Should I go for plus gain or standard gain? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-28-2014, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Should I go for plus gain or standard gain?

This one's a bit tricky for me. I have a cabin which probably will be my home in one and a half years, when my daughter moves out to go to college. My son's already out and me and my wife really don't need 3600 square inches, plus a garage. 20 years ago I needed that, to make room for my LPs and CDs, comic books, books and so on. Now all that fits on a small hard drive. The problem is that the cabin has a north wall like this:



And and the south and west walls are like this (it's finished now, and the power cable on the west wall has been taken care of!):



The screen will be on the east wall. I have motorized roller blinds all around (courtesy of RollerTrol and IKEA Tupplur), so I can kill most of the light. But not all of it. Not completely. And every now and then, on a slow Sunday or Saturday evening, I may think :"It would be nice to se a totally pointless mess of violence right now. Where did I put 'Expendables 2' again?" There is a TV on the same wall as the screen will go, and I got that idea a month or so ago (well, almost, I watched "Loopers" with a friend while drinking beer), and that was not very successful, especially with the darker parts of the movie. And most of my movies are pretty dark. Even with my Philips 55". Most brands of TV's were out of the question because the screen is far to shiny on them, I found that Philips had the least shiny one.

OK, so the use is mainly after the Norwegian main newscast Dagsrevyen, around 8 P.M. From October and until early April that means darkness (on the edge of town). But in the summertime that means full on sunshine on the south and then on the west wall. And I really love my dark scenes, did I mention that? I have had a Barco CRT for the last 10 years in my home, in a room without any windows at all, and I'm so very fond of the scenes where it's supposed to be dark and it really is. And then there are details in the almost dark scenes as well. For instance "Underworld". I just don't watch that on my LCD TV at the cabin, it's a mess of grey.

As for projector I will probably get a JVC or something for now and then a laser or whatever technology wins in a few years, so that black can actually be black and not just shades of grey.

So with all that in mind, should I get a plus gain screen or go for a 1? A Stewart Firehawk is an option, all though expensive here in Norway (around 8000 dollars). I know I want tab tension, a wavy screen annoys the heck out of me on long pans. I just need to get some sound advice on the gain.
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post #2 of 24 Old 10-30-2014, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Nobody here with an informed opinion?

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post #3 of 24 Old 10-30-2014, 12:51 PM
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Be forewarned that you won't get those JVC blacks without a properly treated room. Otherwise I hope the screen gurus chime in.
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-31-2014, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, I know that, thanks. Those movies will be reserved for when it's dark outside. Then it should be no problem.

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post #5 of 24 Old 12-07-2014, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Seems like this is an impossible question...

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post #6 of 24 Old 12-08-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Seems like this is an impossible question...

Personally I like a little gain. I have a Stewart StudioTek 130 G3, and a Stewart Cima Neve 1.1 screen ( tab tensioned electric ). I like a bright punchy picture. A little gain ( 1.1 to 1.3 ) helps give a vibrant picture. Can you get screen samples from a Stewart dealer there in Norway?


We see the outside of the house - what does the inside look like?

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post #7 of 24 Old 12-08-2014, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for answering! Well, I have to admit I have no resent pictures of the inside, I can do that this weekend. And I'm afraid that won't help much. You see that means that I have to know what kind of projector I want to use on it, and I'm not sure yet. I will get something cheap like the JVC for now, but as I say something higher end will be in the future. So I'm really looking for what would fit the light there and a laser, LED or whatever projector will be the 4K standard in a few years. If that makes any sense...

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post #8 of 24 Old 12-14-2014, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's what it looks like inside for now. I have dark curtains that will make the wall behind the screen black, they're just not up yet. The ceiling isn't done, but it will be white. It's not done, and I have waited for two years to do it, because I wanted to know the correct configuration for Dolby Atmos speakers before I made it. The couch is about a meter closer to the tv than it will be to a screen. My home theater at home is dark, matte red (maybe more burgundy), with a black ceiling. That luxury is something I don't have here, when the room is both living room, kichen (opposite direction is my wife's end of the bargain - a kitchen with all amenities and room for 12 around the table) and home theater, wich is why I wonder how I should gain this.
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post #9 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 07:17 AM
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Now that's a cabin!
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post #10 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 07:40 AM
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Unless your walls, ceiling, and floor are black (with covered or no windows) I am not sure if 1.0 gain is going to be bright enough for you with a JVC. You will likely need gain unless your screen size is relatively small.

I hate seeing screen artifacts or texture with gain, so I am using using a 1.0 gain screen (Stewart ST100) but my room is completely blacked out as described above and in addition, I don't like a real bright image. I'm only around 12 ftL sitting 10 feet back from a 9 foot wide 2:35 screen. But to me that is perfect given my room conditions and preference.


