Screen sample shoot-out JKP HD Progressive 1.1 and 1.3, Studiotek 130, Carada BW - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 11-11-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm moving to a new spacier house and will get the opportunity to do a music/cinema room without interference from the missus. Thus I will finally be able to decorate/paint in such a way that I can ditch my contrast preserving screens and move to something more transparent. At the moment I have both a HP(1.78:1) and a HCHP (2.40:1) pulldown screens, both of which I intend to keep for 3D viewing. However, I find them a bit distracting in bright scenes, especially during pans of uniform areas where a shimmering structure is clearly visable. I have a JVC X35 and will be looking for a 3 m (118'') wide 2.40:1 screen so any gain would be an advantage.

I have heard a lot of good things about both the JKP screens as well as the Stewart Neve and Snomatte in this forum. Alas, I don't have screen samples of all of them, but I have the JKP screens, the Studiotek 130, and then I threw in the Carada BW and CW for good measure. I particularly focused on transparancy and brightness as those are my main concerns. Though I feel the small sizes of the samples make the former a bit difficult to evaluate. After all the HP also looked quite transparant when looking at a small sample, but much less so when panning a whole screen.

These are my subjective opinions:

The Carada screens had very smooth surfaces and didn't show any screen texture or visible artifacts that I noticed. However, they were also clearly dimmer then the higher gain JKP and Stewart screens.

The Studiotek was brightness wise quite similar to the JKP 1.3 screen. The JKP a little brighter right in the sweetspot, wheras the Studiotek was brighter when moving slightly outside if it and clearly so when moving far to the side. (though this was in a direct A/B comparison and I dont believe I would have picked up on it if viewed on their own). Both screens had perfectly smooth surfaces, but where the studiotek had tiny shiny sparkles that were visible when studied up close, the JKP 1.3 completely lacked any visible sheen. With normal light that is... When viewied under projected light and standing close to the sample but in the sweetspot, I could see a very obvious shimmering, diffracting pattern that moved around as I moved my head around. At first I didn't notice it from the sofa, but after seeing it up close and knowing what to look for I could still spot it 4 m away (depth of the room). I first thought it could be some kind of moire, but it persisted when I zoomed the image size in and out. I don't know if it could have something to do with the polarization of the projected light as this phenomenon is completely absent in normal light? Perhaps it won't show on DLP's or LCOS projectors with the RGB polarizers aligned in different directions (e.g. Sony?) as I haven't heard of it before. Anyways, this completely ruled at the JKP 1.3 for me. When looking at the JKP 1.1 and 0.9, they displayed the exact same effect, though to a lesser extent. Still slightly visable from the seating position when moving my head. (and I fear it will get worse with a full size screen).

Thus it seems the Studiotek would be my best option. However, I still feel a bit trepidition for the sparkles. Though the screen sample was completely transparent from the sofa, I think it might be something else with a full screen. The option then seems to be the Neve or Snomatte materials. However, I haven't seen neither and I don't think there is any place to demo them closeby. Perhaps my best bet is to order screen samples from stewart? Also, I'm not so sure how much is the projector and how much is the screen? I can actually see the screen door effect from my seating position 3.5 meters away. Maybe this is contributing to the artifact seen in panning motions? What do you say guys, can a bright panning scene be completely transparant with regards to solid or moving patterns on the screen? If you have a JVC and a good screen maybe you can test it without eshift and see if you can spot anything?

Othwerwise, any thoughts?

Also, I took some (crappy) pics with my phone showing the relative brightness of the samples through my 3D glasses worn straight or tilted 90 degrees to show how much polarization they retain (big difference in brightness means high degree of polarization is preserved by the material). Also included is the Firehawk G3.

The samples are on a white wall and as follows: Carada BW, JKP 1.3, Studiotek G3, Carada CW, Firehawk G3.


Cheers!
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post #2 of 45 Old 11-12-2013, 07:44 PM
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You should absolutely get samples of the other materials. In comparisons I've seen there are large differences (like you've seen) between different manufacturers and different materials (within brands). I sold my Studiotek 130 due to visible sparkles from 15' away with a similar JVC projector (HD250) that was clearly visible in high white level scenes.

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post #3 of 45 Old 11-13-2013, 01:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for your input!

