Is kydex a good screen surface for a perf screen?, what thickness - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 09-29-2000, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.diamondman.com/matb4.htm

shows that kydex comes in sheets of 60 by 96.

therefore
a 54 x 96 perf screen is no problem.


for the hole structure I selected
http://www.diamondman.com/28300.gif

It is very close to the cinemaperf that matches so well svga dlp.
spec
0.0810 rd. x 0.2200 stag.
HPSI: 20.7, %OA: 10.6
Max. perf width: 60"

How thick should it be?


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post #2 of 24 Old 09-29-2000, 10:05 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.diamondman.com/29400.gif 10 % hole
http://www.diamondman.com/29500.gif 8.1% hole
http://www.diamondman.com/29100.gif 9.1% hole


These squared array perforations guarantee the possibility of matching the screen array to the pixel array with unprecedented precision so that on each corner of a pixel there is a hole . For contrast enhancement and to transmit the required 5 channels of sound.

I told you so , it can be done.



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post #3 of 24 Old 09-30-2000, 02:40 PM
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Hi Peter.

This is interesting. Which perf structure would you choose for say a D-ILA?

Luca
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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KBK:

You may end up making paint money after all.

With a 60 by 159 inch screen there would be 1025 holes 1/16 horizontally
by 769 holes Vertically. I know that is 2.65. I like BenHur.

No the reason for the screen aspect ratio is for using a dlp xga with an off the shelf cinema adapter which is 2x . 2x in video yields 2.65 while in film it is 2.35. The compromise should be a 2.5 ratio screen , but that is a different subject.

The first prototype will have to be flat.

I have a body shop with a paint room around the block .

Assumming they can provide this plastic inexpensively I could then have it painted with your dlp finish.

Figuring out the hole spacing for a horisontally curved screen is going to be a bitch. It may be nearly impossible for a perfect match because of the pincushion variances.



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post #5 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 12:01 PM
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They will be using a totally cad based, motor contolled and computer controlled cutting bed. Any numerically based process is possible, they just need the numbers to plug into it, and presto, it's done. You can even make a bas relief (on some of these cutting systems) of Rockin' Ronnie Regan, if you are so inclined.

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post #6 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 12:08 PM
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You have been on my list of early paint purchasers. when it is actually availible, you will be informed, if the 'ole e-mail is still in effect.

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post #7 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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k b TOYS:

IS A CUSTOM WATER PERFORATION AN EXPENSIVE THING LIKE AN INJECTION MOLD?
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post #8 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 09:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Further info:
Peter,

Thank you for your interest in Diamond Manufacturing Company - Perforated
Metal Specialists. Per your request, we are sending you some samples. Due to
the fact that the samples we do have available are run-offs of previous
jobs, we are sending the closest we have on hand to what you have specified.

As for the type of perforation and the layout you are asking about, we
request that a drawing (preferably done in CAD) be sent to ensure we clearly
understand what it is you are looking for. As for sheet size, the can be
supplied up to 250" long by 60" wide depending on the perf pattern. For
information on perforated sheet options and tolerances, check out the
following page on our site http://www.diamondman.com/prod.htm.

In addition, we suggest referring to the following page on our web site for
some insight on designing perforated products http://www.diamondman.com/proc.htm. The lower level pages under the section
entitled "factors affecting cost, quality, and delivery" should provide some
direction and clear up some potential questions. NOTE: If this is a small
quantity requirement (ex. under 15 sheets), you may want to consider using
standard size perf sheets stocked by our sister company Perforated Metals
Plus (www.perf-plus.com). Stocked sheets cost considerably less than custom
made product.

I hope this is of help. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free
to contact me.

There are some real power buy potentials here.


LUCA: Hello neighboor!

Since DILA has contrast enhancement buit into the matrix.

IE the non active pixel area is black versus DLP's White non active area.

The perforations on my IMAGE ENHANCING DILA SCREEN would be narrow vertical slits that would coincide with the actual pixel elevation alternating every other pixel, on the vertical domain i would skip vertical slits evry two rows and then add horizontal slits that actually matched the pixel width in a repeating pattern of horisontal slits.

Those that help the contrast on DILA? NO, Does it depixelate? NO.

But is the only possible acousticqally transparent screen usable for Flcd and dila. You could put the speakers behind a screen 60" high by 141" wide using a standard 35mm cinemascope adapter, and the screen would look just like a non perforated screen.

These guys can pretty much perforate anything you send them a CAD drawing on.

