Stewart Greyhawk Beta - First Impressions - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 63 Old 12-26-2000, 10:21 PM
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Dennis,

So you haven't seen this? It's easy to see when you zoom in and out. The moire grows and shrinks as you zoom. The cyan background shows it best or an expanse of blue sky, (aka U-571).

Do you always use an ISCO or are your installations always native. What size screens do you typically use? Again 96" is near a null and anything over 115 wide may also not show the problem. Is the perf pattern I describe what you use as well?

If you have the chance to experiment, would you? If I'm the only one who sees this, then I'm temporarily at a loss.

What do you mean by rotating the G11 right or left? The G11 is set so that the panels are centered to the center of the screen. Do you mean offset the centers? Even though I don't see how this could possibly help, I'm willing to give it a shot. Thanks for your quick response.

Mark,

I think that the screen is a good compromise at least for my G11. What is your screen size? Since you also have a G11, you might think about a larger screen http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif.

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post #32 of 63 Old 12-26-2000, 10:54 PM
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I think that the moire has to be there. Staggered rows of .140" width mean an effective row width of .070". Dividing my null position of 95" by 1365, (the D-ILA panel grid), yields .070". Basically, a 95" zoom makes the G11 'pixel perfect' with the hole grid on the screen. As to why I don't see it above 115", I forgot to refocus so the jury is still out.

The biggest question I have is why does no one else see this???? Perhaps the ISCO solves this in some magical way. Or perhaps no one was looking for it and now that I've pointed it out everyone will see it, (if so, I apologise in advance http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ).

I'm hoping against hope that Don Stewart will chime in and tell me that they sent the wrong perf type and that all's well. Or when my ISCO arrives, it will do some magic.

Please excuse the verbage on this issue, but it really is bugging me that I'm the only one who sees it. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif

Phil
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post #33 of 63 Old 12-26-2000, 11:36 PM
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Well, I took the ISCO lens off and watched a number of different scenes from Super Speedway, Shakespeare in Love, and several other DVDs with sky shots to look for moire patterns.

If I got exactly the right combination of image size and flat background, I could see a faint moire pattern. But I would have to look carefully for it, and it was less apparent than the MPEG compression artifacts on the sky shots on the DVDs.

I don't have the U571 DVD to compare, but at least on my setup with a G15 and HTPC the moire effect was very very slight, in a narrow zoom/screen size range, and only visible with a white field or sky scenes.

I have no doubt that Phil is seeing some moire issue, but the most that I could coax out of my setup (without the ISCO lens) would not be noticable by a casual viewer, so I can only guess that there is something else in Phil's configuration that is bringing out this visual problem.

I watched clips from as close as 7' away, and as far as 15'. With the screen size ranging from 72" wide to 120" wide.

-Dean.
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post #34 of 63 Old 12-27-2000, 06:41 AM
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If contrast level response is maintained, and color temp is correct, then 'white level' strictly becomes a eye-optical diliation issue, and is therefore moot.

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post #35 of 63 Old 12-27-2000, 05:33 PM
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Dean,

Thanks for taking the time. I suppose that the extra brightness of the G15 may also minimixe the problem. In addition, your G15 has been calibrated while my G11 has not. Also, as with the color wheel on DLP's, some people are more sensitive than others to certain artifacts.

I'm glad to hear that the problem isn't as bad on a larger screen. I'm going to 'noodle' on this problem for awhile as I think that I can offer Stewart a possible solution, (or at least minimization). More to come after I've done some more math.

A note to others,

This has nothing to do with the Grayhawk per se. It is the micro-perf interaction with the D-ILA grid, (which is easily calculated), which can occur on any screen type. The greyness of the Grayhawk, may actually minimize the issue by making the difference between the screen and the holes less, (I hope that made sense http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ).


