High Power screen material supply issues? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 12:31 PM
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Craig, is the biggest issue with higher gain screens is seeing more sparkles?

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post #32 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Craig, is the biggest issue with higher gain screens is seeing more sparkles?

That and the narrow viewing cone. A narrow viewing cone is not an issue if you have a only a couple of seats in the middle of the screen. In my case my seating is wider than the screen. It all depends on ones theater layout.

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post #33 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 04:14 PM
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While I remain hopefull I am also dubious that Da-lite will resolve the issues with the HP and re-introduce it down the track.

Craig - do you have any experience/assessment of the Draper Pearl White, particularly in comparison to the ultramatte 150 or StudioTek 130 G3?
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post #34 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blkblzr00 View Post

I just received a 133" HP screen earlier this week. I had been waiting for about a month and was surprised when it shipped. I assumed they had figured out their supply issue but maybe I need to open up the box and make sure they didn't send me the wrong screen.

I just remembered to look today and sure enough it appears the screen I received is a High Power Screen. I don't have a projector yet so I haven't put the screen together yet. Hopefully there are no issues with it as I don't really want to wait several months for a replacement (unless it is improved that is).
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post #35 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

There is the Stewart Ultramatt 150 - http://stewartfilmscreen.com/residential/materials/front_projection_screen_materials/ultramatte_150/ultramatte_150_residential.html

I'm not a fan of high gain screens myself ( StudioTek 130 G3 is my favorite screen with gain, and that's as high as I go ), but I thought the UltraMatt that JVC was using in the JVC suite at Cedia looked really good.

Thanks for the tip. The 150 is 1.5 gain, but it looks like Stewart also offers an Ultramatt 200, which is 2.0 gain. I'll have to do some more research on those options.

EDIT: I find it's quite impossible to find any pricing information on the Stewart screens without first contacting a rep for a quote. That in and of itself probably tells me it's going to be more $$$ than I'll want to fork out for a secondary screen for 3D use only.
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post #36 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 06:21 PM
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I don't think it's fair to make a blanket statement that all high-gain screens have problems with sparkles.  Most HP owners have been pretty adamant about not seeing sparkles.  Narrower viewing cone, on the other hand, is by definition part of any high-gain screen.  In simplest terms, high-gain screens take the reflected light that is normally scattered throughout the room (creating a wide viewing angle) and focus it in a narrower beam (creating a narrower viewing angle).  It's really all about reflected light management.  The fact that the HP design does this so well compared with other designs suggests to me that it will eventually return, if not from Da-Lite (or Draper), then from another company.

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post #37 of 64 Old 05-21-2014, 07:48 PM
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I used to own a 2.8 High Power screen. I could occasionally see one random super bright sparklie.

If anyone want samples of the Stewart high gain materials ( and / or quotes ), let me know!

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post #38 of 64 Old 05-22-2014, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I used to own a 2.8 High Power screen. I could occasionally see one random super bright sparklie.

If anyone want samples of the Stewart high gain materials ( and / or quotes ), let me know!

Those occasional sparklies on the 2.8 are cause by a micro bead that is pulled up out of the lower substrate. Gently rubbing the area with a cloth can eliminate the sparkly, or at least reduce it. Only ever see them when I walk up to the screen with a white pattern displayed..
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post #39 of 64 Old 05-22-2014, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Those occasional sparklies on the 2.8 are cause by a micro bead that is pulled up out of the lower substrate. Gently rubbing the area with a cloth can eliminate the sparkly, or at least reduce it. Only ever see them when I walk up to the screen with a white pattern displayed..

You can also get a single sparkle if the angle is just right between the lens and your eyes. If that ever happens, just move your head slightly and it will be gone.

