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-   -   Draper TecVision MS1000X Grey: ambient light rejection screen (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/1527080-draper-tecvision-ms1000x-grey-ambient-light-rejection-screen.html)

Soulnight 04-12-2014 03:30 PM

Hi,

draper has launched a new product under the label TecVision. It should be the most accomplished screen of draper (better than the MS1000V/react 2.1).

TecVision Family
TecVision surfaces offer unparalleled performance and features that set them apart from the competition.
TecVision surfaces offer wider viewing cones for better off axis viewing
TecVision surfaces feature lower and more consistent gloss levels for less distortion in the picture
TecVision surfaces feature carefully formulated light absorbing dark backing which prevents picture degradation from light behind the screen
TecVision surfaces offer huge savings when compared to the costs of purchasing a projector with increased brightness

MS1000X Grey
MS1000X Grey performs very well in situations where moderate to high ambient light is present.
MS1000X Grey Viewing Surface


Surface characteristics and reflective performance
Maximum Height Without Seams: 180"
Weight (g/sm): 441
Weight (oz/yd2): 13.01
Thickness (mm): 0.36
Cleaning: Mild soap and water
Composition: Flexible PVC
Gain On Axis/0° Gain: 1
Half Gain Angle: 35°






On avforum, someone reported this:
Quote:
Hi All,

Thought I start a thread about my recent experience with a new product from Draper.
Have to say I don't actually own a projector or screen, so knowledge regarding both is still quite little.

I went to an open event at Ideal-Av, which was for the new screen from Draper, also to show off the new range of Epson's projectors.

I never realised that the screen in Allan's light room was a dark grey as it always had an image on it, but always thought the projector what ever he used at the time looked very good.

But after the open day my eyes were opened (no pun intended) to what a difference this new screen makes.

Firstly the dark room, we tried the white version of the new screen, compared to the current screen that’s in Allan's dark room.

I could believe how clear and defined the image was, it seemed to me like the image was being processed when actually it wasn't. Best way to describe what i was seeing is that the image looked like it had been calibrated...:smashin:
Also I went and looked at the image at a extreme angle, the quality of the image was still there..wink.gif

Then we had various 3D demo's which in my view, is WHEN screen showed what it can REALLY DO; the quality of the 3D image IMHO was improved vastly.

The colours prime example was Avatar seemed to be more correct and vivid; also there was an increased sense of depth to the image.

The white screen would be perfect for a genuine dark cinema room, but for customers who don't have that option, the grey finish would be a great solution, we tried a sample of this in framed screen which was used in the dark room and light rooms.

Again I would say it was better in the dark room compared what Allan has in there already (not sure what the make it is), also in the light room; to me it was a better then the Draper React2 which Allan has had for a while now?

So my overall impressions were that this new product has just raised the bar for Draper, as I thought the React2 was great, but this new TecVision MS1000 is better.

Whether you have a dark room or a average light room, there's now a screen that can cater for both, also there is an acoustic transparent versions to come too, even though we got to see a TEASER sample of the grey version, it was just a small sample, not a decent sized framed sample which we used earlier.

I was left so impressed that’s it sown a seed about a possible projector and screen in the future.
So anyone who's looking for a new quality screen, whether for a dark, light or whatever type of room I would put the TecVision MS1000 on top of your list.

Thanks Phil.
Last edited: Mar 27, 2014


Looks very promising. Especially because I've seen the Draper React 2.1 (MS1000V) material, and it was already very good, and this one should be even better!

HAS anyone seen it?

ch1sox 04-12-2014 04:46 PM

I was looking at it, but ultimately went with the xs850e (amazing screen) because that's what they recommended.

noah katz 04-14-2014 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulnight View Post

TecVision surfaces offer huge savings when compared to the costs of purchasing a projector with increased brightness

? this screen has a gain of 1, what are they talking about?

barleyguy 09-25-2014 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 24605407)
Quote: Originally Posted by Soulnight http://www.avsforum.com/img/forum/go_quote.gif

TecVision surfaces offer huge savings when compared to the costs of purchasing a projector with increased brightness


? this screen has a gain of 1, what are they talking about?