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post #36 of 63 Old 12-28-2000, 02:06 AM
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Phil,

Actually, having previously had a G1000, and changing to a G15 I could see the screen perforations much more clearly with twice the light output on the same screen size, and I had to back up my seating a couple feet to not see the perforations with bright movie scenes on my Draper Audiovision screen. So it should be worse with the G15 compared to a G11.
The Stewart perforated screen has smaller holes which have actually made the perforations much less visible, and the gray screen and lower gain helped as well.

Although I could see a faint moire without the 16:9 lens (it's NOT visible with the ISCO lens) that wouldn't keep me from recommending the Grayhawk screen material to a D-ILA owner because the effect was so minimal, being barely visible, and it was within a narrow screen size range, and only in some particular scenes.

My wife couldn't see any moire patterns on the paused sky shots even when I tried to point them out to her, so I'd say that it's a safe bet that most people won't see it in normal movie watching, and resizing the picture slightly would make it unnoticable.

It's similar to having the phase or tracking off on the D-ILA FPTV, the picture is not as optimal as when it is perfectly aligned, but most people wouldn't say the projector was flawed when watched without perfect pixel alignment.

-Dean.
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post #37 of 63 Old 12-28-2000, 11:31 AM
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Dean,

That's good news regarding the ISCO. All of your thoughts make sense about the G15, etc. Unfortunately the moire appears too obvious for my taste. My wife spotted them right off as well.

Would it be possible for me to stop by and see your new setup in the next week or two? That way I can calibrate what I see on my setup vs yours. I could even bring my G11 if you like. I'd also like to come over just to see your latest goodies http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif. After all, it's your fault I bought one of the sweet machines in the first place http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif.

If it's too much trouble, I'll understand.

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post #38 of 63 Old 12-28-2000, 11:38 AM
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I just wanted to reiterate that the moire issues that I am seeing have NOTHING to do with the Grayhawk screen material. It is strictly a prolem with the perf pattern and it's interaction with the D-ILA panel grid.

If anything, the Grayhawk material should minimize this effect.

I think that Don Stewart has a real winner on his hands and I would not hesitate recommending the Grayhawk to anyone with a D-ILA.

Phil
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post #39 of 63 Old 12-28-2000, 12:15 PM
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Phil,

You are quite welcome to come by and visit. And it would be good to bring your G11 to compare, and get a chance to see what you are seeing. What are your video inputs that you are watching the DVDs with? S-Video, HTPC, external scaler, PS-DVD player?

-Dean.
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post #40 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 11:01 AM
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I think the color of the back wall/surface behind the screen may have an impact on moire noticeability. Distance to the screen may as well.
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post #41 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 11:09 AM
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Good points! When I set up again to test the ISCO, I'll try different background materials behind the screen. Everyone says black but I wonder if a white sound transparent fabric might also work. This could indeed lessen the effect.

As to screen distance. I think I recall that the problem was easier to observe farther away and quite difficult up close, (a few inches). I'll have to test for this as well.

I think I have an idea for a solution but it will have to wait till I get my ISCO so that I can confirm that it works under all conditions.

Thanks, Phil
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post #42 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 11:59 AM
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I have a 8' deep shadowbox setup with black curtains and black masking around the screen and black felt on the wall behind it.
When I got my G15 I had to add the black felt behind the screen as the extra light reflected visibly through the screen perforations off the back wall and speakers.

Phil,

No need to bring the HTPC, as I have a similar setup. But it would be good to bring your VGA to RGB cable as mine is hooked up to the G15 inside the hushbox, and a pain to swap out.

I'm eager to see the ISCO II lens compared with my regular ISCO lens.

-Dean.
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post #43 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 01:58 PM
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Phil & Dean,

Can you guys take some digital pictures of your visit and post them? Although I've only had my G11 for less than a year, I have pretty much already decided that my next projector will probably be a G15 or equivalent.

Thanks!

Mark

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post #44 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 03:38 PM
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Go for the G20, Mark.

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post #45 of 63 Old 12-29-2000, 10:57 PM
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Dean,

I'm using an HTPC, (Elsa Gladiac GTS-2,ASUS CUSL2,etc.). Should I bring that along as well?

