DLP + Better Screens = No More CRT's? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 09-26-2000, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a chance to speak with Sam Runco a few months back, and I
asked him what he thought about the future of CRT, with the latest
technologies in DLP in mind. His answer, although not completely
PRO DLP, was surely optimistic about the future of CRT projectors.

He hinted that with better screens, that can produce a good black
level with 1000+ ANSI LUMENS projectors, CRT's might disappear in
the next 3-5 years.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you guys think that DLP or some
other new technology will ever look as CRT does? Will it be
somewhere in the realm of affordable?

Most of my clients look to high LUMENS projectors because they
want to use them in room that a) a large CRT wouldn't work, and B)
the light is uncontrollable. So far I have had great luck with the
Sharp LCD, Runco DLP's and Sony LCD. I haven't tried the D-ILA
technology, but so far everything I have read is great.

Thanks!


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post #2 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 12:52 PM
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Sounds like 2000 lumens and grey screens to me.

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post #3 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 03:53 PM
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I doubt very much Runco would give up the CRT line reserving that line of products for very high end home theaters. A niche market. Look at the profit margin Runco earns on CRT's. Sam would be crazy if he did. I'll admit some of the DLP's, LCD's look good and approach CRT's on video quality... well you know where I stand on this.
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post #4 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 04:23 PM
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I read a review of a DILA projector that was based on one of the 'victor' companies design, and the reviewer, whilst positive about the entire episode, flatly stated that the unit 'severely compressed the contrast level at the bottom of the contrast range, and could not do a real, true black'.
This was a 1500 lumen unit.

I can get a good, solid grey screen to you, bu there is nothing that can be done to actually create a greater contrast range than that which is produced by the projecting unit. The grey screen will help out considerably in the area of human perception.......

I just noticed while typing this that the lower left corner of my CRT projector is drifting out of focus. Is the season changing already?

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post #5 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 05:36 PM
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'severely compressed the contrast level at the bottom of the contrast range,...'

This is addressed by calibration.

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post #6 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 06:09 PM
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Runco is not giving up on the CRT PJ. Just this year they signed a 5 year exclusive agreement with Barco, who appears to be the last of the CRT PJ manufacturers.

I remember 15 years ago...Barco was THE PJ to get for HT. What comes around, goes around.

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post #7 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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KBK -

You speak of human perception. As far as I am concerned, isn't that what
matters? If you think the popsicle tasts good, doesn't it?

Too many of my clients get into a spec war and forget that if 2 tv's have the features they want, than the one that looks best is in fact best. I guess there is a lot to say on both sides of ths issue.

Bottom line is that the people who are buying DLP, I-DLA and LCD are not people who have dedicated theater rooms... they are 99% of the population - people like me who want a big screen and are willing to give up that perfect picture and perfect room for it.

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post #8 of 26 Old 09-27-2000, 11:04 PM
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Dan,

Some of us including KBK have advocated grey screens for just that reason. However, to get the full benefit of the grey screen, one benefits from a very bright projector.

This not just conjecture, both KBK and others like myself, are advocates of grey screens based on our experience. If you haven't already, you might want to search this forum for grey screens to see a history. KBK is perfecting paints for front projection and we are all anxious to see his first products.

I have a 1300 lumen LCD projector with about a 65% grey. I would prefer 3000 lumens and a 35% grey with some reflective gain in a very smooth screen. If a DILA and the screen could hit this, CRTs would have a tough run for their money, IMO.

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post #9 of 26 Old 09-28-2000, 12:06 PM
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Like Mr. Shadow said, "Not long now..."

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post #10 of 26 Old 09-28-2000, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Henderson:


He hinted that with better screens, that can produce a good black
level with 1000+ ANSI LUMENS projectors, CRT's might disappear in
the next 3-5 years.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you guys think that DLP or some
other new technology will ever look as CRT does? Will it be
somewhere in the realm of affordable?


I remember when CD players became the rage. They sounded TERRIBLE and STILL do. Even the best out there cannot equal a good turntable.

So, when everyone went into panic mode, and started dumping their records, guys like me said, "YES!!!", and went into overdrive, cleaning up on all those nice collections in pristine shape. Records, records for everybody!

I am still listening to fantastic sounding records, and everyone else, whilst listening to a MEDIUM, that may be convienient, actually moved themselves FURTHER AWAY FROM THE SOURCE AND TRUE STRUCTURE OF THE MUSIC, and that within it that ACTUALLY MOVES YOU. It's too bad so few people out there were actually capable of hearing and understanding the difference. It was mostly a case of lack of knowing how to listen, not having 'golden ears'.