OK, I went by the Stewart factory here in Europe, which is located close to me. They were kind to give me samples of the Neve, Ultramatte 130 and good chunk size samples of the Studiotek 100 and 130 materials. I will have a look and report back!
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post #4 of 45 Old 11-13-2013, 04:54 AM
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I had the screen material replaced on my Da-Lite frame. I switched from a HP2.8 to the HD Progressive 1.3. I just got it yesterday so I had to assemble it and hang it last night, but I've got some initial impressions. Screen uniformity is great. No visible brightness change and no visible color shift across the screen. That was my main issue with the HP2.8; pretty severe changes across the screen, both in brightness and color shift. The new material screen is advertised at 1.3 gain, but from my initial calibration it appears to be a little less. As far as hot-spotting or a shimmering pattern in the sweet spot, yes, it does have some. Right at the screen with my eyes at the brightest spot, there is a slight visible pattern. It's hard to describe, like an irregular pattern that shimmers a little bit. It must be what Drexler saw in his post earlier. I am using a Sim2 HT5000E projector so my experience might be a little different. At my seating position at 10 ft from a 62"x110" screen(less than 2 SH's) it is not visible even on a 100% white field, and certainly not visible in any program material. But it is there, and its visibility I'm sure will vary from person to person. So, this is a non-issue for me. Overall I would say the screen is what I expected: Great uniformity, great color balance, and a little gain - just what I expected. Nothing to draw my attention to the screen. I have samples of many other materials, and I'll be comparing them today - especially with the StudioTek 130. But, I'm happy with the screen, and that's saying something. My wife will say I'm never completely happy with anything HT related and she's probably right.

Bob

After taking some measurements, I'll revise what I said about the screen gain not being as advertised. It is indeed close to the advertised 1.3. My measurements showed it to be only a little less than 1.3. (There's a lot of uncertainty in these measurements as I'm using two instruments - a i1Pro2 to measure fL's from the screen, and a LX1330B to measure lux from the projector.)
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post #5 of 45 Old 11-13-2013, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Brian,

What do you have now after you sold the ST, and are you happy with it?


Citation4444,

Yes how sensitive one is is very individual and also depends on the setup. I now think the reason the shimmering isn't visible in normal light is due to the lack of a single focused light source and therefore not any real sweetspot (and it's only visible when standing in the sweetspot). I don't know why it hasn't been picked up earlier though as I think it's quite obvious up close and the JKP screens have been described as completely transparent compared to other screens, which I don't agree with.
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post #6 of 45 Old 11-13-2013, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Update.

I've put the samples through some of their paces and this is what I got from it. The shimmering I saw with the JKP samples were actually also visible on the ST 130 samples. It seems to be very dependent on viewing angle though which must have made me not notice it as much before. It's also very much a consequence of the gain and the JKP's more directionality over the stewarts of similar brightness makes it stand out a bit more on those samples.

I also added the Neve, Ultramatte 130 (which should be the same as the ST130) and the Studiotek 100 into the mix. I saw that if one is to be able to benefit from the gain of either the Studiotek 130 or JKP screens one has to be very much in the sweetspot. Just a little bit outside and the gain advantage dissappears compared to a neutral gain screen. In my case with the PJ just over my head and a little bit under the center of the projected image on the wall I needed to stand up next to the PJ to see the added brightness.


Sitting down or going just a bit to the side made all the gain advantage go away. Also noteworthy is that the Carada BW, which has the highest advertised gain had the lowest brightness of all samples. Go figure how they measured that to 1.4...





Going by these results, I'm leaning towards the Neve material. It seems to be very transparent (as much as the ST100), give a slight advantage in brightness, and is cheaper than the other Stewart materials. The cons are I can't get it in 2.40:1 format, which I prefer over 2.35:1 and I comes with a smaller frame. I need to ruminate over it a bit...
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post #7 of 45 Old 11-13-2013, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Going by these results, I'm leaning towards the Neve material. It seems to be very transparent (as much as the ST100), give a slight advantage in brightness, and is cheaper than the other Stewart materials.

I agree it's a very transparent screen. I've been watching mine quite a bit.
Quote:
I sold my Studiotek 130 due to visible sparkles from 15' away with a similar JVC projector (HD250) that was clearly visible in high white level scenes.

I don't find the minimal sheen I see with mine distracting. Did you have the current G3 material ? Then again, I don't watch hockey. I'm sitting 12' away from a 118" wide 2.35:1 ST 130 G3, using a Lumis.

