Black diamond screen seems to make black bars MORE noticeable! - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 04-29-2013, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
Newbie
 
michael16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So I am really trying to sift through all the info on the different screen options for my non-dedicated theater (living room) with some ambient light during the day and not blacked out at night. I'm looking to replace my LCD tv with something bigger and hopefully comparable picture wise. So either Epson 5020 or Sony Hw50es for my projector. For screen I was thinking Black Diamond. Not because I have disposable income but because this is the combination that SHOULD give the best "non-dedicated room / bright room" results to help me decide if projector/screen is the way to go over flat panel tv. You see all the rave reviews online and the comparison videos. Then I come here where people claim you can get as good or better results from a DIY screen costing 1/10th what a BD or Stewart Firehawk costs (Silverfire DIY screens etc...). More confusion and trepidation.

One thing that worries me about the black diamond screen: They have them on display in most Mangnolia Home Theater stores in my area in the same room as the 90" Sharp LED tv. They have the Sharp playing Avatar big and bright as can be. On the wall next to it is a 92" 16:9 black diamond 1.4 screen. They are projecting from an Epson 5020 in dynamic mode. To me it looks terrible 1) Because it's right next to the 90" LED TV which just looks sharp and bright and 2) Not only is the movie they are playing on the BD very dark overall (Thor), it is also 2.35 so the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen are very noticeable even when the room is blacked out. This is because the frame of the BD is black velvet or something similar and because the black bars are not as dark as the screen frame it makes the black bars that much more visible and annoying. The black bars just don't blend in with the frame of the screen like they should even when the light are out. Seems like a big problem for a $2500+ screen especially in ambient light situations where the difference between the black bars and the screen frame is even more obvious. Anyone have any comments on this?

Any thoughts, comments, or recommendations on other screen options is appreciated.
With screens, I have to pick one and go with it. I can't return it if it doesn't perform to my satisfaction in my room. I am willing to try the DIY route if there are those can show the results.

Thanks...
michael16 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 06-02-2013, 05:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
irfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 604
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Is this a screen problem.... or do you think it might be because the 5020 was in dynamic mode and also had a bright LED lit tv in the room?
irfan is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 06-17-2013, 05:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
5020 in Dynamic Mode is a light Cannon. That is the reason why you see the black bars.
Bardia is offline  
post #4 of 28 Old 06-19-2013, 11:13 AM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

I'm using a Stewart FireHawk G3 in the living room ! To me, it looks great and freakin awesome at night. But that's my taste.

What projector,

How big of a screen and what throw distance?
Bardia is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 06-20-2013, 07:11 AM
Member
 
ZeGhostbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 91
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael16 View Post


Any thoughts, comments, or recommendations on other screen options is appreciated.
With screens, I have to pick one and go with it. I can't return it if it doesn't perform to my satisfaction in my room. I am willing to try the DIY route if there are those can show the results.

Have you looked at masking systems? They are usually made from the same or similar material as the surround, so they really make the perceived contrast pop.
ZeGhostbear is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 06-21-2013, 11:45 AM
Member
 
AreasInteligent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I love Firehawk G3. We have it with a Runco LS 5 projectot. Stunning image.
AreasInteligent is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 06-21-2013, 11:55 AM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I think I'm pretty much set on the firehawk G3. Not it's down to the projector. I am very close to going with RS4810 but when I read reviews like this, I get confused...

The X55 is not for everyone. These days, many people want the ability to use their projectors in rooms where light control is less than perfect. While many other home theater projectors give users the kind of flexibility needed for this multi-purpose use, the X55 is not one of those projectors. But if you have the space and the will to make it work, the X55 can be an excellent projector for serious home theaterter

Let's start with how the room was setup for the shoot. I've already said this is a projector designed for a dedicated home theater / cave. While you could consider the bonus room / family room type environments, I don't believe this projector would be a good choice.ice.
Bardia is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 06-21-2013, 11:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

JVC RS1
120" diag at 13' from screen to seated couch position.

82f07b0f-e0b8-454b-8b21-7a7ec94c382e.jpg

Mike-monsters.jpg

How far is your projector from the screen and do you notice any hotspotting?
Bardia is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 06-22-2013, 10:16 AM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

We sit directly under the lens so it is 13' feet. As far as hotspotting, we don't notice that much really. It's minimal on the FireHawk and less than that with the UltraMatte 150. We have both. Currently, the UltraMatte is rolled up and stored behind the couch.

I'm not pushing my setup - just merely showing my results. Your setup/ conditions may or may not be similar.

Here is the setup with the Stewart UltraMatte - this was 3pm in the afternoon with our living room setup.
image-1.jpg

And a shot from an extreme angle with the Stewart UltraMatte:
image-2.jpg


I do like Stewart screens. They really display images extremely well.... At any angle.
I've seen the Black Diamond at Best Buy and I could not see great quality at any angle in my opinion. But Best Buys setup is not good. They're pushing to sell the large TVs 10' away!

