KBK sent me a grey screen to try! Looks good! - AVS Forum
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Old 09-12-2000, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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You have all read a lot about KBK screen paint. He was nice enough to send me a sample screen to try.
This was a painted piece of screen fabric with no frame but I was able to attach it to a frame I had laying around for testing.
The only projector I had laying around was a 1 chip dlp.
KBK told me the screen paint was color corrected for use with a dlp using a uhp bulb so this worked out perfect.
Using my davis dlp and my HTPC the picture really did look great.
I had a stewart silver screen next to the grey screen and had the picture showing on both screens at once for comparison.
The grey screen was definitely sharper. The colors were also noticeably more accurate. Once I saw the colors on the grey screen I no longer liked the effect on colors the silver screen was producing.
I don't know how he figured out the proper color shift but it appeared to be accurate to my eye.
My only complaint was it needed more gain added to the high end of the grey scale.
He said this is very easy to do and will send me another piece to try.
I'm looking forward to it as it greatly improved the black level of the dlp.
I think if he can bring a finished product to market the grey screen will find its home amongst all digital projector owners as it really does bring a digital projector closer looking to a crt projector.



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Old 09-13-2000, 06:57 AM
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I haven't been able yet, to do a test screen with a newer batch of material, but I expect the gain characteristic to be about 1.5 times that of which I sent Alan. The gain I sent him was purposely dialed down, as I wanted to be sure there was no problem with projector/viewer positioning. The overal gain of the sample that I sent was about halfway between that of matte white and pearlecent.

What I sent him was a 'overall matte charateristic' luminous pearlecent grey. About 40% grey, color corrected to bring up the red and blue, to offset the greenish charateristic brought about by projector maufacturers using the supplied TI color wheels. In my limited experience, they tend to skew towards a false green in the sub-brightness characteristic, which brings up the lumen count for sales brochures, and tends to be the easiest to ignore when viewed by the human eye/brain combination.

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Old 09-13-2000, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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KBK
There is definelty a green cast the 1 chip dlp and your screen definetly
corrected this. This is a great idea, a screen color corrected for the lamp type used.


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Old 09-13-2000, 12:42 PM
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I'm a newbie - please explain this to me. If you project a white light on a grey screen, won't it look grey instead of white?

Thanks!
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Old 09-13-2000, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Gouger:
KBK
There is definelty a green cast the 1 chip dlp and your screen definetly
corrected this. This is a great idea, a screen color corrected for the lamp type used.
I can color correct for any lamp type and source of overall color imbalance.

Just like I have said, any projector, any lamp, any problem, anytime. Any design.

I need an example of a given model or design to get it right.

How would you like a screen design that was slaved to the color and contrast characteristics of, let's say, the JVC G11? Or whatever? No problem. Then there can be a range of gains availible for that type of screen, and other designs for each ambient level, within reason. I would have to make the screens in batches, to cut the expenditure level. If I made a screen for a G11, I would probably make 3-5 more, just to ease the manufaturing costs to a manageable level.

This is why I say that there can't really be a situation where these screens can be ISF certified. Making materials that can meet a nominal spec of such is relatively easy (And will definitely be happening!), but...Custom is Custom. A different thing altogether.



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Old 09-13-2000, 11:58 PM
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Alan

I am interested in the finished material, not the paint. I have several questions based on my experience.

1) How uniform is the texture? As pointed out by KBK and which I have verified with my attempts, its very difficult to get paint uniform. Also, if a canvas is used, the texture is accentuated and visible with the higher gain gray paints. These problems have led me to use a fabric screen but I would like something closer to 40% grey and with more gain.

2) Is the material stretchable? This is necessary for a flat screen.

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Old 09-14-2000, 06:39 AM
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Kelliot:

This is the way it went down.

I had some sample full size screens I had made for myself just as a method of testing mixtures out (full size is best if the thing seems workable). They were in no way to ever reperesent the issued product, but I was having a hard time slowing down and making finished screens, as I am having fun with different designs instead. In an attempt to get SOMETHING to Alan, I just sent him what I had lying around, with the caveats about it's condition in full disclosure.

I had chosen some material that was clearly a bad choice for putting the mixtures on. Purposely. I wanted to see how badly a prospective purchaser could screw up in attempt to get a good screen.

So, I took a finalized mixture, and put it on a really bad material. I painted it while it was hung on a bad wall surface that caused some noticable problems when rolling. To top it off, there where serious problems with the material. I botched it quite badly... on purpose.

This is the screen I sent Alan. I told him this before I sent him the screen. I stated ' This is as bad as it can get...' I also stated, 'Most would say, "why don't you send your best?", I turned that around and said, "This is the worst I can do"'

It was like going to war, but breaking your limbs before you set off....

And it still came out superior, with all of it's flaws.

All that's left is a position of strength.

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Old 09-14-2000, 07:06 AM
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KBK,

Tell me are you going to be matching screens to different projector types? If that's the case maybe a great idea would be to match a paint to the Sony VHW10. Do you think it'd be easy to optimize your "Grey Technology" to LCD's?