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post #8 of 45 Old 11-15-2013, 03:29 AM
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good man,It seems to be very transparent (as much as the ST100), give a slight advantage in brightness, and is cheaper than the other Stewart materials. The cons are I can't get it in 2.40:1 format, which I prefer over 2.35:1 and I comes with a smaller frame. I need to ruminate over it a bit

Ux

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post #9 of 45 Old 11-15-2013, 11:45 AM
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Here are some measurements from my StudioTek 130 G3 sample and my new JKP HD Progressive 1.3 screen. I projected a 100% white field on my 126" diagonal 1.78 screen and measured x, y, Y using a i1Pro2 meter and ChromaPure. Here's what I got:

Da-Lite JKP HD Pro 1.3
Y=17.3 fL
x=.313
y=.331

Stewart StudioTek 130 G3
Y=14.6 fL
x=.313
y=.330

Although both are specified as having 1.3 gain, the JKP HD Pro 1.3 is significantly brighter, about 18% brighter.
As far as color, they are virtually identical. I calibrated my system last night using the HD Pro 1.3. I would call both screens very color neutral.

As far as sparklies, hotspots, shimmering, they each have a very slight amount. In the case of the StudioTek 130, there are some sparklies that can be seen near the screen. In the case of the HD Pro 1.3, there is a slight shimmering pattern visible right at the screen. These are both very minor IMO, not visible to me (with 20/10 corrected vision) at my seating position of 10 ft which is about 1.9 SH from the screen(very close).

I watched a lot of material last night and I'm very happy with the HD Pro 1.3 material. YMMV.

Bob

Incidentally, I also measured a sample of Carl's Flexi-White, which had looked pretty good to me at first inspection. It didn't fare so well in these measurements.

Carl's Flexi-White
Y=13.0 fL
x=.305
y=.321
Delta E of 4.1
Material has definite shift towards blue compared to the other materials mentioned here.
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post #10 of 45 Old 11-15-2013, 03:56 PM
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Thanks Bob - nice report.

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post #11 of 45 Old 11-16-2013, 03:10 PM
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I've read your comments in the other thread, I don't ignore you Drexler smile.gif,

I use a 120", draper, motorized, tension screen currently for my Pana pt-ae5000, likely to be replaced with the Sony.
Not sure what the gain is, have it a while, bought with a CRT (Sony G70) at that time, but I believe it must be 1.2 or maybe just 1.1.
3D of course is very dim with this setup and from what I've heard it may not be good enough for 3D on the Sony either.

Would one of those 1.3 gains make a big enough difference for 3D or in general?

As the recommendation basically was to get a HP 2.x for 3D and stick to my draper, which in 2D was rather good (IMO) and the Sony is supposed quiet a bit brigher.
But maybe I get a higher gain for a new screen for everything, instead of two different ones?
Although I'm already tempted to go the two screens route.

Opinions?

-Roland
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post #12 of 45 Old 11-17-2013, 04:26 AM
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It's really odd that the Carada BW is appearing darker than your wall. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong side?
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post #13 of 45 Old 11-17-2013, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Roland Janus,

I don't think the 1.3 gain will make much difference for 3D. In my experience you have to set up the projector, screen and viewing position in a specific angle to take advantage of the gain at all (look at my pics in post #6 above and you see that the 1.3 ST is only really brighter compared to the 1.0 ST when viewed from one specific position.). However, If you can use a screen that keep polarization well you can double your 3D brightness through your glasses. The Firehawk does this but have other drawbacks instead (hotspotting, grainy structure, sparklies), but perhaps there are other screens with that property that are better? (DNP screens?) So far, in my experiece, the HP screens are the best bet for bright 3D. If they are good enough for 2D all depends on your specific requirements. There is a slight bead texture that is visible on occasion during pans and it has a narrow viewing cone and slight colorshifts (which I don't really see by eye but are picked up by my meter). If your're OK with that and need a bright screen it's a very good choice. If you e-mail Da-Lite they'll send you screen samples of all the screens you are interested in for free and you can compare and check out for yourself in your specific location and for your viewing angles.


rcohen,

I'm positive it's the right side, there is a print on the front bottom corner saying "Carada Brilliant White"
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post #14 of 45 Old 11-17-2013, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Roland Janus,