What they are talking about is that the MS1000X has very good ambient light rejection, so in a room that's not totally dark, it might work better with a dim projector than a white screen would.

Sam Ash 02-04-2015 02:58 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Any further / recent comparisons between the MS1000X and the ReAct 2.1 ?

Andrew67 02-04-2015 04:31 PM

Are there online retailers where TecVision MS1000X Grey screens are available for purchase?

Swolephile 10-17-2015 02:10 AM

I'm interested in this screen material. Is this being displayed at Cedia this weekend?

Swolephile 12-08-2015 04:26 AM

Still waiting for more info on this screen.

Swolephile 12-08-2015 04:08 PM

Hard to gauge how well this screen can preserve black levels. It looks washed out in every video I see of it online. Also, in the product pic on Draper.com it appears to be a dark grey however in the videos it appears to be a very light gray colored material.







Swolephile 12-29-2015 11:15 PM

I have two samples of the Draper Tecvision MS1000x here. I am really impressed with how well they preserve black levels and from what I can see their off axis viewing is not bad at all. I'm a bit nervous to pull the trigger on this because most dealers will not accept returns on this item.

I also wanted the profile frame however Draper is behind in production on them.

LumenChip 12-30-2015 04:25 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Swolephile (Post 40149282)
I have two samples of the Draper Tecvision MS1000x here. I am really impressed with how well they preserve black levels and from what I can see their off axis viewing is not bad at all. I'm a bit nervous to pull the trigger on this because most dealers will not accept returns on this item.

I also wanted the profile frame however Draper is behind in production on them.


Did you have a chance to evaluate the HX900X, on paper it appears to be the better all-rounder and will be brighter at 15+ degrees viewing angle.

Swolephile 12-30-2015 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LumenChip (Post 40171306)
Did you have a chance to evaluate the HX900X, on paper it appears to be the better all-rounder and will be brighter at 15+ degrees viewing angle.

It might be from their european lines? There is no info about it on their U.S. website.

stephen77 12-30-2015 07:58 PM

241 Attachment(s)
The Draper React & the XS850E (I think thats the correct model name) is the only material Draper has that could be truly justified as being a true ALR screen. Ive tested everything else that they have & while many of them do have broad viewing cones they dont have very strong ALR Performance. Granted they may be slightly darker then a typical contrast gray screen but not by much. Several of them are ISF certified which would definitely promote a very accurate image in a dedicated theater along with improved blacks & color saturation from the gray material but as soon as the lights are cut on those black levels will diminish greatly. The MS1000X could probably handle a couple small table lamps on dimmers in the back of the room but not much more then that before the image takes a noticeable hit.

Swolephile 12-30-2015 10:02 PM

Odd. Since it was $600 more than the MS1000V React material in my quote. In this thread over at avforum, one member stated he could clearly see a difference between the MS1000x and MS1000V with the 1000X being better.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/tec...s1000.1868753/

MS1000X was also reviewed here by Projector People

http://www.projectorcentral.com/drap...00x_review.htm


The Slate 1.2's alr qualities did not impress me at all. The Black Diamond 1.4 was a good middle ground but it had lots of screen artifacts. The Black Diamond .8 was the black level champ from what I could see however I would need a 3000 lumen projector to light one up to it's full potential. The DNP.8 had great black levels and the most natural looking image but it would also need a 3000 lumen plus light cannon to look it's best.

I did not want to go back to another Black Diamond screen however it appears to be my only major option.