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post #40 of 64 Old 05-22-2014, 08:40 AM
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Sure, but it always took me out of the movie. And I did see it with regular program material - not test patterns.
Quote:
Those occasional sparklies on the 2.8 are cause by a micro bead that is pulled up out of the lower substrate. Gently rubbing the area with a cloth can eliminate the sparkly, or at least reduce it. Only ever see them when I walk up to the screen with a white pattern displayed..
I could see this from a normal seating distance with normal program material. The High Power screen is a good screen, but all screens with gain have downsides / limitations. You can't violate the laws of physics. You want a bright picture with no downsides, get a Stewart StudioTek 100 and a bright enough projector to properly light it up - whether that's a Sony VW1100 or our new AV Science Laser 3C 11,000 lumen projector. And don't forget to paint the room flat black !

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post #41 of 64 Old 05-24-2014, 08:17 AM
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I guess we should all be open to HP alternatives in case it never returns.  Heck, I've been open to alternative screens for years and have read thousands and thousands of posts on the subject right here.  To the best of my knowledge, there is no close alternative to HP in its price range.  But maybe I missed something.  I started years ago with a plain matte white 1.0 gain Draper manual pull down that came bundled with my first projector.  It lit up the room like a searchlight and light reflected back to the screen washed out the blacks.  I went to a plain gray .8 gain Draper manual pull down and it reduced the reflected light problem and improved blacks at the cost of losing white pop.  I'm looking for a screen that provides the best of both of those screens at a cost in the HP price range.  Here are the specifics:

 

* Family room open to kitchen (no wall between) with no option to darken white ceiling, medium colored walls or medium light colored carpet.

 

* Panasonic PT-AX200U projector (to be replaced with a new 1080p projector in a couple of years when newly installed lamp wears out).

 

* Projector mounted on low table (no option for ceiling mount) between two chairs with my wife and I the only viewers.

 

* 10 feet from table and chairs to 92" diagonal 16:9 manual screen set up in front of 50" plasma used for most casual TV viewing (no option for fixed screen).

 

* Mostly used for watching movies at night but occasionally used to watch sports on cloudy days (ambient light from windows can be reduced but not totally controlled).

 

I'm sure there are others like me who have a similar setup that's ideal for a retroreflective screen and cannot justify paying thousands for one of the fancy ones.  Over the years many with similar situations have posted right here that HP delivered what they were looking for at a reasonable cost.  To the best of my knowledge there's never been a clear consensus on the best alternative to HP in its price range.  Anyone have any candidates?

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post #42 of 64 Old 05-30-2014, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by byancey View Post

I've been considering investing in a high-gain screen pretty much since I built my Home Theater about 10 years ago...but my specially prepared projection wall painted with Behr Premium Ultra White actually makes an excellent 1.0 gain screen, and given that my room is completely light controlled, I haven't been able to justify the cost or need for a higher gain screen. I just recently upgraded to a projector with 3D support, and while the image is more than bright enough in 2D, I find brightness to be borderline acceptable in 3D. My setup requires a very long throw (~21'), so I'm already losing quite a bit of light output due to the physics of focal length/f-stop. Finally decided to pull the trigger on a HP electric, which I could drop-down and use to get an extra punch specifically for 3D movies. Rotten timing, as the talk of supply issues started showing up just as I started seriously considering the purchase. I managed to find a supplier that had one screen in the size I needed listed with a 1-2 day lead vs the typical 7-10 days, and I placed on order in the hope that they had one sitting in a warehouse ready to ship. Just checked-in with them today, and was informed that the screen drop-ships from da-lite, who is currently having supply issues. I'm a bit disappointed, but not terribly surprised by this outcome.