R-S
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Old 09-14-2000, 08:46 AM
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So are you planning to sell the paint or the screens? Won't paint chip on a rolled or folded screen when shipped, or is it more of a dye? Are the "rules" for gain about the same as DaLite, Draper, etc...ie will they increase the light reflected as much as a 1.3 or 2.5 gain Draper or does the gray color require a higher lumen projector? Is off axis viewing affected the same?

Those of us hoping to replace CRT with DLP anxiously await test results!

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Old 09-14-2000, 09:33 PM
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It is possible to have a grey screen that has a gain of, lets say 2.5, while it still may not appear very 'bright'. That is because the screen cannot in any way increase the projector's contrast ratio. All it is used for is to bring about a situation where the apparent black level is where it should be, whilst doing the picture as little harm as possible. When pulling down the apparent black level, attention must be paid to where the overall contast range will eventually sit. Both ends of that equation cannot be fully satisfied, as the projector is limited in it's capacities.

CRT's have a infinite black level>>>> white screens work.

And, the collary of that statement is: Digital projectors have an infinite white level>>>>black screens work.

Their problems and solutions are opposite in nature.

Digital projection systems are not quite infinite in their white level, so a grey screen -properly calibrated and slaved to that particular design- will have to do. Until 15-20k lumen digital projectors are commonplace, or some other such equivalent situation.

UNTIL THIS TAKES PLACE, NO DIGITAL PROJECTION SYSTEM WILL HAVE A WORKABLE IMAGE.

I have the skills and capacities to complete this formula for successful completion of the presentation of a satisfying image....


Not a single one of you has ever stepped forward with a projector. Individuals, companies, corporations, whatever.


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Old 09-15-2000, 05:47 AM
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I'm just trying to stir up trouble here...

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Old 09-15-2000, 08:52 AM
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UNTIL THIS TAKES PLACE, NO DIGITAL PROJECTION SYSTEM WILL HAVE A WORKABLE IMAGE.

I'm having more of a problem getting acceptable source material.

(It's hard to stir the pot on the Screens forum. Now if you go to the non-CRT Projector forum and say something bad about Sony 10HTs, I'm sure you'll get a response.)

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Old 09-16-2000, 12:10 PM
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Sony 10HTs? Isn't that what some people call a dust trap? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
No longer! Not with a dedicated KBK grey screen.

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Old 09-16-2000, 04:54 PM
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Hey Brett, Kelliot,
I'm staying away from the expensive vacuam cleaner forum. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif
I might get lynched.
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Old 09-16-2000, 08:44 PM
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KBK-

I have an NEC LT-100 and would love to acquire one of your screens or kits set up for my DLP. What can I do to make it happen? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif
Is airbrushing the medium on a screen totally out of the question? I'm an artist by trade and have had excellent results with evenness of density and smooth surfacing using a large Iwata airbrush and a compressed air tank (electric compressors can pulse and cause unevenness). Also, are you adding a magenta or purple tint to a neutral grey to achieve your DLP color balance?

--Allen B.

(correction-I have since read your other thread, KBK, and I'm now up to speed on your development http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif )

[This message has been edited by BarkingArt (edited 09-17-2000).]

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Old 09-17-2000, 12:57 AM
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What is the overall color balance of the NEC LT-100? is it similar to the others? Or is the tint falsely skewed by the bulb temp?

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Old 09-17-2000, 12:24 PM
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And if the lumen count (output) is high enough, then there is very little that I need to do to the existing mix to make it work with the higher output DLP's.

I will bring the gain up, as I have stated.

I am going to look at some different possibilites for base material now.

There should be a high quality 'standard' of fabric that can be used across the board for all of the different paint mixtures, so tha it can be picked up almost anywere.

We should get together here, and create a demand for a 'standard' backing material, selected out of OEM or generic selection. There is probably a 'blackout' material that is used in high-end curtian design that is built to last 20 or more years with a minimal amount of degredation, and is reasonable in price, and perfect for this application. I could become a supplier for such, but I would urge one to find the appropriate material in their respective areas.... after all, this is about price vs. performance.

It is interesting to note that, when the black level on one of these projectors is corrected to a reasonable level, then the high output becomes meaningless, and the projected image's 'intensity' tends to scale down to that of the average high output CRT projector. But at least it works.

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Old 09-17-2000, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarkingArt:
KBK-

Is airbrushing the medium on a screen totally out of the question? I'm an artist by trade and have had excellent results with evenness of density and smooth surfacing using a large Iwata airbrush and a compressed air tank (electric compressors can pulse and cause unevenness

--Allen B.
I have used high grade pulse-less air brush compressors before with air bearing turntables. Some of the better italian designed ones come to mind.$1k or so. Very funky. I let a Twin turbine HVLP (120psig max) pass through my hand for $300 cdn. I had no idea what I was letting go of at the time. I can also build my own plenum.... no big deal. I have a friend that was lookng at building noiseless automotive mufflers, and we have had some major discussions of the theory and execution of such.