I don't think the 1.3 gain will make much difference for 3D. In my experience you have to set up the projector, screen and viewing position in a specific angle to take advantage of the gain at all (look at my pics in post #6 above and you see that the 1.3 ST is only really brighter compared to the 1.0 ST when viewed from one specific position.). However, If you can use a screen that keep polarization well you can double your 3D brightness through your glasses. The Firehawk does this but have other drawbacks instead (hotspotting, grainy structure, sparklies), but perhaps there are other screens with that property that are better? (DNP screens?) So far, in my experiece, the HP screens are the best bet for bright 3D. If they are good enough for 2D all depends on your specific requirements. There is a slight bead texture that is visible on occasion during pans and it has a narrow viewing cone and slight colorshifts (which I don't really see by eye but are picked up by my meter). If your're OK with that and need a bright screen it's a very good choice. If you e-mail Da-Lite they'll send you screen samples of all the screens you are interested in for free and you can compare and check out for yourself in your specific location and for your viewing angles.


rcohen,

I'm positive it's the right side, there is a print on the front bottom corner saying "Carada Brilliant White"


I'm pretty much convinced that quality and price wise the two screen approach is the best one now, also because of the prices for a new good screen.
2.4 gain is about right? Seems that higher or lower increases the negative effects to much.
But I've looked at a local dealer for some of those screens from Da-lite, the prices are just ridicolous, like the price of the Sony itself.

I'd probably stick to pull down only, no tension and no motor, just increases the price to much.
Any other brand to recommend?

I also figured that I put the pj on the wall, just a bit above the viewing position, that should also improve the loss of light for the HP screen due the angle

Thanks!
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post #15 of 45 Old 11-18-2013, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Brian,

What do you have now after you sold the ST, and are you happy with it?

I needed something acoustically transparent and went with the Seymour CenterStage. It is lower gain, but from my 15.5' seating distance I don't see any screen defects--aside from some wrinkling that I've been dealing with in the upper left corner (it is retractable). I decided against a perf screen.

B.
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post #16 of 45 Old 12-15-2013, 08:50 AM
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One question concerning another aspect of the screens that was not mentioned. Years ago in my CRT days I had a Da-Lite screen before I switch to a Stewart screen. The Da-lite screen allowed a tremendous amount of light to penetrate the screen and then wash out the picture due to reflection off the front wall. I had to cover the wall with material that was nonreflective to prevent this from happening. The Stewart screen was much thicker material and there was no light transmission behind the screen. Do any of the current screen materials suffer from transmitted light through the screen?
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post #17 of 45 Old 12-15-2013, 04:43 PM
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Great uniformity, great color balance, and a little gain - just what I expected. Nothing to draw my attention to the screen. I have samples of many other materials, and I'll be comparing them today - especially with the StudioTek 130. But, I'm happy with the screen, and that's saying something. My wife will say I'm never completely happy with anything HT related and she's probably right.

ec5F

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post #18 of 45 Old 04-26-2014, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drexler View Post

Update.

I've put the samples through some of their paces and this is what I got from it. The shimmering I saw with the JKP samples were actually also visible on the ST 130 samples. It seems to be very dependent on viewing angle though which must have made me not notice it as much before. It's also very much a consequence of the gain and the JKP's more directionality over the stewarts of similar brightness makes it stand out a bit more on those samples.

I also added the Neve, Ultramatte 130 (which should be the same as the ST130) and the Studiotek 100 into the mix. I saw that if one is to be able to benefit from the gain of either the Studiotek 130 or JKP screens one has to be very much in the sweetspot. Just a little bit outside and the gain advantage dissappears compared to a neutral gain screen. In my case with the PJ just over my head and a little bit under the center of the projected image on the wall I needed to stand up next to the PJ to see the added brightness.


Sitting down or going just a bit to the side made all the gain advantage go away. Also noteworthy is that the Carada BW, which has the highest advertised gain had the lowest brightness of all samples. Go figure how they measured that to 1.4...





Going by these results, I'm leaning towards the Neve material. It seems to be very transparent (as much as the ST100), give a slight advantage in brightness, and is cheaper than the other Stewart materials. The cons are I can't get it in 2.40:1 format, which I prefer over 2.35:1 and I comes with a smaller frame. I need to ruminate over it a bit...