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post #9 of 24 Old 10-02-2000, 09:38 PM
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They are probably using a pressure/water cutting technique, which means ANY pattern you can come up with, via a delivery to them of the CAD spec., is doable. They would have comments on the structural integrety, and tell you of any posssible problems due to bending the structure for a parabola....

Painting the surface of one that has slightly larger holes to compensate is entirely possible.

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post #10 of 24 Old 10-03-2000, 05:14 PM
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Hey looks like my Mass Production classes are going to come in handy! In small quantities water perforation is likely less expensive than injection molding. The high initial cost of injection molding comes from the machining of the mold, there is no such cost associated with computer controlled water perforation.

Using plastics for a screen is a brilliant idea! I wonder how the paint will affect the perforations...It would definitely have to be painted and you might need a rough finish for better paint adhesion.

Anyways Kydex would seem like the best option of the plastics they offer on that page, mostly because of its excellent formability when heated. Acrylic and PVC are both thermoplasts so you should be able to heat them and form them. With proper support you could have a Torus CCS-type screen with no elaborate vacuum system! WOW! The hard part would be heating and custom forming such a large surface...

Regards,

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post #11 of 24 Old 10-03-2000, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Kung Fu:

A Torus ray trace design would be ideal. And part of the plan, of course. In fact I have E mailed Don Stewart to colaborate on this.

This is an excerpt of my preliminary design request notes:

"I am looking to place 769 vertical perfs and 1025 horizontal perfs on a 60 x 150 kydex, flat white and degreased to the bone. The holes to be no greater than 1/16 spaced in rows and columns that forms miniature rectangles of a horizontal proportion

60 inches divided by 769 equals. .078 inches. This would be the vertical spacing in between the vertical holes center to center. So the columns would have 769 holes with centers to center (of hole ) dimension of .078.VERTICAL

For the horizontal rows :

150 inches (screen width) divided by 1025 (Holes) is = .147 Horizontal spacing center to center.

This is the preliminary calculation.

Is that possible on a sheet of 3/8 , 5/16?

I need a ball park figure for a prototype.

By matching the pattern array of the pixel to the perforations I will have invented the projection screen of the future."

The above is for a 2.5 aspect ratio screen (the half of 2.65 and 2.35)
This is required to maintain maximum pixel count when fudging an xga projector's image when using a Cinemascope 2x Film anamorphic lens.

Basically overscanning vertically by 1.5 % and squeezing horizontally by 1.5%.


Pf course these calculations are wrong because of the slight pincushion associated with the TORUS the holes would have to be ray traced considring both radi of the parabollic screen.

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post #12 of 24 Old 10-04-2000, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KFung:



Anyways Kydex would seem like the best option of the plastics they offer on that page, mostly because of its excellent formability when heated. Acrylic and PVC are both thermoplasts so you should be able to heat them and form them. With proper support you could have a Torus CCS-type screen with no elaborate vacuum system! WOW! The hard part would be heating and custom forming such a large surface...

Regards,

Kam Fung
This is where my original comments on 'vacuum based' - plastic bag molding systems comes back into play, for the manufacture of the FORMING MOLDS, for the heat curing of the shape, into the plactic. You should be able to use the inflated bag, on a square box, that has a shaping of theouter four pieces, that will automaticlly infer the proper shape to an inflated bag..

Using the proper high grade materials for the inflated bag, and usig HOT AIR, in an agitated way, will cause the 'inner plastic screen, to form to the desired shape, due to the fact that it will press hardest upon the parts of the bag that are not conforming to the desired shape. The heat transfer will be the greatest at this point, thus the plastic will heat up most there,and become pliable, and then bend to th underlyng hard mold shape.

parhaps, all that is needed is the blown up, shaped bag, with agitated heated air flow, and the screen plastic dropped straight on it, above it. Pressure works against gravity, and btween the two, the desired shape is created,and the bag is then filled with cooler air, thus solidifying the screen into the impressed shape.


There is no reason, why this should not work PERFECTLY, ater a few trial runs have been made.

The biggest problem, is the mathematical transfer of the curvature desired WITHIN THE SCREEN, to the CURVED, FLAT sides of the 'pressurized-air-bag-mold'. THe desired pressure is reached to describe the flatness of the inner part for the problems associated thru the use of CRT's, and the multiple seating positions.

The math is straightforward, and it only has to be done once. The mold can be experimentally manufactured on a small scale in a few hours, using some cardboard, some tape, a garbage bage, and a vaccuum's reverse flow (air exit) to prove the validity of the 'hot-air-bag' molding approach.