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post #11 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you! Well, it's also our retirement home...as in when we kick our daughter out to the curb (kind of necessary to study law, I guess) in one and a half year and retire from being a dad! Downsizing from a 340 square meter house (wich is 3 659.72954 square feet according to Google...) with it's own home theater room. So it's kind of compact living! My record collection takes a room in the house, two hard drives in the cabin...

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post #12 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
Unless your walls, ceiling, and floor are black (with covered or no windows) I am not sure if 1.0 gain is going to be bright enough for you with a JVC. You will likely need gain unless your screen size is relatively small.

I hate seeing screen artifacts or texture with gain, so I am using using a 1.0 gain screen (Stewart ST100) but my room is completely blacked out as described above and in addition, I don't like a real bright image. I'm only around 12 ftL sitting 10 feet back from a 9 foot wide 2:35 screen. But to me that is perfect given my room conditions and preference.
David, didn't see your answer until now. Must have been synchronized posting. Almost like synchronized swimming, except for that we don't use bathing suits. Well, at least I don't, I have no idea what you're wearing when you're posting...

The JVC is just a stop on the way, the bulb free (probably laser) projector is what I'm really buying this for. My screen will be 100", I think. At least not smaller. I will be around 10 feet from the screen, but it won't be quite as large as yours. But I guess the real deciding factor is how bright these laser projectors will be. Do you know anything about that?

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post #13 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 01:38 PM
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David, didn't see your answer until now. Must have been synchronized posting. Almost like synchronized swimming, except for that we don't use bathing suits. Well, at least I don't, I have no idea what you're wearing when you're posting...

The JVC is just a stop on the way, the bulb free (probably laser) projector is what I'm really buying this for. My screen will be 100", I think. At least not smaller. I will be around 10 feet from the screen, but it won't be quite as large as yours. But I guess the real deciding factor is how bright these laser projectors will be. Do you know anything about that?
I've heard of conflicting reports of how bright the new Epson LCoQ models will be - at least calibrated - and how much light loss over time. It sounds as if they will be fairly close to the lamp-based JVCs, but don't quote me on that.

I am assuming JVC will release a 4K laser next year and if so, that will be very interesting.

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post #14 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, thanks! In that case your advice would be a gain screen, or am I reading you wrongly?

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post #15 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 02:21 PM
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Ok, thanks! In that case your advice would be a gain screen, or am I reading you wrongly?
No problem. I would go with a gain screen based on your screen size and images you posted on your room. I would take a look at the Stewart gain screens first as they tend to be the best within their categories and likely to have fewer artifacts/sparklies compared to other brands.

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post #16 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 03:02 PM
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You never did say what size screen you want.. I assume about 110" to fit between your speaker piles? I would order screen samples first no matter what you choose, treat the ceiling and side walls 5 feet or more out from the screen. I would not go with gain unless your projector is shelf mounted over your head and you wait for Dalite to re-release the HP screen or find a used one. Your room is prefect for a retro-reflective HP with 3 seats just like mine.
It looks like your seating is only about 12-14' so sparklies and hot spots may be an issue with other +gain fabrics.

Removable wall treatments are an option.
Living room update wall and celling treatment
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post #17 of 24 Old 12-15-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
David, didn't see your answer until now. Must have been synchronized posting. Almost like synchronized swimming, except for that we don't use bathing suits. Well, at least I don't, I have no idea what you're wearing when you're posting...

The JVC is just a stop on the way, the bulb free (probably laser) projector is what I'm really buying this for. My screen will be 100", I think. At least not smaller. I will be around 10 feet from the screen, but it won't be quite as large as yours. But I guess the real deciding factor is how bright these laser projectors will be. Do you know anything about that?

Now that's FUNNY! LMAO!


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post #18 of 24 Old Yesterday, 01:33 AM - Thread Starter
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You never did say what size screen you want.. I assume about 110" to fit between your speaker piles? I would order screen samples first no matter what you choose, treat the ceiling and side walls 5 feet or more out from the screen. I would not go with gain unless your projector is shelf mounted over your head and you wait for Dalite to re-release the HP screen or find a used one. Your room is prefect for a retro-reflective HP with 3 seats just like mine.
It looks like your seating is only about 12-14' so sparklies and hot spots may be an issue with other +gain fabrics.

