forum is a big inspiration for me - and a priceless goldmine for information about ...everything... regarding Home Theater.
Have to thank Elix who started this thread for that.

Background Black Screen:
A few years ago, one of my big interests was to build my own projectors (DIY).
The problem with the projectors was that I did not get enough light out on the screen -with the smallest amount of ambient light coming in, the picture seemed grey and washed out...and I had endless sleepless nights trying to come up with some idea of how to increase the light.
One day I suddenly got the idea of thinking in the opposite....why not try to create a screen that gives as much light back as possible instead?
That's how it started.

I did then spend about three years (evenings and weekends) combining different materials to come up with something that could meet my expectations.
And then when I found the best combination I tried to reduce the number of layers (because I did not know exactly wich was absolutely nescessary for the result).
Ok, this part is a long and boring story, so I won't bother you with that...
But I found what I had been looking for and ended up with the material wich I called BlackScreen (Note that I did not know about the Black Diamond at the time..the name is a coinsidence).

At the swedish forum I later saw a thread about Black Diamond, and did a reply that I had come up with something similar...
Of course people was ready to roll me in tar and feathers...and said it was impossible... that I was a cheater...so I started my own thread wich has been going on now for about 3 years and where the forumpeople could follow the development from prototype to a nice designed endproduct.

A very wellknown swedish "screenexpert" measured the screen and said ( he was selling both React, Firehawk and Black Diamond in his shop) that Black Screen was the best HC-screen in ambient light that he had seen in his life (with the cons and pros that follows with a HCscreen).

People wanted to buy the screen, and I figured out how to manufacture it and secure the quality from the beginning to the end.
It is handmade and I manufactures it one by one ( or two by two smile.gif after order.
That's why I did not sell it outside of Sweden from the beginning.

It is expensive to manufacture and I'm not sure how to handle orders from abroad...

Well, I hope that I have answered some of your questions in this reply -but feel free to ask me anything about Black Screen, and I will try to answer as good as I can.
English is not my native language, so I apologuise for the grammatics and spelling but hope that you still can understand what I'm saying,

Regards
Lecvip
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post #13 of 27 Old 05-20-2013, 01:08 AM - Thread Starter
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What a surprise! Thanks a lot for posting here, Lecvip. Now that we know your story it becomes hard to demand something from you. As I see it, you're in a position when you have an almost complete product at hands waiting to be marketed and you're not sure what to do with it. Well, we're in no position to be giving you advice because it's a decision that will influence your life.

If it's not a secret, what's your selling price for these? And a couple of questions regarding the screen's qualities:
1) What is the rated gain for this screen?
2) What are the viewing angles? How noticeable a drop-off across the screen is?
3) Is the screen structure visible on close distances? The amoun of sparkles, shimmering? Any comparison to ReAct?
4) Are there any advantages to using this screen in a completely blacked-out room (but untreated)?
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post #14 of 27 Old 05-20-2013, 09:22 AM
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lecvip, thanks for coming.

Your English is very good and perfectly understandable.

I too would like some more technical data on gain vs. angle as well as image contrast at various lighting levels as is supplied by some mfgr's.

Do you have a technical background? Can you share the operating principle?

Though you probably shouldn't unless you've taken steps to protect your IP (intellectual property).

It sounds like what's needed is to get some venture capital to finance making the manufacturing more economical, which would allow more people to benefit and maybe make you wealthy smile.gif

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post #15 of 27 Old 05-20-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

What a surprise! Thanks a lot for posting here, Lecvip. Now that we know your story it becomes hard to demand something from you. As I see it, you're in a position when you have an almost complete product at hands waiting to be marketed and you're not sure what to do with it. Well, we're in no position to be giving you advice because it's a decision that will influence your life.

If it's not a secret, what's your selling price for these? And a couple of questions regarding the screen's qualities:
1) What is the rated gain for this screen?
2) What are the viewing angles? How noticeable a drop-off across the screen is?
3) Is the screen structure visible on close distances? The amoun of sparkles, shimmering? Any comparison to ReAct?
4) Are there any advantages to using this screen in a completely blacked-out room (but untreated)?

Hello Exil!

Black Screen is a complete product and I am manufacturing it and selling it since 1 year here in Sweden.
I know exactly what to do with it...but it is under patent pending and the result of that will help me decide how to act in the future.
I'm in no hurry. I have a daily job that's paying the rent smile.gif
And I want to act in the right way at the right time. This is a quality product and I want to be shure to not mess things up.

The price in Sweden is 187 skr/diagonal inch including taxes.
That is about 25 USD.
That means that a 90" in 16:9 costs 16.830 Skr incl tax.
That is about 2.400 USD

1. The gain is 2.0 (+) according to the man who measured the screen.
2. The wieving angle is not wide. The darker the room -the better angle.
In a daylight room it's about 20° (one chair outside the screen).
And that is what you get if you want your screen to show a descent picture in a living room in the middle of the day.
The surface is curved for more uniform light...inside the width of the screen, in daylight, it is hardly no noticable drop-off. But from the side it is. The darker the room -the less drop-off-effect from the side.
I will come back with pictures so you can see different angles and so on, if you're interested. Attached two picture from my livingroom (excuse the mess...)
3.Yes, the structure is visible if you're close to the screen. I recommend to not sit closer than 3,5m = about 10 feet from the screen for all the reasons you ask for: visible structure, sparkles, shimmering and hotspot. This should be a recommendation for all HC screens IMHO...even if they say minimum 1.2 - 1.6 the width of the screen...if closer than 10-11 feet you will see negative sides of the HC screens.
4. As I see it -the only benefits I can think of in a total dark/black batcave is if you've got a projector with bad black levels.
BlackScreen has a dark grey base and you will get more black in the black areas of the picture from BlackScreen compared to a white screen.
On the other hand - with a white screen you don't have the typical HC compromises and you'll get a wider viewing angle.
Tough question...
If the room is "dark" in the mening of no windows, but the walls are grey, the ceiling is in a light color and the room has a wooden floor, the BackScreen is to prefere because it wont reflect the light from the projector to the walls, ceiling or floor and therefore there are no reflections from the room back to the screen.
You will get a dark nice room that will not be lightend up by the screen and a picture with black blacks, colorful colors and a high contrast picture.