So, the salesman I talked to regarding my "back-ordered" HP screen convinced me to hold off on cancelling my order while I investigated alternatives, as they don't bill your CC until the order actually ships. Seemed reasonable, and with talk of HP not coming back until Q4, if at all, I figured I'd just let the order sit. Well, to my surprise, my wife got a call from a trucking company today to verify that someone would be there to receive and inspect a delivery tomorrow between 8AM and 11AM. I didn't get an e-mail indicating anything had shipped, but I just checked the status on the site where I ordered the screen, and it is indeed marked as shipped with a tracking number provided. Looks like I'll be taking delivery of something tomorrow. Guess I'll need to verify that it's actually High Power before I accept the delivery. I see that user blkblzr00 received shipment of a HP screen just in the past several weeks, which he confirmed was HP. I think he placed his order nearly a month back, and mine was only placed the week before last. Guess they're still able to fulfill a limited number of orders. In any case, I'll post a follow-up once the screen arrives and I've verified it's actually HP.
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post #43 of 64 Old 05-31-2014, 09:42 AM
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Makes sense that Da-Lite might remove all mention of HP from their website while still having a small amount left in stock to handle the few orders that might still be coming in.  There hasn't been a lot of commentary on the forum lately from new HP owners, so it will be interesting to see reviews from the new owners in this thread.

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post #44 of 64 Old 06-01-2014, 10:25 PM
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I can confirm that the screen that was shipped to me was indeed the High Power fabric. I spent the weekend getting the screen hung and wired up and was finally able to lower the screen and watch some demo material earlier today. I'm very pleased with the results. The sample I based the purchase on was actually a 1 foot square of the 2.8 gain version I've had on hand for years, so I was a little worried about how much difference I would see with the 2.4 fabric. I was also a bit concerned about the apparent quality control issues that led to the fabric being pulled. Neither of those concerns turned out to be an issue. I'm getting a nice pop in brightness for 3D viewing in the "zone" with much less drop-off on the edges than I expected. I also threw up some test patterns and demo material specifically looking for any flaws in the screen. Near as I can tell, everything is perfect. No signs of banding or other issues that have been reported. After failing to find any suitable alternative over the past few weeks, I'm feeling pretty fortunate that I went ahead and placed the order, and didn't cancel when I was informed the fabric was back-ordered with no ETA. smile.gif
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post #45 of 64 Old 06-06-2014, 07:57 AM
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byancey, thanks for sharing your early impressions of HP 2.4.  I see that you were previously using a DIY painted white screen.  I'm curious about your perception of blacks on the retroreflective screen compared with your painted white screen.  You mentioned earlier that your room was light-controlled.  Do you have dark or light walls, ceiling and floor?  One of the benefits of the retroreflective screen should be less light reflected from the screen to the walls/ceiling/floor and back to the screen.  While presenting a brighter image to your viewing position does the new screen appear to light up the room less?  Any other impressions about colors, overall image quality, etc.?

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post #46 of 64 Old 06-08-2014, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post

byancey, thanks for sharing your early impressions of HP 2.4.  I see that you were previously using a DIY painted white screen.  I'm curious about your perception of blacks on the retroreflective screen compared with your painted white screen.  You mentioned earlier that your room was light-controlled.  Do you have dark or light walls, ceiling and floor?  One of the benefits of the retroreflective screen should be less light reflected from the screen to the walls/ceiling/floor and back to the screen.  While presenting a brighter image to your viewing position does the new screen appear to light up the room less?  Any other impressions about colors, overall image quality, etc.?

Here's a brief description of my home theater. The main viewing area is about 20' deep with the projector mounted in an A/V room behind the back wall. The ceiling is 8' high. There are two rows of theater seating along the back wall about 6' apart, with the back row raised 1' higher than the front row. The front wall is about 12' wide and has been specifically prepared as a projection surface and painted with Behr Ultra Premium White paint (a long-standing favorite for DIY screens). A custom 4-way adjustable masking system has been installed on the front wall and is able to accommodate any size or aspect ratio of image up to about 10' wide and 5' high. I currently run in a "constant area" configuration using the auto focus/zoom memories and image shift functionality on my Panasonic PT-AE9000U to switch between a 126" diagonal scope image and a 117" diagonal 16:9 image. The ceiling has been painted matte black and the walls are painted a deep matte purple. All A/V equipment is located outside of the viewing area and there are no windows. This is a room that has been created for one purpose...watching movies. smile.gif