For those with a sense of humor, it can be noted that all that is needed, is a blow-hard, a garbage bag and some duct tape... and a box to put the mess in.

For those of you who are having a hard time visualizing exactly what I am getting at, recall the appearance of a pressurized, inflated dome tent building, like a indoor tennis court, or a indoor soccer field. You drop the pre-perfoated flat, rectangular screen material on top, and let the heated air in the 'tent' do it's job, along with gravity, then substitute with cold air in the tent for hardening.

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post #13 of 24 Old 10-04-2000, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I can't believe that we may actually make the contrast enhancing, pixel fitted, compound curved screen for DLP a reality. Next DILA, because of its higher pixel count is a lot more work.

I intend to patent my idea but, I would like Stewart to maybe produce it.

He who has the necessary triginometric and ray tracing skills that
feels like it can fine tune the perforation formulas adjusted for anamorphic and pincushion ,can co-own the patent. Jeff S already seems to have an idea about the formula for the flat screen.

KBK and Kung Fu you can have a piece of co ownership too if you help me.

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post #14 of 24 Old 10-04-2000, 07:24 AM
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My understanding of it is that you have one year to file after public disclosure. After that, is is fully public domain,if you have not filed.

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post #15 of 24 Old 10-05-2000, 08:52 PM
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KBK,

I don't believe plastic bag molding will work...I'm molding small scale acrylic products in my mass production class, and I can tell you that hot air will not provide enough heat to make acrylic pliable. The oven we use to heat our plastic before we form it is around 350 F. The plastic bag you use as the form would melt before the screen would soften. Also there is the problem of shrinkage when you mold plastic, the plastic may buckle if not secured properly. A proper solid mold would need to be made and some method of heating the plastic uniformly (if possible) would need to be developed.

Also are perforations necessarily the right answer to contrast enhancement if one is already custom painting the screen? Perhaps some kind of overlay with holes punched in it could serve as a template for a coat of matte black paint? The location of the perforations would be uncertain if the plastic was heated and molded.

What is really interesting to me is the possibility of a cheap torus screen without the vacuum, but unless someone has a great idea about how to form large sheets of plastic into a curved surface we may be SOL. If the degree of curvature is not too much the idea is probably workable, you run into more problems the more you try and change the shape of the basic sheet.

Oh, and to answer you question about thickness...there is no way to know without experimentation. As thin as possible, while still being able to support itself would be optimum. Thinner sheets would be easier to form. With a proper support structure 1/16" might even be realistic (and it is also much more pliable).

As for the problem of ray-tracing the screen it doesn't seem impossible if the gain characteristics of the screen are known. Just a matter of optimizing the angle of view from each extreme seating point to the extreme points of the screen (i.e. the corners). That would give you the direction of a normal vector drawn at the corner of the screen from which you could derive the curvature of the screen. Unfortunately I've been away from math too long to be really comfortable with these calculations. It could be pretty simple if you had a simple raytracing program...

Also, anyone have any ideas about what a curved plastic screen would do the the acoustics of your room and the speakers behind the screen. Plastic is definitely not as "acoustically-transparent" as a normal screen.

Regards,

Kam Fung
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post #16 of 24 Old 10-06-2000, 10:22 PM
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High-temp, high-pressure, teflon surface. Extremely durable. Extreme pressure capacity. Fibre re-inforced. Sandwich mold capacites.

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post #17 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 08:41 AM
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Interesting discussion.

>>I intend to patent my idea but, I would like Stewart to maybe produce it.<<

You'd best stop talking about it in public; may have already blown any ability to patent it! These discussions might also have inadvertently created multiple co-inventors. If serious, ecommend you talk immediately to qualified IP (intellectual property) attorney.

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post #18 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Stew. I very much appreciate advice on IP matters from someone from
your state. 10 years ago Miami and Seattle where equivalent sized cities with equivalent Net Worth's Per Capital. In 10 years, well....what a difference. I believe IP is the reason. Don't you? Miami is the most IP oblivious city in the US.

At the moment I do not have the time or resources to go patent. My attormey is bussy with a breach of contract case with a "Celebrity", and I can't ask him.

Interestingly enough, the case is basically over rights to publication to a cutting edge a/v system design. Everything was clearly documented with having the design rights, the rights to publish etc. etc.