Swolephile 01-07-2016 10:12 PM

I was set to purchase the Tekvision MS1000X material however the guys over avforum state the new React 3.0 material retains contrast better than the more expensive Tecvision material. So there goes that idea.

stephen77 01-07-2016 11:20 PM

241 Attachment(s)
Ya the react & the XS850E is Drapers more agressive ALR solution. Here is what it looks like compared to the React 2.0 (far left), CineGrey 5D (center), & Draper MS1000X (far right). The CineGrey 5D is still slightly darker in shade to the Draper MS1000X but much more reflective with its 1.5 gain. The React matches the 1.0 gain of the MS1000X but is darker giving it greater ALR performance. Even though the CineGrey 5D maybe slightly darker then the MS1000X...its higher 1.5 gain material doesnt allow for a deeper black then the MS1000X in ambient light. I tried my best to get accurate pictures but its tough dealing with the reflectivity of the material. The MS1000X definitely has the most texture of any material that I have so thats something to look out for as well. If you want me to compare it to anything else I can. I have BD .8, BD 1.4, SLate .8, Slate 1.2, DNP 08-85, DNP 23-23, & Seymours Screen Excellence Ambient Visionaire 1.3. Attachment 1171178

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Swolephile 01-07-2016 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40438074)
Ya the react & the XS850E is Drapers more agressive ALR solution. Here is what it looks like compared to the React 2.0 (far left), CineGrey 5D (center), & Draper MS1000X (far right). The CineGrey 5D is still slightly darker in shade to the Draper MS1000X but much more reflective with its 1.5 gain. The React matches the 1.0 gain of the MS1000X but is darker giving it greater ALR performance. Even though the CineGrey 5D maybe slightly darker then the MS1000X...its higher 1.5 gain material doesnt allow for a deeper black then the MS1000X in ambient light. I tried my best to get accurate pictures but its tough dealing with the reflectivity of the material. The MS1000X definitely has the most texture of any material that I have so thats something to look out for as well. If you want me to compare it to anything else I can. I have BD .8, BD 1.4, SLate .8, Slate 1.2, DNP 08-85, DNP 23-23, & Seymours Screen Excellence Ambient Visionaire 1.3. Attachment 1171178

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Thank you. What are your thoughts on the DNP 23-23 material?

stephen77 01-08-2016 12:10 AM

241 Attachment(s)
Its bright...Im more of a preserving contrast & black levels kind of guy instead of trying to find the brightness image. For a high gain material it has excellent viewing angles but the DNP 08-85 is more my taste due to its ALR Performance & black levels. Whats the point in all that brightness if everything is washed out.

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Swolephile 01-09-2016 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40438602)
Its bright...Im more of a preserving contrast & black levels kind of guy instead of trying to find the brightness image. For a high gain material it has excellent viewing angles but the DNP 08-85 is more my taste due to its ALR Performance & black levels. Whats the point in all that brightness if everything is washed out.

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I agree. I dont understand why people purchase high gain alr screens that will wash out under dim lighting. Ive owned the Black Diamond, Silver Ticket alr material,Elite Screens Cinegrey 3D, and S.I. Slate screens.

I have samples from Seymour MB, MS, AV 1.2, AV 1.3, and Draper Tecvision MS1000X. I'm running out of alr options and I need a screen soon.

bud16415 01-09-2016 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swolephile (Post 40486754)
I agree. I dont understand why people purchase high gain alr screens that will wash out under dim lighting. Ive owned the Black Diamond, Silver Ticket alr material,Elite Screens Cinegrey 3D, and S.I. Slate screens.

I have samples from Seymour MB, MS, AV 1.2, AV 1.3, and Draper Tecvision MS1000X. I'm running out of alr options and I need a screen soon.

Why do people put so much faith in the claims of ALR at the screen. A screen is a passive device and can only do so much. I just watched the videos linked above and the claims are no different than the other manufactures videos so I will use these as example but they all say the same thing. In terms of gain they always say they have amazing gain capabilities 1.3, 1.5, 1.8 etc and then they add theirs do it with virtually no drop off in brightness off axis. Where does the extra light come from then? The screen is passive it cant make light if its sending more to the viewer in the center seat the guy 5 seats over has to get less.

They then boost up the gain on a dark screen and do a comparison with a white piece of something totally not calibrated to the projector and show you how washed out the image is if it wasn’t their magic material. The stuff they are projecting is this vivid ANSI like in spots at least and what you are seeing is mostly perception.