I've actually spent that last two weekends making modifications to the theater to accommodate the new screen. Last weekend after the screen was mounted and wired up I adjust my masking system so that the screen is able to drop down behind the masking, allowing the existing masking mechanism to be used whether projecting on the wall or the screen. This weekend, to maximize the benefits of the retroreflective screen, I went ahead and dropped the position of my projector from near the ceiling to just above head-level of the back row (a drop of about 3 feet). Gotta be a bit more careful about getting your head in the image when you stand up now, but I'd estimate with that adjustment that 4 seats are getting the full 2.4 gain, 4 seats are probably getting around 2 gain, and the outer two seats on the front row that used to see around .9 gain are probably now getting around 1.5 gain. In addition, I also discovered an unexpected benefit of moving my projector lower. With my lens shift in the neutral position, focus uniformity is much better.

I've run some tests with the screen in the half down position, allowing me to make some comparisons between my 1 gain projection wall and the 2.4 gain high power. If I do a side-by-side with a mostly black image, the blacks are definitely lighter on the high power. No question about it. However, there is also a perceptible bump in static contrast ratio, as brighter areas of the screen tend to light up more than darker areas. If I'm not viewing the image side-by-side, it doesn't feel like the blacks are significantly lighter, and with anything other than a mostly black screen the perceived black levels actually seem better due to the improved contrast ratio.

Regarding colors and white, my wife commented while viewing side-by-side that the 1 gain image actually seemed a bit muddy in comparison to the 2.4 gain image. I agree. Whites and colors tend to pop a lot more on the High Power. As an example, in a scene from Avatar where Dr. Augustine's white lab coat is visible, it looks white in the areas projected on the high power, and almost light grey on the 1 gain white wall. I also noticed that I'm now able to have the back row of ceiling lights turned on with almost no washout of the screen image, a sign that the screen is doing a great job of rejecting off-axis light. The inverse is also true. My son left his Dr. Who Sonic Screwdriver in the theater and my wife picked it up and shined it at the screen. The dim blue LED on that thing literally lit up the screen. smile.gif I haven't really tried to make an observation as to whether or not the walls in the theater are less lit-up by reflected light, but intuitively, if more light is finding it's way to my seats, less light should be finding it's way to the walls. smile.gif

I've had my sample square of the 2.8 HP material for 5 or 6 years now, and once or twice a year I've pulled out out and considered upgrading. Prior to having a 3D projector, I haven't been able to justify the purchase as my projectors have been able to put out more than enough light in the light-controlled environment. However, now that I have it installed, it may be the single most impactfull upgrade I've ever made to my equipment. I certainly do hope Dalite finds a way to bring this fabric back. It would be good to know that if anything ever happened to my screen I wouldn't be completely out of luck in finding a replacement.
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post #47 of 64 Old 06-09-2014, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byancey View Post



I've had my sample square of the 2.8 HP material for 5 or 6 years now, and once or twice a year I've pulled out out and considered upgrading. .

Whatever you do, Don't hang the 2.8 sample on your new 2.4 screen and sit in the sweet spot.. you may just be even more disappointed you didn't do this years ago..
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post #48 of 64 Old 06-09-2014, 10:00 AM
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byancy, great description.  You have the kind of theater layout that many of us can only dream about.  With your dark walls/ceiling/floor you probably wouldn't notice much improvement from the retroreflective screen lighting up the room less as much as those of us with lighter-colored rooms would.  Since you didn't mention it, I'm assuming that you didn't change your projector settings when you made your side-by-side comparison, and that your projector is still optimized for the 1.0 gain white screen.  If you have a display calibration disk, it might be interesting to see if any changes are needed in your projector settings to optimize for HP.  Good to hear that you're happy with the HP.  You aren't the only one hoping for its return.