The athlete's career floundered and he just did not have time. In discussing the case my attorney said he would win it as a breach of contract, without even mentioning "IP" rights. So the legal atmosphere in this region suppresses any progress in that area. Isn't that bad for the State? Now back to the screen:

If I get around to it, and we find that someone patented the concept, maybe? Maybe? It can be traced to the forum. In that case I would ask the help of the forum, to round up a posse, go rent KU-KLUX-KLAN costumes and burn the guys house down.

So the pure VIDEOPHILE cannot place economic interests in the way of mankind's progress... Next post.

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post #19 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, different idea and good progress:


I can purchase the already concave plastic 1/4 inch with the screen laminate on or off. In 2.35 aspect ratio , 8 foot wide.Close enough to a 30,000 torus in shape.

It is a monocoque shell, actually it is the frontal component of an existing screen that cannot be cut down to 2.35 due to the bulkier design rib design of a support that was designed for 3x4 but can be cut down to 16 x 9.

Let's work with that shell as our base. Do not worry about the back support, I'll let my 11 and 9 year old figure that one out.It will be rigidly in place.

Is laser perforation possible? If done in a freezer the hole dimension should be controllable right? The laser can be digitally controlled, right?

I found this:
http://www.bhlaser.com/

I know stewart experimented with lasers with uneven results. But we are 1/4 inch here.......



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post #20 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Kung FU:


"Also are perforations necessarily the right answer to contrast enhancement if one is already custom painting the screen? Perhaps some kind of overlay with holes punched in it could serve as a template for a coat of matte black paint?

We think alike.. But if you get a machine to precisely perforate the laminate, with a hole on each corner of the pixel. And then you would need a second perforation process on the black monocoque shell i think , that if lucky enough to align the overlay to the speaker perfs that ther could be noticeable surface uneveness.

I then say that sitting the monocoque black shell in a craddle that laser perf can work. At the lasershop we set up a projector VH-10Q with an isco lens to project a 21 x 9 image, (this is an inexpensive way to develop now for future 16 by 9 DLP and PURELY KUNG FU'S IDEA ).

Let the guys measure and perfect the formula at the laser shop.

They then ship the monocoque to our assembly line for painting.

Having flat black absorbency behind the perfs will help reflections.

Also by having most of the sound coming out of the parabola, and having an absorbent material all around the speakers within the screen the reflectivity of the curve, specially on a 2.35 aspect ratio would be negligible.


Also, anyone have any ideas about what a curved plastic screen would do the the acoustics of your room and the speakers behind the screen. Plastic is definitely not as "acoustically-transparent" as a normal screen.

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post #21 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 07:30 PM
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Peter,

Was going to post more on fun mass production techniques, but it appears you've solved your problem! Where are you getting this pre-formed screen from?

If it is 1/4", that is bad news. You can no longer put speakers behind this bad boy! Putting then behind that much plastic will be like putting them behind a wall...even a wall with many small holes in it won't transmit sound that well (or accurately).

Also, make sure that this laser perforating place can take curved material, from the pictures on their site it looks like they only use flat sheets and there may not be enough clearance for a curved sheet...Anyways if you go that way, but don't put speakers behind the screen, you can just paint the screen first and have the laser just pit the surface instead of going all the way through for your perforations (this would allow to black plastic under the paint to show throught). This would take less energy and would decrease the chance of unwanted burning or melting. See also my other post in another thread about why you don't need to calculate spacing if you are perforating the curved screen and not a flat sheet that is later bend into the shape of a curve.

Also, if the speakers are not behind the screen there are less problems with how plastic affects sound (you only have to worry about the screen reflects sounds that bounce off the walls and ceiling).


KBK,

Cool! Sounds expensive to custom order the bag though. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif Maybe a curved extrusion? You could then roll the curve in the other dimension while the plastic was hot...

Regards,

Kam Fung
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post #22 of 24 Old 10-07-2000, 08:38 PM
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I have had extensive discussions re: patentability, public disclosure, prior art, etc. I have been led to believe that if you are the originator of the idea, and make it to the patent office in a reasonable time, public disclosure is not a problem. Problems arrive in the form of others contesting the patent, as to their proof of it as prior art. If someone beats you to the patent office and patents an idea you have publicly disclosed, then you have grounds to break their patent, as prior art exists, it is yours! When It is your idea, then there is no contest. I believe you have that one year for submission of the application for a patent. If any of these discussions involve me, or anything I have said, Peter, Then I will fully co-operate, and there will never be any contest from me, If your offer for inclusion of rights is holding. Any statements as to the ownership and usage of ideas at the bottom of the start-up page of this forum are probably non-binding re a patent dispute, as they are slightly contradictory in nature.