So most of you folks spent the last 15 years listening to something akin to skeletons being ground to dust on a metal roof, I manged to enjoy 15 years of MUSIC.

Too bad.

So, flush out your CRT's, the really expensive ones, and I'll step in and buy a working technology -at fire sale prices- and you can have the garbage, AGAIN!!. I'll look at and enjoy a working picture all the while, whilst you fret about how bad your new picture looks, and how far it has to go to be great. CRT's are great already. WHY give them up?

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post #11 of 26 Old 09-28-2000, 03:43 PM
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KBK,
has anyone ever used the word "reactionary" in your presence? Are there any redeeming values to new technology?
Don O

Cheers,
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post #12 of 26 Old 09-28-2000, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I have done some reading on the grey screens that are being made. I would love to see one, or atleast a sample of what they can do. The highest output projector I have access to is a 1200ANSI lumen DLP - which to me the black level is terrible. (for obvious reasons)

To be honest, I havn't even seen the I-DLA powered up. I'm going to have to find one on my next day off and see what it looks like.

Smaller, Brighter, Cheaper... now were talking. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Dan

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post #13 of 26 Old 09-29-2000, 10:22 PM
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yes! And We must all wear greenish clothes, use old bakelite dial phones, and march up and down the square!

I love new technology, I am usually the one creating it. Or the place where it can come into being. But I never venture anywhere without contemplating the value and strength of the 'new purchase' -without taking into due consideration of any value within the old, that it may replace or supplant.

Reminds me of when I first started listening to Floyd at the age of 9.

"'Forward!', he cried,... from the rear,... and the front rank died."

It is interesting to note that the best jokes make it to the white house within 48 hours... It's funny, the way that some things travel, a whisper in an ear, an idea spoken aloud, a casual conversation with a traveling stranger....

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post #14 of 26 Old 09-29-2000, 11:27 PM
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Well spoken.

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post #15 of 26 Old 09-29-2000, 11:36 PM
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Actually, I preferred Floyd when they were into cows, little furry animals in the forest, and instrumentals. Love the "Echos" album.

And of course, everyday the damned paper boy brings more folded faces to the floor.



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post #16 of 26 Old 10-05-2000, 07:15 PM
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I would love to see both of you guys with newly found billions, and watch you develop a myriad of obscure , acquired taste, forms of Phillantropism.

AH! the "whisper in the wind" parragraph. We only know that we don't know. One of these days, IF sufficiently open minded, you should hear an anecdote involving a telepathic communication between me at the Consumer electronics show in LV and an NBA coach in Miami. This extraordinary comuniquee that I so misteriously perceived (clocked to be at the same time adjusted by a 3 hours difference) prompted the development of the NEGATIVE LIGTH MATRIX screen, the salvation of DLP, recently making development strides.

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post #17 of 26 Old 10-05-2000, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I hope I'm not the only person who broke out a dictonary to find out what CINERAMAX just said.....

Kind of reminds me of watching Dennis Miller on Monday Night.

Dan

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post #18 of 26 Old 10-05-2000, 08:23 PM
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Maybe he IS Dennis Miller.

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post #19 of 26 Old 10-06-2000, 10:25 PM
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I SWEAR ON DLP, this is true:

Funny you should make those comments! As I drove to kinko's two days ago I was reflecting on recent posts that highlighted the communication breakdowns in question here.

This is the first time your DM analogy comes up in the forum, right?

Well, talk about telepathy...

While driving I actualy asked myself: "I wonder if these guys see me, as I see Deniss Miller?" Then as a sign of some kind: Two days later ...look what you wrote.

On the upside. At least with me you can re-read it, to make the figuring out less incomplete. : )

I'll clarify the above post..... It is not unlike our semitelepathic experience, that we just participated in.


I salute you fellow telepaths! YATOOH YATOOH!
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-06-2000, 11:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I suppose it is okay to be seen as a "Dennis Miller"

Just don't RANT.. I hate that. I couldn't care less what DM likes or
dislikes, in fact - I bet my ranting here is a ingenious example of the
kind of crap I'm talking about.

By the way, if you goto <http://britannica.com/bcom/original/article/0,5744,13485,00.html>
you can find out what Dennis Miller IS saying.

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post #21 of 26 Old 10-07-2000, 11:22 AM
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Very well Dan,

From now on , me ranting is like GOING FOR THE COOKIES IN THE JAR.