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post #49 of 64 Old 06-10-2014, 05:06 AM
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My 126" Cinema Contour HP screen just shipped. Sadly, I won't get to see it for a month. It's being delivered to our new home in Arizona and we don't move out of our Denver home for a few more weeks. Normally I would have waited to place the order until after we moved, but I was concerned that Da-Lite might discontinue the HP fabric if they couldn't sort out the manufacturing problems. Bad timing on the delivery, but it's good to know that I got it... smile.gif
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post #50 of 64 Old 06-10-2014, 08:53 AM
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I just noticed in the latest AccuCal update that Jeff Meier rates HP 2.4 best in class among high gain materials ahead of HP 2.8.  "This material is highly recommended if you need a boost in light output and reduction in reflection from walls" is a pretty strong recommendation from a pro who has tested just about every screen material option.  According to Jeff's description of the two HPs, the primary advantage of 2.4 over 2.8 appears to be that 2.4 is more color neutral on axis.

 

www.accucalhd.com/documents/accucal_front_projection_screen_report.pdf

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post #51 of 64 Old 06-10-2014, 09:47 AM
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Thanks Dave - I had not seen Jeff's updated screen guide yet - the HD Pro and Neve updates are interesting !

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post #52 of 64 Old 06-14-2014, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byancey View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Dave in Green [URL="http://www.avsforum.com/t/1527313/high-power-screen-material-supply-issues/30#post_24799682"]However, there is also a perceptible bump in static contrast ratio, as brighter areas of the screen tend to light up more than darker areas. If I'm not viewing the image side-by-side, it doesn't feel like the blacks are significantly lighter, and with anything other than a mostly black screen the perceived black levels actually seem better due to the improved contrast ratio.
Given your dark walls, chances are that the improved contrast is only perceived, not actual, but is consistent with many people's experience of a brighter image seeming to have more contrast.

Noah
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post #53 of 64 Old 07-16-2014, 09:26 AM
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I just saw this thread and thought I would add in my observations/thoughts re HP's. I had the original 2.8 version (110x62) for ~2-3 yrs and liked it very much (for all the reasons that you all know well), but after getting a Sony 1000 projector decided I wanted to go with a larger screen (144x72), and the 2.8 had just been replaced by the 2.4. I got samples of the HP2.4 and also the HCHP (which I definitely did NOT like). I actually like the 2.4 a bit better than the 2.8: I like its slightly wider viewing cone, but mostly I like because I think the pic is somewhat smoother than with the 2.8. This may just be my perception, and it's not a dramatic difference but noticeable (to me). And the 2.4 has all the other positive attributes of the 2.8.
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post #54 of 64 Old 10-03-2014, 01:35 PM
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I sent Da Lite an email today to see if the High Power material was available again. This is the reply -


Unfortunately, it is unavailable at this time. I spoke with our product management team and they said they are hoping to have the High Power material January 2015.


Best regards


So that is the latest news regarding the High Power material.

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post #55 of 64 Old 10-03-2014, 03:07 PM
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Thanks for following up on this, Craig. It sounds as if they're not just going to let HP quietly fade away. I'm holding off on making a final new screen decision until I see some feedback on how the new supply of HP looks.
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post #56 of 64 Old 10-03-2014, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Thanks for following up on this, Craig. It sounds as if they're not just going to let HP quietly fade away. I'm holding off on making a final new screen decision until I see some feedback on how the new supply of HP looks.

If you aren't in a hurry, Jan. 2015 isn't that far away.

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post #57 of 64 Old 10-03-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I'm holding off on making a final new screen decision until I see some feedback on how the new supply of HP looks.
I should be able to let you know how the new material looks when production resumes. I've been waiting for a warranty replacement for a couple of months now...
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post #58 of 64 Old 10-04-2014, 08:25 AM
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Thanks, henrich3. With your back order you'll probably be one of the first to receive the new HP. It will be interesting to see if there's any difference in performance based on the new supplier doing a better job of producing it.
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post #59 of 64 Old 10-05-2014, 02:53 PM
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Craig:

Thanks so much for following up. Let's hope they bring back the 2.8. I've been waiting a long time to get one larger than the one I have.

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post #60 of 64 Old 10-05-2014, 09:05 PM
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I have had people patiently waiting for many months for the HP to come back.

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