You never quite know the projector being used and how much of a light cannon it is and the screens are smallish large. They put ambient sources directly above or to the sides to skip the light off the screen with the same gain they boost the image from the projector. If they take the dark / black screen approach they ether need super lumens to light up the dark screen or add something into the coating that has super reflectance in tiny amounts. The screen looks dark but reflects like it is white and in most cases shimmers. The better ones do a bit of both together, but still any ambient coming from the direction of the projector is going to look worse not better. The screen can’t tell good light from bad.

The part of the video I always like to see and it happens at some point in most of them is when the guy talking causes a shadow of himself on the screen. That’s when you should stop the video and take a good look. His shadow is the best absolute black you could ever get. I always pause the picture and take my color picker tool and measure the shadow. Then I look for something black in the video most of the time it’s the frame around the screen. That will tell you how good the vid cam taking the movie was and the comparison of the two black numbers will give you an idea at how good the CR could be at best.

I get every bit as good of ALR with my .5 gain gray painted screen when I hit the screen with about 50 FL of projected light at home. Only when I take my screen shots showing ALR I point 225 watts of flood lights straight at the screen from under the projector. I figure that’s close to having two projectors on at the same time one with an image one with just white. The beauty of gray is it doesn’t care where the ambient source is coming from and the field of view is uniform like a unity screen.

I think people are hoping for a miracle when it comes to front projection and ALR. The screen is passive and the only thing you can do to fight it is more lumens at the projector. The same amount of rebound ambient comes off of my screen as would a white screen with half the lumens but when it returns half is attenuated into the screen and half comes back to the room.

All they have to work with is angular or retro reflectance as gain and grayness really. They often talk about RGB filtering layer and such but when you see them demo-ed they all seem to employ the same old stuff.

That’s a lot of screens you have tried.

stephen77 01-09-2016 07:22 PM

241 Attachment(s)
A common misconception that I frequently see is that brighter is better. Most People will get 2 samples, one being brighter then the other, & stick them both up to the screen. Then they'll immediately think the higher gain version is better because its brighter. Of course thats what naturally draws the eye but what their failing to look at is the demenished contrast & black levels which I personally think determines picture performance . This test is also quite commonly done in low-no ambient light ,so not only does the higher gain version look brighter, it appears to have similar black levels too. First impressions are everything & that first test normally seals the lower gain materials fate.

Sometimes you will see a second test during lighter hours (on the testers day off) that reveals seemingly different results. The higher gain image doesnt look so appealing now & the preserved contrast of the darker lower gain material is actually yielding an image that actually appears brighter. The reson for this is because the details of the image are more defined then the lighter washed out higher gain sample. The contrast has also been preserved better & the richness of all the colors are also more adequate on the darker lower gain ALR materials. This all equates to a better performing image that is seemingly more visable in the midst of ambient light.

What was the biggest issue with all the previous screens you owned? Seems like you had quite the assortment of different ALR technologies. If you owned all those screens, then why were you considering the lighter MS1000X? You must be searching for better viewing angles because thats the only advantage the MS1000X has over your previous screens & ISF color accuracy. ALR screens can be tricky because you want to have your cake & eat it too. You want amazing ALR performance with no caveats so your left trying to find the perfect screen that gets as close to that criteria as possible. Unfortunately physics wont allow that to be possible so it comes down to whats more important to you & thats agressive ALR performance or broader Viewing angles? I guess most of us are left trying to find they perfect medium.

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Dave in Green 01-10-2016 11:12 AM

Every front projection screen made has compromises that will not please all viewers all the time under all viewing conditions. Finding the screen design with compromises that bother you the least is no easy task.

stephen77 01-10-2016 07:15 PM

241 Attachment(s)
Attachment 1177282Attachment 1177290Attachment 1177322
Just for reference here are a few comparison shots with the MS1000X (left) & a more agressive ALR material on the right. This is why I had my doubts about the ALR Performance of the MS1000X. It may still make for a decent demonstration in comparison to a white screen but compared to other ALR screens on the market its not the strongest contender.