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 75
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post #16 of 27 Old 05-22-2013, 07:33 AM
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This screen sounds very similar to other retroreflective grey based screens.

Anyone willing to pony up the cost of prchasing and shipping one of these bad boys to states to have a shoot out?
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post #17 of 27 Old 05-22-2013, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biliam1982 View Post

This screen sounds very similar to other retroreflective grey based screens.

It's retroreflective?

I missed that.

Noah
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post #18 of 27 Old 05-22-2013, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

It's retroreflective?

I missed that.

It´s Reflective. Works best with ceilingmounted projectors.

Forgot in my latest post to mention that BlackScreen do a great job with 3D-material (active glasses) as well.
It gives a bright picture with black blacks (with glasses on) -even in ambient light environment (picture showing BS with 3D-material at a local fair -lots of ambient lights).

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post #19 of 27 Old 05-23-2013, 03:19 AM - Thread Starter
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What projector was used in this demonstration?
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post #20 of 27 Old 05-23-2013, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

What projector was used in this demonstration?

I used a simple BenQ W700+ (720p) and a Optoma 3DXL-box ( 120Hz) together with a cheap Philips 3D BDplayer -just to show how important the screen really is in a setup.
I used the normal level on lamp because of the bright surroudings. The ecomode was also OK but normal was a bit better and gave the crispy picture that I wanted.
!
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post #21 of 27 Old 05-29-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lecvip View Post

It´s Reflective. Works best with ceilingmounted projectors.

To be clear, do you mean angular reflective, i.e. not retroreflective?

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post #22 of 27 Old 05-30-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

To be clear, do you mean angular reflective, i.e. not retroreflective?
Hello Noah Katz!
I mean angular reflective.
That means (as you know) that it transport the light in the opposite reflective angle as it is shooting from.
That's why it performs best with a ceilingmounted projector.
Attached a youtube movie from my living room.
The projector is (europe) Epson TW2900 (8100 in US I think) in ecomode ( 5.70m (ca 18feet) between optics and screen) and thanks to the curved screen you've got a very even lighted screen surface.
I recorded this from about 3,5 m (10 feet) distance and I'm about one chair outside the screen...
Cosy light on. 4 lamps -two on front of the screen and two from the opposite of the screen + light in from glasswall (dining room, kitchen..with lights on)..
In this more darkened light you've got a good viewing angle. The darker the room -the better angle.
My wife is sitting one chair outside me (in the sofa) and she's not complayning about anything wrong with the picture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-_Ritmea6c

and here is my 50" testscreen in one of our "offices" in midday. The projector is an old Pana 900 with a lot of hours on the lamp.
Two windows (with no curtains) light in from the right ( se shadow from the LCD-monitor).
Just for bragging smile.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivxeVhvspIA
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-31-2013, 12:38 PM
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Is having the screen curved the only recommended way to install it?

That's not practical for those of us with electric screens.

In a way that's a relief because now I don't have to feel bad that I can't get one smile.gif

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post #24 of 27 Old 05-31-2013, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Is having the screen curved the only recommended way to install it?

That's not practical for those of us with electric screens.

In a way that's a relief because now I don't have to feel bad that I can't get one smile.gif

It's a framed screen.
The screenmaterial (BS) is so "extreme" it has to be implemented in a superflat surface to work as I want it to.

I don't know why people have motorized screens instead of a framed screen built in the wall with a nice looking jalusi to pull down when not using the screen.
On the other hand I don't understand why anyone wants to hide it...it looks very nice on the wall...like floating 50mm outside the wall...and got a lot of space for LED backlight if wanted.
A framed screen is IMHO the best screen.

regards
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post #25 of 27 Old 06-02-2013, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lecvip View Post

I don't know why people have motorized screens instead of a framed screen built in the wall with a nice looking jalusi to pull down when not using the screen.

Because the screen covers other things that need to be accessed, in my case light switches and a built-in entertainment center with TV, the equipment, discs, etc

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post #26 of 27 Old 06-03-2013, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Because the screen covers other things that need to be accessed, in my case light switches and a built-in entertainment center with TV, the equipment, discs, etc
Hi Noah!
I did not mean to affend anyone.
Excuse me.
What I mean is, when planning the home theater/living room many people buy a motorized screen (of old habit?) instead of extend the wall 10" and build the screen into the wall (recessed/inserted) and cover it with some kind of nice jalusi/blinds when not in use (if they think that a framed screen do not look good hanging on the wall). The big benefit with a framed screen is a total flat surface.
And it is as easy to rollup the blinds as rolling down a motorized screen.
I mounted Inwall speakers in my livingroom. Extended the wall 10" to do it.
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post #27 of 27 Old 06-03-2013, 04:21 PM
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Hi lecvip,

Not offended at all, just answering your question.

Noah
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