How different do you think your picture would be if you had the StudioTek 130 instead of Firehawk? For night viewing?
Bardia is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 06-22-2013, 03:54 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Difficult question. I cannot honestly answer. Anyone?
I know that we lost our good black level with the UltraMatte 150. That's why we put the FireHawk back up. We had bought the UltraMatte because we were going to do 3D but then changed our minds.

The UltraMatte was great but the FireHawk really is awesome for the blacks....in a living room! Lol!


in the comparisons between the studiotek 130 and firehawk, the firehawk was noticable darker. the whites on the screen became alot dimmer.

Granted this was in a blacked out theater so maybe that's why...
Bardia is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 06-23-2013, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Here's another pic form Monsters Inc - at night, so no daylight leakage thru the drapes. This is the Stewart FireHawk G3.

image-3.jpg

Can you post a picture of the same film where they are walking in the street. I want to see how the whites are. Thx
Bardia is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 06-23-2013, 03:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Will try to do..but in the meantime, I found a picture from 2011. Monday Night Football screenshot. You can see some hot spotting slightly. Regular HD TV feed.

Yes, I see it. Ok so since I'm going with 2:35:1 120", I will go with Studiotek 130.

Fingers crossed...
Bardia is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 06-23-2013, 03:35 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
You can really see the obvious hotspot in that football image. Look how much brighter the center of the image is, most notable being the AstroTurf grass, vs how dark it becomes as you move towards the sides of the image. It's like someone is shining a spotlight on that central area. Most people aren't looking for hotspotting, and won't notice it. But once you notice it, and if it's something that you find bothersome (I do) , it's hard to get around. Which is why I opted for a white screen with more even illumination and more strict controlling of my ambient light and room reflectivity. But, again, the Firehawk is great at what it does; preserving contrast in more challenging room/lighting situations. Everything involves compromise - white screens included. I went with an ST-130 white screen for a somewhat brighter image, less screen texture and lack of noticeable hot spotting. The compromise is that I had to go for more aggresive room treatment, controlling ambient light and room reflections.
R Harkness is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 06-23-2013, 03:39 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Bardia,

Just go into your purchase, since it's an expensive one, with all the info you can get. That's a big wide screen you are buying so examine your seating set up. The further off center you get seating-wise the dimmer the other side of the image will be with a Firehawk. So people sitting to one side will see a bright portion of the image on the side closest to them, and it will get dimmer on the further half of the image. So consider your seating/viewing issues.
R Harkness is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 06-23-2013, 04:44 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Bardia,

Just go into your purchase, since it's an expensive one, with all the info you can get. That's a big wide screen you are buying so examine your seating set up. The further off center you get seating-wise the dimmer the other side of the image will be with a Firehawk. So people sitting to one side will see a bright portion of the image on the side closest to them, and it will get dimmer on the further half of the image. So consider your seating/viewing issues.

Yes, I have taken all those into consideration and ST 130 is what I will go with. I also read that the Firehawk was actually made exclusively for DLPs to help with contrast. ST 130 seems to be a better choice with my set up. I am not expecting the black on 120" 2:35:1 to even come close to my Kuro but I think RS4810 with a Panamorph and that screen could be fun!

I actually have not watched the Star Wars bluray and bunch of other discs waiting for this set up.
Bardia is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 06-24-2013, 07:23 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Ok. So I won't bother with capturing the Monsters street walking picture then. The picture shows it but actually watching it, hotspotting seems less. Weird! Well, I'm glad I could post several examples for you. Please post your new screen once you get all setup... Just start a new thread!!

I agree, hotspotting will often be less noticeable watching the screen in person.

BTW, I think it was very nice of you to take those screen shot pictures for Bardia's benefit. The effort to help one another out like that makes this forum so useful!
R Harkness is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 06-24-2013, 12:32 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Ok. So I won't bother with capturing the Monsters street walking picture then. The picture shows it but actually watching it, hotspotting seems less. Weird! Well, I'm glad I could post several examples for you. Please post your new screen once you get all setup... Just start a new thread!!

Stan, thank you for posting those. Last night while looking at my living room, I figured I will eventually change the white furniture to dark color and maybe paint the ceiling a shade of gray instead of white. That should help the ST130 I think.

Thanks again and yes I will post pics when its up and running. Cheers.smile.gif
Bardia is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 06-24-2013, 04:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Bardia,

Curtains are your friend. Some dark colored curtains (velvet is best) can be stacked to the side of the screen or in corners, and easily pulled along side walls to cut reflections. It's a great
method if for aesthetic reasons you don't want dark walls, but only need dark walls for movie viewing.

See this post, with pictures, from my home theater build thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254505/rich-hs-variable-image-size-home-theater-build-thread-completed/150#post_21997678

I had to use our existing living room for our home theater but didn't want it to be a bat cave for normal day use. Using curtains, I can have bat-cave level performance, all walls made non-reflective, in seconds, to watch a movie.