This stuff, as it now stands, is perfect for airbrush or sprayers. If you have painted a car before, or done your house with a Wagner, you are probably going to have no trouble at all. Careful. Very expensive learning curve. If one is to try and get good with this paint, it is best to learn on similarly 'thinned' house paint....at $15 a gallon, not $100 a litre, thank you very much...

And if you know paints, you know I am not overcharging.

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Old 09-17-2000, 04:40 PM
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And if you know screens, you know KBK is not overcharging.


BTW Uncle Eric, sorry... but I thought you enjoyed the heat of the arena? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
Must have forgotten it's not the CRT forum (liked the nerve of it).
It's been edited.

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Old 09-17-2000, 08:09 PM
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And what did unca eric do? did he deposit solid waste materials on the good doctor's original maise morning fast?

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Old 09-17-2000, 10:28 PM
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The LT-100 appears to have a yellow-green color imbalance. Based on what I've read from the other DLP posts, it probably fits into your typical DLP color correction category. Reds have that rust (orange) quality to them that can't be tuned out with the projector's menu options.

A woman is weeping over shadows on a screen, a man gets excited over ink on a page, a child is frightened over words in a book-
The mind gets caught up in the unreal and people become identified with it. But its power is such that it rules the world.
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Old 09-18-2000, 09:47 PM
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Hi,

Can these screens be used as portable screens? In other words can they be repeatedly rolled up and unrolled?

Thanks,

Mitch
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Old 09-19-2000, 12:09 AM
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If the proper base material is chosen, yes.

I was brining a sample that was a less than 12 hours old to show to someone, and it was on a piece of curtian blackout. I folded it over about 8 times, and folded and unfolded it repeatedly. No damage.


As an addition: I have a feeling that if one placed the painted side of the fabric down, on a ironing board, and had the iron on low heat, and kept moving, it would be entire POSSIBLE to remove any wrinkles to the blackout fabric due to shipping folds or creases. I still have the folded example around, it has been sitting on the arm of a chair (keeping my feet off of the arm of the couch (when I am potato-ing)) for more than a week. Maybe I will see what happens when I iron it. Maybe I will see what level of heat is required to ruin the surface charateristic of the combined materials. next issue: skeet shooting with screens!! will they survive??
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Old 09-22-2000, 07:42 PM
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You should be using white paint for the personal manufacture of a screen for a CRT. This is the way to achieve the maximum contrast out of the type of system of electronics that is is, and how it works.

There are many differnt considerations in the actual paint choices, and I urge you to look and read very carefully the posts on ' best homemade screen, started by Brett, and the thread "Custom Screen Paint' started by KBK.

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Old 09-26-2000, 03:09 PM
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KBK-

What's the current status of your grey screen grail? Any product yet? I am waiting in eager anticipation of a product so that I can build my own screen with your technology implemented.

Hope all is well. ------A.

[This message has been edited by BarkingArt (edited 09-27-2000).]

A woman is weeping over shadows on a screen, a man gets excited over ink on a page, a child is frightened over words in a book-
The mind gets caught up in the unreal and people become identified with it. But its power is such that it rules the world.
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Old 09-27-2000, 05:13 PM
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Product soon, I hope. The high gain version of the DLP paint has to be test manufactured, and then actually tested. The First CRT paint: the same. A freind has cheerfully agreed to have a high gain-high grade CRT screen sprayed on the drywall screen he set up just recently.

Another person in the european continent will be recieving a test batch soon of the CRT paint.
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Old 09-29-2000, 07:58 PM
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This paint is going places.


What do you think of spraying it unto this baby?:


http://americanpowerlight.com/index.html
(Le Ecran)

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Old 09-29-2000, 08:37 PM
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I managed to fix all of the problems that NXT panels have about 2 years ago. I have so many other directions to pursue that I have never managed to get back to it. Too many questions. Too many answers. Not enough time. That's my core specialty. Impedance. Of ALL kinds.


Oh Yes, The CRT paint has a 'gain characteristic', as far as I can reasonably guess, of about 1.35. And nearly perfect color balance.
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Old 09-30-2000, 12:21 AM
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Nothing like consumer interest to culture attention span and a need to focus.

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Old 10-03-2000, 04:42 AM
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KBK:

As far as I can remember your effort originally started with the intent to provide a self-made high quality and cheap alternative to regular screens bought from screen manufacturers. From all that I read now, I derive that you have found something unique which should IMHO not only be used for self-made screens, but also for professional ready screens.
Have you already thought about selling your expertise in this field to regular screen manufacturers like DaLite, Draper, Stewart, ...?
This would help a lot of people which are not ready to make their own screen (like me) and increase your market more rapidly. It also would be possible to support most of the projectors in the market because of the higher numbers.

I would buy such a color corrected grey screen without much hesitation if it would come from i.E. DaLite.

BTW, are your screen paints usable for roll screens?

Emil
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