You may holler at me if I start.

But, this thread is my 3rd Audiovisualy Related Telepathic experience.

As my final rant I would really like to document the first two experiences in the forum, to spculatively reflect on the impact (if any) those instances had on SURROUND SOUND and DIGITAL PROJECTION. This third event closes the telepathy circle. I am grateful to you for taking that burden off my head.

Fair enough? After that, you are Scott Free. I'll give you my password to delete my posts if you would like...: ) Just Kidding.

I thank you for your feedback , All the best.

Peter Montoulieu
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post #22 of 26 Old 10-07-2000, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KBK:

So most of you folks spent the last 15 years listening to something akin to skeletons being ground to dust on a metal roof, I manged to enjoy 15 years of MUSIC.

Too bad.

So, flush out your CRT's, the really expensive ones, and I'll step in and buy a working technology -at fire sale prices- and you can have the garbage, AGAIN!!. I'll look at and enjoy a working picture all the while, whilst you fret about how bad your new picture looks, and how far it has to go to be great. CRT's are great already. WHY give them up?

Er, this is about the same as saying that you'd welcome buying our old 16mm gear and films over that nasty DVD thing with all those digital artifacts.

Home theater certainly didn't start with the laserdisks much less DVDs. CRTs also suffer when compared to film itself and has its own fair share of difficulties. If you want the true source material, well, you can buy the true source material if you really want.

The rest of us prefer a balance of convienence and quality (and price) over purity of media. Horror of horrors, I even listen to lossy compression like MDs for the car and skating...

But somehow, I get the impression you wouldn't consider any of the stuff I listen to as music anyway. I'd bet that a good number of the smaller bands and indies I have on CD never cut records...which means well, you'd be listening to dead air, now wouldn't you?

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post #23 of 26 Old 10-07-2000, 10:11 PM
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I regularly go into small private music shops just for the indies and pride myself on finding the smaller trance/country/rockabilly/hiphop/beat/whateverthehellyoumaycallit music that only has to meet one criteria. it must be GOOD. You know what i am talking about. It just has to be real, that's all. I do buy indie cd's, sometimes that's the only way I can get them. That is why I spent so much time building a CD player I can tolerate listening to. I design speaker crossovers that are as phase-problem free as I can possibly make, by prioritizing by what I hear. it's become so bad that i can hear the phase distortion and timing smear in the crossovers of speakers that are playing in another room. The timing errors within the clocking systems of CD players thus give me the fits, I can't tolerate them for very long and they are totally inadequete for some of the factors involved for the proper judgements of proofing designs. Turntables push music reproduction systems to higher circles of reproduction quality.

As A side note, I just came across Three early Reznor 12" 33 1/3 rpm singles off of "Pretty Hate Machine". Hard stuff to find. Even the CD has become collectable.

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post #24 of 26 Old 10-11-2000, 03:40 PM
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Well, you have far better ears than I if you can hear that from the next room over. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Nice find on the singles BTW.

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post #25 of 26 Old 10-15-2000, 07:58 PM
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Going back to the original subject of this thread......
An earlier responder talked about compressed blacks and fixing them by calibration. Under ideal circumstances, this is pretty true. However..
*unless you have an ideal projector (eg., CRT w/ high peak white but low overall output)
* a pitch black room
* and dark walls,
calibration alone won't give you the best "looking" picture. Including ambient light, reflected light, and non-linear modulators, you can expect to lose differentiation among deep greys. For most people that don't have a dedicated home theater(dark room, dark walls), the "textbook" calibration will not give them the best picture. Even tweaking brightness and contrast only goes so far, and then only under the conditions (say ambient light) in force at the time. I'd like to see a product that allows the user to specify non-linear luminance curves for DVD playback (they already exist for normal Windows apps).
Steve


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post #26 of 26 Old 10-16-2000, 07:16 AM
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Exactly true.

A falsification of the linearity of the bottommost characteristics of the contrast range (black level) is what is required to offset the problems associated with the inherent problematic characterisics of the digitally based projection systems. This is best achieved at the point at which the rubber meets the road, or more properly stated, at the screen.

At the bare minimum, there needs to be acharacteristic screen type for each projection system type.

DILA
ILA
LCD
DLP

That is the starting point, as far as I am concerned.

Which is why I stated that there can probably never be a screen at that point which meets the 'traditional' requirements for ISF certification. (meaning one of my developments...not that of others, they choose their own path)

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