I'd like to wait until I get my ISCO-2 so we can compare it with your ISCO-1. According to Alan, it's supposed to be much sharper so it may not mask the moire as well but should produce superior picture detail.

I'll firm up a date with you when I get the ISCO, (expected next week some time). See you in a couple of weeks.

Phil
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post #46 of 63 Old 12-30-2000, 11:50 AM
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Mark,

If I remember to, I'll try and get some pictures, but often the pictures represent the cameras abilities/limitations as much as the projector or screens qualities.

By the way, I've been playing my Dreamcast games on the D-ILA and for some reason there is even a better improvement in black level and contrast with the games over movies. It's probably the bright contrasting images, but with the VGA box the picture looks like a computer monitor.

It's Great, but I'm going to get sucked into using up my bulb up playing games on the big screen if I don't stop soon.

-Dean.
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post #47 of 63 Old 12-30-2000, 05:25 PM
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Dean,

Sounds good, although I might want to bring my PC anyway just to compare the output to yours, (see my question to Mark below). I have a VGA to RGB cable that's about 5' long is that ok? If not, let me know and I'll whip one up. I'm going to make my own cable when I permantly mount the G11 so I have all the connectors/cable now, (I'm currently working on an oak hush box).

As soon as I get the ISCO I'll let you know.

Mark,

Perhaps I can also get a picture of the moire and post it. That way people will know what the heck I'm talking about.

A question for you. Is the gamma different for copmuter vs video input. The YUV from my Dish 6000 looks fantastic compared to the HTPC input to either computer 1 or 2.

I just wonder if the video inputs are optimized for video while the computer inputs are optimized for graphics. The difference in picture quality is night and day. So good is the video,in fact, that I've been tempted to drive the YUV from the HTPC through a converter until you get DILARD in shape.

Phil
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post #48 of 63 Old 12-30-2000, 07:59 PM
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Phil,

Bringing your PC is fine. I have power connections for it, but I suspect that the picture from the HTPCs will look the same.

My PC and DTC-100 are about 15' away from my projector, so I have 20' cables for VGA (2), Serial, and S-Video connections.

-Dean.
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post #49 of 63 Old 01-01-2001, 06:20 PM
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Phil,

I think the point of moving or rotating the projector very slightly is to shift the pixel gaps onto the perforations, so that there is no varying image on them.

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post #50 of 63 Old 01-02-2001, 08:30 PM
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Noah,

That doesn't work with moire, it merely moves where the patterns appear. I think that there are only a few solutions to the problem, which I'll be studying when my ISCO arrives.

Thanks,
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post #51 of 63 Old 01-02-2001, 10:28 PM
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So Phil, what are some of the solutions? Visibility of the perfs and moire are my big concerns on the Greyhawk. I am hoping that the Grey will actually create less contrast with the perfs themselves. I saw a 1.3 gain microperfed screen a couple of weeks ago and the perfs were quite black as oposed to the white screen. It did bug me. My present HT design will have a Microperf screen though so I am weighing the merit of this Screen.

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post #52 of 63 Old 01-03-2001, 09:16 AM
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Cameron,

The perfs are barely visible at 8 feet. The miore is a different matter. Some claim not to see it, others see it but say it's not annoying. However, like many, once I see something, I can't NOT see it anymore.

If you can set the screen so that the perfs match the projector grid exactly there won't be any moire. I think that also when the sizes are far enough apart the moire will also not be visible.

When I get my ISCO, I plan on doing definitive testing on a range of options to see how effectively I can eliminate the effect. Hopefully I will be getting the ISCO in a few days so that I can begin.

Also, by going to Dean's house, I will be able to calibrate what I am seeing to what he sees. Between us we will have an ISCO-1 ans ISCO-2, G11 and G15, and a 13' wide, (I think), Greyhawk perf'd screen to play with.