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bud16415 01-10-2016 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40526650)
Attachment 1177282Attachment 1177290Attachment 1177322
Just for reference here are a few comparison shots with the MS1000X (left) & a more agressive ALR material on the right. This is why I had my doubts about the ALR Performance of the MS1000X. It may still make for a decent demonstration in comparison to a white screen but compared to other ALR screens on the market its not the strongest contender.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

What direction and angle was the AL coming from in your example?

stephen77 01-10-2016 07:26 PM

241 Attachment(s)
To be honest I took those a while ago & cant remember exactly but anytime I do a test I make sure both sides of the material are getting equal amounts of ambient light.

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bud16415 01-10-2016 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40526978)
To be honest I took those a while ago & cant remember exactly but anytime I do a test I make sure both sides of the material are getting equal amounts of ambient light.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

By the direction of the shadows in the photos it looks like the AL is coming in somewhat of the same direction as the projected light. A screen cant tell the difference in projected or ambient coming at it from the direction of the projector. If the ALR properties are caused by angular gain trying to brighten the light returning to the center of the viewers and skipping AL coming from the side off the other side and not to the viewers a test such as yours will show an ALR screen sample hurts more than it helps compared to a simple gray.

stephen77 01-11-2016 11:29 PM

241 Attachment(s)
I agree that an ALR screen is much more affected by AL when its coming from the direction of the projector but it will still retain a better on axis image then a typical contrast gray screen. This is due to the ALR screens darker surface coupled with efficient gain.

bud16415 01-12-2016 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40564522)
I agree that an ALR screen is much more affected by AL when its coming from the direction of the projector but it will still retain a better on axis image then a typical contrast gray screen. This is due to the ALR screens darker surface coupled with efficient gain.

I don’t see it that way. If the ambient and projected light come from the same direction and the screen is dark and also has on axis gain the gain will boast the ambient light as compared to a darker screen without the gain. By the very nature of using a non-gain or a sub 1.0 gain neutral gray screen you are assuming that you are projecting additional lumens to make up for the non-gain. In that case the ambient will be both absorbed and scattered away from the viewer showing an overall darker black level and the extra lumens will provide the white level stay up.

You can’t do such a test side by side because of course you need to different intensities of light to calibrate to.

stephen77 01-12-2016 03:26 PM

241 Attachment(s)
Ive got a feeling that the lower gain gray screen you are speaking of isnt your typical manufacterd contrast gray material. I presume you are talking about a much darker gray, compared to most materials & has a slightly lower gain as well? Now im not that guy that believes all contrast gray screens are ALR Screens, but I do believe that once a matetial reaches a certain level of darkness it can have strong ALR abilities.

Correct me if im wrong but It seems like the screen you may be discussing might be a darker gray screen with a lower gain output & if its hit with enough lumens it will yield a moderately bright image. Most of the short throw ALR screens use that same concept & even though the screen may just be a .5 gain the concentration of light is so intense coming from the short throw projector... it still yields a bright vivid image. Also due to their exceedingly dark surface the image is also met with amazing contrast & black levels along with some of the best ALR performance.


Now... if you are talking about a darker lower gain material, such as the one I just described, then I could see the possibility that AL could effect the other higher gain ALR screen more. The greater reflective properties of the more aggressive ALR screen would in fact return more of the reflected AL back to the viewer.

But lets be honest... we are now simply discussing the differences between 2 ALR screens, in 2 totally different setups. Because the .5 gain material is going to have twice the lumen or light concentration then the ALR setup that has a 1.0 gain. Im going to leave it at that for now & wait for you to respond instead of continuing to assume anymore.

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bud16415 01-13-2016 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen77 (Post 40585466)
Ive got a feeling that the lower gain gray screen you are speaking of isnt your typical manufacterd contrast gray material. I presume you are talking about a much darker gray, compared to most materials & has a slightly lower gain as well? Now im not that guy that believes all contrast gray screens are ALR Screens, but I do believe that once a matetial reaches a certain level of darkness it can have strong ALR abilities.