What did you get at the end? I'm allergic to all form of shimmering and sparkling, even in small amount. Is really the neve free of such artefacts with a gain of 1.1?
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post #19 of 45 Old 04-27-2014, 01:30 PM
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I have the Cinema Contour HD Progressive 1.1 and I do sometimes see sparklies in a brighter scene or highlight especially with a white or very light color. Is this inherent to some limited degree on all screens?

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post #20 of 45 Old 05-02-2014, 12:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Dave,

I thought not but I might be wrong. There's differences between screens though.

Soulnight,
I got the 138'' 2.35:1 Neve screen. Unfortunately there is still a slight shimmering in highlights. I'm starting to think that it might be the screen door of the projector interacting with the screen. It would be interesting to test e-shift and see if it goes away but I unfortunately only have a jvc x35 that lack this feature.
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post #21 of 45 Old 05-02-2014, 03:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I have the Cinema Contour HD Progressive 1.1 and I do sometimes see sparklies in a brighter scene or highlight especially with a white or very light color. Is this inherent to some limited degree on all screens?

is it JKP?
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post #22 of 45 Old 05-02-2014, 12:58 PM
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Yes.

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post #23 of 45 Old 05-04-2014, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Yes.

Surprised, I heard they have good quality screens. I have Elite Cinewhite and I see sparklies in brighter scenes especially in white content
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post #24 of 45 Old 05-04-2014, 04:14 AM
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I think that the only screen that you can BUY that doesn't show ANY sparkles is the stewart snomatt/studiotek 100.

From what I've heard, a PVC matt white screen PAINTED with a BaSO4 (white reference is the world) can do the work as well and is a LOT cheaper!
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post #25 of 45 Old 05-05-2014, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cemo62 View Post

Surprised, I heard they have good quality screens. I have Elite Cinewhite and I see sparklies in brighter scenes especially in white content

It's a great screen otherwise.

They sent me out samples of the .9 and based on those, the sparkles are quite a bit less although still saw hints of it at times. There are a few in the material but not nearly as much as the 1.1. I don't think it will be an issue though so I arranged for a swap. In the projector light with your eyes close to the material, the 1.1 has a lot more sheen compared to the .9.

I also received CCW and BW samples from Carada, but those were dimmer to me even compared to the .9. The light just seems to reflect better on the .9 as the Carada looked a bit more dingy in comparison. Upon closer look, the screen material just seems to be a higher quality than the Carada as well although it should given it's more expensive.

The biggest negative I see is I will be losing notable brightness, but I don't like a very bright image and still have plenty of brightness to spare on my RS4810. I might just have to replace the lamp sooner than I expect down the road, but not concerned right now. The .9 will be in this week hopefully and I will post my impressions. My projector will be getting re-cal'd to it on Friday. smile.gif

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post #26 of 45 Old 05-10-2014, 01:03 PM
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Well, I got the Da-Lite HD Pro .9 screen up yesterday and had Chad B back out to re-calibrate my RS4810 to it.

I've watched a couple of movies and I have to say I just love the HD Pro .9! There is no sparkle to be seen - and at most - there are very slight "hints" of the screen material (sheen?) visible at the brightest areas but you really have to look hard and then you don't know if you're seeing it or not. It's completely a non-issue to me.

All in all, this screen is a huge improvement over the HD Pro 1.1 in regards to what I previously described. I highly recommend the .9 screen if it suits your needs. There is a notable loss of light output coming from 1.1, but I still have brightness to spare on my JVC as I don't like an overly bright image given my set-up.

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post #27 of 45 Old 05-10-2014, 07:08 PM
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Could you possibly post a few screen shots of the HD pro 0.9? I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this screen as well. Thanks and enjoy the screen .
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post #28 of 45 Old 05-12-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcrenshaw7 View Post

Could you possibly post a few screen shots of the HD pro 0.9? I am thinking about pulling the trigger on this screen as well. Thanks and enjoy the screen .

Unfortunately, my cell phone camera isn't the greatest and wouldn't be able to capture much detail.

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post #29 of 45 Old 05-26-2014, 08:41 PM
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can you share how much you paid for the HD Pro .9 and what size/format did you go with?
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post #30 of 45 Old 05-26-2014, 11:40 PM
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can you share how much you paid for the HD Pro .9 and what size/format did you go with?

I went with the Cinema Contour, 108" wide 2:35 screen.

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