The time between acceptance of your submission and acceptance is private to you and your lawyer, and the patent office. If it is accepted, and reviewed, then the time between the acceptance and issuance of the patent is free reign for the public, and they can manufacture as they please, with out recompense to you. When your patent is issued, from that moment they must cease and desist in manufacturing your product or 'essence' of your claim, but have one year (I believe) to utilize a back-catalogue of the items (as in warehouse of stock).

In the far east, the patent system 'tends' to be used as a research tool, and only a fool in the A/V world actually tenders a patent application within some of these countries. All it becomes is a roadmap for full abuse. some of the most interesting aspects of current loudspeaker technology are coming out of the far east, and I KNOW these folks have not been issued a license, yet I see the developments in use anyway.


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post #23 of 24 Old 10-08-2000, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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KUNG FU Said:

"Was going to post more on fun mass production techniques, but it appears you've solved your problem! Where are you getting this pre-formed screen from?"

Let's not completely discard production techniques. As there is and ideal maximum size of 45 x 106. If we buy the monocoque frontal surface of a VUTEC, answering your question,VUTEC.COM, their molds envelope is 96"wide. Come think of it, has to be far thinner than 1/4 maybe only 1/16, because these things weigh nothing.

I DO NOT HOWEVER WANT TO DEPART FROM THE PERFORATIONS, AND THE SPEAKERS, ALL FIVE CHANNELS. I know for a fact that on a SONY 3 chip dlp on a Stewart CINEPERF 10 feet wide, there was ZERO moire, and 2000% [: )] contrast enhancement. The Stewart has a 45 degree offset in perforations and a hole area of about 13% (can one of the co-developers confirm that?).


I recently compared that image against a runco xga 3dlp on a 14 w Microperf. Oh my god what a waste of money, horrible, my eyes could not focus with two depths of field, the screen,& the wall behind.

Same experience I had when I installed a DILA on a 65 wide microperf.

Acoustically with the tone controls of the Meridian 5500 alone the CINEPERF based system sounded the best one I have ever put together, if not the best one ever. Our equalisation will be far more perfect than that as it is TACT. The Bohlender OEM speakers have a large surface area 70 -20 when complemented with the oem woofer pair, 45 -20. They are ideal for this type of perforation. Serious Damping around the speakers will enhance the imaging. If Genesis uses those drivers, it is good enough for me. Stacey Spears Complimented their In wall version shown at cedia.See secrets of HI-FI report.

KGB is now officially V.P. in charge of the P&P departments of the CINERAMAX development project. P & P stands for paint and patents.

Since Kung Fu is such a rabid audiophile , and is also an Industrial Design Engineer he is V.P. in charge of the A & E department of the project. He has to make the audio and strucutral elements push the envelop past Physical limitations.

Yes, anyone can actively contribute in any co-developer's department.

I will get the ray tracing done locally at my architects office. Since no one in the forum volunteered.


Since I came up with the idea I get 60% and Final approval of all elements of the desin, and you two split the other. 40 Fair enough? Remember 1 billion homes by 2010. Its official now.

There are several patents we need to work on that I have to bring KGB up to speed on, Kung Fu got some of the drawings already. Since we have to work around (prior art) on those , we can bring our discussions public on those other contraptions when we have reestablished our arts as unique solutions in their own right. Because they solve a very big HT problem, that no one had the decency to figure out.

I believe and so does Kung Fu that they can redefine the current architecture of Home Theater, by completely blurring the lines between HT component categories as we now know them , and by having the potential to eliminate at least one of those categories.

So with the intention of later developing a pixel matching curved perforated screen, we now give notice in this public forum that we are the inventors of the perforated, contrast enhancing, curved screen. Such a device, with great pride shall surpass present THX and ISF screen accomplishments thru higher standards of image reproduction.







[This message has been edited by CINERAMAX (edited 10-08-2000).]
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post #24 of 24 Old 10-08-2000, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Having already made this thread serve as a "public record of incorporation of our new venture" I would like to start a new one with the idea of using off the shelf perforated aluminum. And a wood frame.

As we proceed on this new discussion can you guys please check that we are not infringing on other patents (check sigma and sony). We also want to protect our idea of developing a perforation patern matching a hole to each corner of the pixel,(perf count established by adding 1 to each direction of the pixel array).
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