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-   -   Gray Screens - All Talk? (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/19219-gray-screens-all-talk.html)

ddell 10-17-2000 11:07 PM

Seems like there is close to consensus that gray screens really improve picture quality for digital projectors provided you have enough lumens. Question is, can you actually buy a production model gray screen today? I know KBK is doing wonderful things and Don Stewart is doing a beta program. Nothing out there for us guys who need roll-down today?

KBK 10-18-2000 07:02 PM

Yes. So far I am all talk and no action.

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CCLAY 10-18-2000 07:16 PM

ddell,

Go out and get yourself a 4 x 8 piece of masonite for 10 bucks and some black & white paint try it. The neat thing about the masonite is you can paint 1/2 the screen grey and 1/2 the screen white to compare. You'll be amazed at the difference! I used "pastel base" for white and "lamp black" colorant to get the grey.

Chris

Emil Naepflein 10-19-2000 06:18 AM

Hi,

I don't want to be provocative here - no. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

But I already recommended an alternative to using gray screens somewhere else:
Just get sunglasses with the right color and you have the same effect as with a color corrected gray screen. It may be even better because it also reduces the ambient light which a gray screen only does for light hitting it. This is not only much cheaper but it can also be individualized for each person viewing. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
And you don't have to change the screen for several hundred bucks if you change your projector or your personal taste regarding colors changes. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

So why waiting for the grey screens to become a comodity?
Anyone doing a power buy for sunglasses? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Seriously, http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I have really used sunglasses with bluish tint with great success on correcting the yellowish tint of my DLP and to reduce black level. As I have to wear glasses anyway this is no problem for me.
Only my wife is wondering why I wear sunglasses in the darkness. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif

Emil

CCLAY 10-19-2000 06:05 PM

Boy, that's a new one!

You got those cool flip up lenses too? Ya know, so you can find the popcorn.

Chris

ddell 10-19-2000 06:49 PM

To Emil: Whoaaahhh! I like it. Would feel too wierd handing sunglasses to all my friends, though.

To CCLAY: If I could do a wallmount, I could paint myself a screen and there'd be no problem. But - my screen needs to come down in front of my fixed equipment cabinet. Somebody told me Da-lite makes a silver screen. Any experience with that?

Emil Naepflein 10-20-2000 01:21 AM

Chris:
No, I don't have this lenses, they look to uncool when flipped up. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif

ddell:
Why not? When going to an IMAX you get glasses, too. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Emil

[This message has been edited by Emil Naepflein (edited 10-20-2000).]

car_rod 10-23-2000 02:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ddell:
Somebody told me Da-lite makes a silver screen. Any experience with that?
Super Wonder Lite, only avalaible in square aspect ratios (up to 70"x70") on tripod frames; at least that's what I can find on their website.

I never eart anyone about this fabric but on small samples: amazing results http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif. But given no one can get a decent HT size with a good frame with this fabric, no one seems to have tried it on "real" conditions http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif.

Maybe the best is to spend about $200 for an avalaible screen (50"x50" should be the cheapest) and share experiences http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif.


Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite 10-27-2000 01:04 PM

To all interested,

Da-Lite recently introduced a new screen surface named High Contrast Da-Mat at CEDIA 2000 in Indianapolis. The screen surface is exactly what you are discussing. It has a peak gain of 0.8 and a 40 degree half angle. This makes it perfect for high output LCD and DLP projectors. If you did not have a chance to see it at the show, please call for a free sample. With this new fabric, we have been able to lower the black levels without adversely affecting the peak white levels of the image. Hence, improving the contrast.


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Blake

[This message has been edited by Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite (edited 10-27-2000).]

Deniz Mutlu 10-27-2000 03:16 PM

Blake, is the HC Da-Mat surface smooth or textured/grainy? The reason I ask is because I'm not a fan of the Da-Lite Cinemavision 1.3 material due to the grainy surface.

Also, does the material have a backing so as not to let light through?

Thanks http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

damon 10-29-2000 10:31 AM

Blake,
The "grayest" appearance wise in your line is the "Super Wonder Lite" #4 correct? There is however a 70" size limitation. Mark

Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite 10-30-2000 06:23 AM

Deniz,

You asked:
is the HC Da-Mat surface smooth or textured/grainy? The reason I ask is because I'm not a fan of the Da-Lite Cinemavision 1.3 material due to the grainy surface.

Also, does the material have a backing so as not to let light through?



The HC Da-Mat material is in fact a smooth material. It is a flexible vinyl just like the Cinema Vision material. The big difference is the fact that it is gray in color as opposed to a white/pearl color and the gain is 0.8 rather than 1.3. The only things grainy about the Cinema Vision are the reflective particles. However, we have just made a change to the material to imbed those into the material so that it is a washable surface.

As for black backing on the material, yes it can have a black back. All electric screens with this material will be black backed.

Thanks,


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Blake

Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite 10-30-2000 06:30 AM

Mark,

You posted:

The "grayest" appearance wise in your line is the "Super Wonder Lite" #4 correct? There is however a 70" size limitation.


Until recently you are correct. The Super Wonder Lite material is a silver lenticular fabric. It was used quite extensively years ago. However, it is used today for only specialized applications. (i.e. 3D)

You are correct it is limited to 70" widths only. This is due to the size of the machine used to make the material. It is only 70" wide.

Thanks,




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Blake

Hugomed 10-30-2000 06:57 PM

Hey Blake
When is the screen going to be out.
I just bought a Dalite A month ago.
Manual rolldown.


Thanks Hugo

[This message has been edited by Hugomed (edited 10-31-2000).]

Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite 10-31-2000 12:31 PM

Hugo,

The HC Da-Mat fabric is available right now. We have rolls in stock to be able to make screens from. However, you need to keep in mind that this fabric is available on fixed frame wall screens and tab tensioned electric roll up screens.

Thanks,



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Blake

Jmartin 10-31-2000 08:01 PM

Hi Blake:

I'm interested in the gray electric role up and will be calling for a sample. Can your company perforate the black drop like other companies can?? This way I will be able to use my speakers over the top of the screen, directly behind.

Jaime

Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite 11-02-2000 07:07 AM

Jaime,

Sure we can do that. We do that all of the time. The only restriction is to make sure we do not exceed 24". It works best when we have between 12-16" of the drop perforated.

Thanks,


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Blake

[This message has been edited by Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite (edited 11-02-2000).]

paddy 11-03-2000 10:51 PM

Blake,

I became interested in your post and tried to get some info about prices, dimensions, framing, perforations, drops, etc. The person that I spoke to at Da-Lite said "um" about 200 times during our brief, non-informative conversation about this new product. When this person discovered that I was not a dealer, the individual told me that I needed to call my local Da-Lite dealer. I did. He had absolutely no knowledge about the new product, and told me he would call me back with details as soon as he found out anything. It has been over 48 hours and no word, probably because he heard the word "um" about 200 times.

I not trying to be mean, I realize it is a new product. But, I thought you would like to know what is happening in the real world. -Pat

cutman0122 11-04-2000 01:35 AM

Hello to all,

Here's an idea, instead of gray screens how about a gray filter placed in front of the projector lens? Or how about gray tinted lenses? Just a thought, happy viewing!

CUTMAN

arrow 11-04-2000 03:14 AM

Just to add to Paddy's post, I had the exact same experience today with Da-lite.

The woman I spoke with knew less about Da-lite than I did from the website and couldn't talk at all about the gray screen.

--Les

tdemelle 11-04-2000 08:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cutman0122:

Here's an idea, instead of gray screens how about a gray filter placed in front of the projector lens? Or how about gray tinted lenses?
One possible drawback of this idea is that heat is prevented from escaping from the projector as well as light.

In regard to experience with Da-Lite's phone reps, I spoke with one who wasn't familiar with the HC material sometime last week . I asked for a sample. I'll let y'all know if I ever get it.

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Todd

The HT-2-B

KBK 11-04-2000 08:10 PM

Um

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kelliot 11-05-2000 08:20 AM

My projector viewing area during the day showing the screen.

http://home1.gte.net/kelliot/avsforum/HTsmall.jpg

At the bottom of the screen are Kodak 90% and 18% grey cards for reference. (Note: 100% grey = white) I would guess 90% would correspond to a gain of 1.0 but I wouldn't bet on it.

Note the windows to the left, side and right. I've left the blinds on the left open so that truly high ambient light is present. This is worst case ambient as far as I'm concerned. My guess is about 100 lux. Note that most discussion at AVSforum concerns ambient at less than 1 lux.

http://home1.gte.net/kelliot/avsforum/HDdemo.jpg

This is a still shot of DirectTV Discovery HD demo loop off of channel 199. Even though the ambient is incredibly high one still gets a marginally viewable picture. Note the ambient coming through the blinds on all sides.

http://home1.gte.net/kelliot/avsforum/football.jpg

This is what I'm hoping to ultimately like to get with brightness, contrast, etc. This a still of the DTV HD football part of the demo. Most of the games are on during high ambient conditons, i.e. the afternoon.

http://home1.gte.net/kelliot/avsforum/dusk.jpg

At dusk. Notice the ambient coming in through the blinds. The camera (Canon S100) has a hard time picking up the projector black level. My eye can see it. The remaining black level is much more obvious as it gets darker.

Home lighting is much more objectionable than dusk ambient. In fact dusk ambient seems to enhance the apparent black level, whereas normal home lighting seems to worsen it.
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Ken Elliott

[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 11-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 11-07-2000).]

tdemelle 11-05-2000 11:51 AM

I received my HC DaMat sample in the mail on Saturday. It's a 7"x7" swath of the screen material. What I will most likely do when I get my projector set up is try to match some paint to the color and do a test to see if I lose too much of the high end in my room.

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Todd

The HT-2-B

johnswright 11-06-2000 08:27 AM

Say,

Was that 7x7 swatch of material the material you are going to build with? Did you buy it from them or did you have to send it back?

I may just want to get some o dat if the material from Consuela's Casa de Fabrico doesn't fly.

tdemelle 11-06-2000 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by johnswright:
Say,

Was that 7x7 swatch of material the material you are going to build with? Did you buy it from them or did you have to send it back?
John, the swatch I received from Da-Lite was a free sample. I need to run some brightness tests before I commit to a full fledged screen made of it.

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Todd

The HT-2-B

tdemelle 11-06-2000 08:19 PM

Nothing fancy. I just called and asked. The rep wasn't particularly familiar with the material (it is a new addition to their product line), but took down my info and got the swatch to me within a week. The 800 nymber is on the Da-Lite website.
http://www.dalite.com/products/

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Todd

The HT-2-B

[This message has been edited by tdemelle (edited 11-06-2000).]

kelliot 11-06-2000 10:33 PM

I got my piece of the DaMat grey today. It was darker than my screen as shown above, too dark for my taste.

I also got a piece a DaLite Super Wonder Lite. I like it better, but it was a bit too bright.

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Ken Elliott

KBK 11-07-2000 03:55 PM

Yep. remember what I said. Individual greys are what will work best. I am waiting for them to come to me...... If they come, I will build it.

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paddy 11-07-2000 07:12 PM

And where is it, that I would have to go? -Pat

[This message has been edited by paddy (edited 11-07-2000).]


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