Correct me if im wrong but It seems like the screen you may be discussing might be a darker gray screen with a lower gain output & if its hit with enough lumens it will yield a moderately bright image. Most of the short throw ALR screens use that same concept & even though the screen may just be a .5 gain the concentration of light is so intense coming from the short throw projector... it still yields a bright vivid image. Also due to their exceedingly dark surface the image is also met with amazing contrast & black levels along with some of the best ALR performance.


Now... if you are talking about a darker lower gain material, such as the one I just described, then I could see the possibility that AL could effect the other higher gain ALR screen more. The greater reflective properties of the more aggressive ALR screen would in fact return more of the reflected AL back to the viewer.

But lets be honest... we are now simply discussing the differences between 2 ALR screens, in 2 totally different setups. Because the .5 gain material is going to have twice the lumen or light concentration then the ALR setup that has a 1.0 gain. Im going to leave it at that for now & wait for you to respond instead of continuing to assume anymore.

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You are absolutely correct. The degree of light attenuation of a neutral gray screen without any gain properties, so basically scattering light the same way a 1.0 unity white screen would is what I’m talking about. The degree of light attenuation isn’t important only in so much as the more it attenuates the better the ALR is and in turn the more light it takes from the projector to produce a proper image for the eyes. This type of screen is exactly doing the same thing as placing a ND filter over the lens but with the exception of causing ALR. The first order of ALR with the source coming from any direction with a 50% neutral gray would be to eliminate half the ambient light. The half that scatters into the room will somewhat be attenuated by the room and some will return to the screen. The second order returning light will once again be attenuated by half and so on.

In my case my screen is painted as it was simple and no one offers such a dark screen without boosted gain. My screen is a 50% neutral gray as are my walls. My ceiling is painted flat black and as much as I would like to call it a 100% neutral gray it would be more like 90% as is my floor. So as you can see stray light from my lighting and rebound from the screen is quickly gone. The ambient light that causes PQ losses because of the wide dispersion of the screen has to be coming from a source that its primary reflection comes back directly to the viewer’s eyes via the screen and even then only half will return. Along with designing the darker screen darker room setup I wanted light as to not feel I was in the dark. And the light in some ways acts as bias lighting and can maybe aid in perception of contrast as well. The main purpose of the added in light is to not shine in the viewer’s eyes but illuminate what they may like light for, mainly pizza and beer or to give the viewing of things like sporting events a social feel rather than the conventional movie theater personal feel.

What I have learned is this type of ALR works as well with all the lights out as any other screen. I prefer to set presets in my projector such that my lights out viewing the returning light intensity is movie theater like with the lights out so hit the screen with 30FL and view 15FL image. For the brighter room bias effect if I had to guess it would be more like 50FL / 25FL and replace some of the low light true CR with a bit more perceived CR, and that type CR works really well with bright TV shows and sports.

A couple reasons this worked out well for me for the last 10 years is way back they had some really bright DLP business projectors with RGBW color wheels my screen sizes were pretty big but not huge when I first got into this 120” 4:3 is where I started. Now a days lumens are easier to find as people seem to want massive screen sizes at home now. I’m now viewing a 110” 16:9 image and there were dozens of DLP’s to pick from. On a lark I tried a RGBCYW color wheel projector that made enough pure RGB lumens to support the lights out mode. And the RGBCYW lumens are really bright and of decent quality for the lights up mode.

It’s been working out pretty good and when people see the image they are normally surprised and ask me I always thought a room has to be real dark for these things to work? I tell them oh not anymore they have figured out how to project black light now.

So yes you are right in your conclusion 2 different modes and they can’t be compared side by side. One way you pay more for a screen the other pay more in terms of light. One interesting side note to this the RGBCYW projector uses less electricity to make the lumens so I might be using more lumens but not more power. :)


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