What type of a projector do you have? I think that Don Stewart had a solution for moire on the Sony LCD.

My guess is that the Greyhawk does indeed minimize perf visibility, perhaps Dean can chime in as he has owned a 1 gain perf screen as well as the Greyhawk beta perf.

Again, if you can wait a couple of weeks, I should have all of my testing done and have some difinitive results to report.

Thanks,
Phil
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post #53 of 63 Old 01-03-2001, 09:22 AM
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Phil,
When are you going to Deans house?
We are very interested in your results.
Regards,
Don
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post #54 of 63 Old 01-03-2001, 04:47 PM
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Hi Phil,

There is only one gamma curve in the DILA for all 44 inputs & source areas. However, each setting does have it's own R, G, B gain, color temp, tint and sharpness settings. This might explain a little of what you are seeing.

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post #55 of 63 Old 01-03-2001, 08:06 PM
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OK. I don't have a projector yet, but it looks like I am headed towards the XGA DLPs if everything looks good at CES. Maybe it won't be a problem but I am a nitpicker on large investments like this.

I am pretty sure that I am not the only one here that is a nitpicker. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Cameron

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post #56 of 63 Old 01-03-2001, 10:14 PM
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Don,

I am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my ISCO-2. That way Dean and I will have a lot to play with. Dean, I hope you'll have a few hours! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif Seriously, I would like to try every configuration possible so that our testing is definitive.

I am confident that there is a magic combination of influences that will solve this problem, (ever the optimist). I just don't know what they are yet!

I'll call Alan again tomorrow and ask for an update. I just hope that I don't pi$$ him off too much. I hate being bugged about things that I have no control over, so I can sympathize if he feels the same.

Perhaps I can convince him to call me the moment it arrives so that we can decide on the optimum shipping option, but that may be too pretentious of me.

I really want a Greyhawk so I am going to make every effort to solve this. You have a great product on your hands and I don't want to miss out on it if at all possible.

Phil
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post #57 of 63 Old 01-04-2001, 09:04 AM
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Cameron,

The DLP's are a different animal than the D-ILA's so the moire effect will be different. Since the Sony LCD had a problem that was solved with the Signus lens and the DLP you are describing has the same resolution, I would think that the Signus would solve any issues that you may have as well.

I base this on the fact that DLP's have a better fill factor than LCD's so I may be all wet if this is not true.

There may be some Greyhawk beta sites that use a DLP and perf screen but I haven't been following them. I would contact Don Stewart directly and ask him for any info on a beta site with your proposed setup.

Good luck,
Phil
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post #58 of 63 Old 01-04-2001, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So you haven't seen this? It's easy to see when you zoom in and out. The moire grows and shrinks as you zoom. The cyan background shows it best or an expanse of blue sky, (aka U-571).

Do you always use an ISCO or are your installations always native. What size screens do you typically use? Again 96" is near a null and anything over 115 wide may also not show the problem. Is the perf pattern I describe what you use as well?

If you have the chance to experiment, would you? If I'm the only one who sees this, then I'm temporarily at a loss.</font>
Phil:

Sorry...been on the road for weeks (seems like months)..even went on vacation in Florida...just in time for the cold snap. geeze.

In any event, I've used 96 wide screens, G11 and the native lens (no panamorph). I have a couple of much larger screens in the offing (15' wide) but not yet up. The only smaller screen I've used (92" wide) was on a CRT projector. End of the day, I'm either blind (ask the driver next to me for that opinion) or haven't seen a moire pattern no matter what I do. I had a show home set up with an HT250 and a microperf...again, no moire problems.

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post #59 of 63 Old 01-07-2001, 02:12 AM
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Phil,

Have to ask an stupid question: must you use a perforated screen with your video set up?

-THTS
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post #60 of 63 Old 01-08-2001, 09:40 AM
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I have a similar question to Frank's. Is the Grayhawk only available as a perforated screen? If not, is a non-perforated version less expensive?

Ben
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