Rich
R Harkness is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 06-24-2013, 07:24 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Bardia,

Curtains are your friend. Some dark colored curtains (velvet is best) can be stacked to the side of the screen or in corners, and easily pulled along side walls to cut reflections. It's a great
method if for aesthetic reasons you don't want dark walls, but only need dark walls for movie viewing.

See this post, with pictures, from my home theater build thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1254505/rich-hs-variable-image-size-home-theater-build-thread-completed/150#post_21997678

I had to use our existing living room for our home theater but didn't want it to be a bat cave for normal day use. Using curtains, I can have bat-cave level performance, all walls made non-reflective, in seconds, to watch a movie.

Rich

That's funny I actually was going to ask you where you got the black roll down shades. With my set up, I can't install curtains but I need to get black roll down shades since I needed that for day time any way..
Bardia is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 06-25-2013, 10:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

That's funny I actually was going to ask you where you got the black roll down shades. With my set up, I can't install curtains but I need to get black roll down shades since I needed that for day time any way..

My black roll down shades are automated/remote controlled, from a Canadian company called Solarfective. Of course you don't need remote controlled but it certainly makes the process painless.
(Especially with macro commands on a universal remote. On my remote when I press "Watch Movie" it triggers the shades to roll down, the projector and sound system on, the movie lights dim, etc.)
R Harkness is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 06-25-2013, 10:39 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Those look like a really beautiful choice of curtain material Stan-Lee. Done right, the type of room treatments that cut reflections in a room can actually add to the aesthetics of the room, so it's win-win.

My wife actually hates curtains in general and was worried when I suggested them for your living room home theater. But once she saw how beautiful the material was and how it added a sense of luxury and softness to the room, she was on board.
R Harkness is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 06-25-2013, 07:55 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

Okay, the living room:

Before (on top)
And
After (bottom)
7A727D13-5CBF-4E01-889D-082032A05D9D-878-0000004F559759D0.jpg

Ok that room is super bright so Firehawk was the right choice.

Now I'm down to Perforated vs non Perforated. This is getting tiring...
Bardia is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 06-26-2013, 09:07 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked: 355
Nicely done.

Boy you do have a challenging room! That Black Diamond screen would be just the ticket in a room like yours.
R Harkness is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 06-26-2013, 10:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 5,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 273 Post(s)
Liked: 295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee

Okay, the living room:

Before (on top)
And
After (bottom

Ya, I like those curtains! The Firehawk is a good fit for your room IMO. I liked mine, and while I did have some hotspotting ( my throw was too close - I probably should have got the SST version ), it didn't bother me in actual viewing.

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Call me on my direct line - 585-671-2972, 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday
Email me at craig@avscience.com http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SIM2, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
post #25 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 02:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I went to Magnolia to see the Stewart in person. They had a 130" perforated Firehwak. JVC X70 and U480 lens.

This was a total light control theater room. The blacks were good but didn't make you go WOW. Then when I put the Studiotek Sample, on the screen, blacks were pretty much gone, the image and detail, whites and colors popped. very nice but the blacks suffered. Now if this is in a dedicated theater, in my living room, it would be disasterous. You could totally see a big difference from 12 feet away. To my surprise, putting a Firehawk sample next to the firehawk perforated screen, from 12 feet away, no difference.

Then I went to the other room where they had a older version of the black diamond, and WOW. Maybe the colors were not as accurate (hard to tell since the screens were not side by side), but the blacks were kinda Kuro like. This room had a galss door next to the projector so it was't even fully dark.

So it seems to me that maybe BD in this case, for my living room would be a better choice. I know the screen has a hint of blue but I'm sure it can be calibrated out.

I guess Im used to my Kuro too much. I heard about hot spotting and sparkles. but I will put the projector (Jvc X55 or most likely Epson 5020) about 18 - 19 feet away from a 92" 16:9 so that should do the trick.

I yet have to see the new BD in person
Bardia is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 09:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan-Lee View Post

The BB in my neighborhood has a BD up with an Epson 5020 and the blacks are gone. It's not light controlled either. It is similar to my living room conditions. In my experience the Stewart Firehawk G3 shines with my JVC RS1. I'm shocked that the BD with the X70 is not better than what you saw. It should have been. Hmmmm.

The black diamond was great. The firehawk didn't impress me. I will have to go again and see but I don't think no matter what, the BD has superior blacks and pop!
Bardia is offline  
post #27 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 10:16 PM
Newbie
 
func's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What are the gains on the BD screens you are talking about? Is it .8 or the 1.4 ?
func is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 11:11 PM
Senior Member
 
Bardia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by func View Post

What are the gains on the BD screens you are talking about? Is it .8 or the 1.4 ?

It was 1.4 92" 16:9
Bardia is offline  
Reply Screens

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off