Removable wall treatments are an option.
Living room update wall and celling treatment
Airscapes, actually I did say around 100" a couple of posts up. So you're not far off in your assessment. The screen will be around 10-15 cm from the back wall so it can go down without hitting the TV, if that matters. But I don't think it does. As I said I'm afraid any treatment of walls and ceiling is very difficult. I liked your black velvet treatment, the thing is that I need everything to be automatic and remote controlled. Sometimes my parents use the cabin, and my father is a soccer nut, so he would use it too. And I really don't trust him with anything that has to be manually done! I guess it would be possible to use a black or dark grey blind controlled by a RollerTrol on each side. Like this one from IKEA (which I can get 140 cm wide, and that is almost 5 feet):



I have RollerTrol motors in the other blinds in the cabin. The problem would be the ceiling. I can't imagine how I should do that. It's a bit too broad for one blind, and having rails for two or three blinds in the ceiling would probably look quite strange. Still, it may be possible. If that means that I can do with a cheaper screen. Maybe with a system of thin, white wires from the screen wall to the large wooden beam that's in the middle of the room? That would be almost invisible, I guess.

OK, I can feel that I'm starting to consider this seriously. It may not be as impossible as I first thought, and I have a quite forgiving wife... Say I manage to make a dark box 140 cm deep, would that mean that I can use a regular, cheaper screen? I checked the Dalite screen you mention, and I see that it has a gain of 2.4! Silly me, I thought a high-gain screen meant 1.3 instead of 1.0 or 0.9!

Edit: Oh, the projector will be behind the mentioned beam, mounted in some kind of a lift. So it will be pretty high.

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Now that's FUNNY! LMAO!
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Thanks! I just wish I could convince my 17 year old daughter that I'm a funny guy, not just embarassing!
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post #19 of 24 Old Yesterday, 05:12 AM
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Well, if you can not treat the room gain or no gain, the image will have the same problems with washed out inter scene blacks.
100" diag screen can be lit up buy ANY projector built in the past 8 years so a standard gain screen (cheap one) would work find with any of the the JVC projectors.
Light control as in windows and reflected light is the only way you get what you imagine in your mind to become reality on the screen... A high contrast great black level projector will look like crap without it.
Good luck and be creative. Just remember, light control and room treatment are all add-ons when you are not building a dedicated room so get the projector and a cheap screen and see what it looks like.. then go from there.
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post #20 of 24 Old Yesterday, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, light from outside is not a problem at all. We will be using the HT for movies onlyn in the night, and that means darkness. No other light sources to speak of in the area (it's a cabin after all), so that should be taken care of. The screen can't be all that cheap, since I need tab-tension (I'm very allergic to waves), only cheaper than a Stewart, which in Norway would set me back around 5000 dollars now. But do you think that doing the 5 feet close to the screen will be enough to avoid washed out?

Because I'm very much about real black. I still use a CRT projector in my home HT for that (since I didn't like the grey blacks that were available until a few years ago, and then I knew I would be selling the house soon, so there was no point in spending money on something else). My real "neck hair raiser" is the beginning of "Fellowship of the Ring", where Galadriel speaks in darkness. I'm satisfied when I can't see my own hand in front of my hand, which I can't now. I had an OLED TV at home as well for some weeks, and that gave me the same effect, btw. Which is why I was considering an OLED 100" instead of the projecector, but found out that first of all it would conflict with the windows and second of all the price of something like that would conflict with just about evetrything else! I'm not really holding my breath for an affordable (2500 dollars or so) 100" 4K OLED! Besides it's nice to watch the news on a more standard sized screen and save the big stuff for movies and series that are worth it.

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post #21 of 24 Old Yesterday, 06:28 AM
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But do you think that doing the 5 feet close to the screen will be enough to avoid washed out?


Well, the 5' rule seems to work for the washout since we are talking mixed light and dark scenes. You will still see the white walls light up beyond the treated area but they will be far enough away from the screen to do little damage.. In fact your pupil will close due to the white walls and the perceived blacks will be better.. Have read more than on person complain that the blacklevel has become more noticeable after blacking out the entire room.

Here are 2 big threads you may want to wade through.
For projectors of the caliber you are looking for Projector Mini-Shootout Thread 2013-2014

For blacking out the room
"Black" Theater Improvment Thread (Once you go black you never go back?)

For screen fabric info
http://www.accucalhd.com/documents/a...een_report.pdf

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post #22 of 24 Old Today, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Doug! I'll have enough reading for this Christmas in that black thread!

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post #23 of 24 Old Today, 07:12 AM
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Thanks, Doug! I'll have enough reading for this Christmas in that black thread!
You welcome!
I know a guy in Landsbro Sweden, thought it must be cold there.. looks like you are even farther north! Stay warm and happy researching!"
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post #24 of 24 Old Today, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! Yeah, I'm a bit further north. But not that much, really. But we have really good winter clothes here!

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