Da-lite 1.3 gain and sparkelies? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 15 Old 06-26-2001, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BrianB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buckley WA 98321
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My Da-Lite screen has this "feature" and was wondering if there is a way to eliminate it. I purchased this screen in October of 99 and thought it was a little odd but assumed it was supposed to be that way until I saw recently saw a Stewart screen. Is this a problem, can I do anything about it?

------------------
Brian

Brian
BrianB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 Old 07-01-2001, 01:06 AM
Senior Member
 
J_Nemeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I helped a friend set up his theater with this screen, and I have to say it is the worst looking screen material I have ever seen. Noticeable hot spotting, and the sparklies remove all believability from the image. Instead of feeling like you are seeing thru the screen to an image with some sense of depth, your eyes are constantly aware that the light is hitting this material. It's like hearing a loudspeaker instead of the music coming out of it. How this screen got the ISF seal of approval is beyond me.

Sorry if I'm ranting, and I have no suggestion for you other than you can you use this material to lay down on when you change the oil on your car.

------------------
Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it is supposed to be seen?"

[This message has been edited by J_Nemeth (edited 07-01-2001).]

Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it was meant to be seen?"
J_Nemeth is offline  
post #3 of 15 Old 07-01-2001, 07:02 AM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Say...aren't you awaiting a piece of material from me? Well, I hope you like it, but, of course i wouldn't let it go if I thought it couldn't take the pressure....

BTW. It's probably more like 1.25 gain, not 1.3. But it's behavior is very uniform. Color is fabulous and it has no shifting and hotspotting.. but of course that is subjective and personal accoding to one's own perception. Remember it's primary useage. So, it really cannot be allowed to have noticable hotspotting. The angle of view of the audience can be quite severe.

------------------
goosystems.com

Ken Hotte
kbk@cyberfreak.dhs.org

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
post #4 of 15 Old 07-01-2001, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BrianB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buckley WA 98321
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi jay,
I couldn't agree with you more. Makes me think that the isf
must have needed a little cash when da-lite walked in the door. Now I have to justify a Stewart screen to my wife. I like the car Ideahttp://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Brian

Brian
BrianB is offline  
post #5 of 15 Old 07-02-2001, 02:10 PM
Member
 
Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Warsaw, IN USA
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
O.K. before things get too heated on this post, I wanted to address the issue that Brian has raised directly.

Brian do you remember who you purchased your screen through back in 1999? If so, please contact them and have them call me directly. What I will do is arrange for a replacement with our new Cinema Vision 1.3 gain material.

You see when we first introduced the Cinema Vision fabric (about 5-6 years ago) we developed it with Joe Kane and Joel Silver (at that time)both of ISF. The reflective materials that we used for the screen were perfect for the output of the projectors at the time and there were no sparkling issues. What has happened (as we all know) is that the projectors have gotten much brighter in just the last 1-2 years. When that happened, we noticed right away that the brightness of the projectors were causing the "Sparklies" that you are talking about. So therefore, we made a change to the material in order to eliminate this problem in late 1999. What we did was to use a different type of reflective particle that is much smaller than the original and much more uniform.

I can very confidently say to you that any Cinema Vision screen sent out today does not exhibit these "Sparklie" characteristics and provides a superb, artifact free image.

I can be reached at our 800 number (800-622-3737) or by e-mail at bbrubaker@da-lite.com


Thanks,



------------------
Blake

Blake Brubaker, CTS
Vice President of Sales
Da-Lite Screen Company, Inc.
Blake Brubaker - Da-Lite is offline  
post #6 of 15 Old 07-03-2001, 01:28 AM
Senior Member
 
J_Nemeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 307
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by KBK:
Say...aren't you awaiting a piece of material from me? Well, I hope you like it, but, of course i wouldn't let it go if I thought it couldn't take the pressure....

Don't worry Ken, I'm looking at your material as an experiment. If it looks good, I'll use it in my room and may even want to get some more for a couple of other installs I'm helping out on. It's when you pay full price for something that has a stated level of quality, that I get critical.

I'd like to commend Blake from Da-Lite for standing behind his product and offering the upgrade to Brian. Does that offer extend to my buddy with the bad experience? I know he is unhappy with his sparklies.


------------------
Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it is supposed to be seen?"

Jay

"Can I please just watch this the way it was meant to be seen?"
J_Nemeth is offline  
post #7 of 15 Old 07-03-2001, 01:48 AM
Senior Member
 
cutman0122's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 203
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Blake,
Thats funny, the Cinema Vision sample that came in the package I received from your company recently, exhibited these sparklies. Could the old CV versions still being circulated around as samples? I must say though, it did take a while with numerous side by side comparisons to see the sparklies. Too bad, I really liked the picture too!

Gerald
cutman0122 is offline  
post #8 of 15 Old 07-03-2001, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BrianB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Buckley WA 98321
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thank's for the reply Blake. Sorry for the tone of my post. I guess I was a "little" upset when I saw the Stewart. I bought the screen through taw.com and will give them a call about the screen. I also have the shipping paper from Da-Lite with the P.O. number on it If that will help.
Happy Fourth of July to all!

------------------
Brian

Brian
BrianB is offline  
post #9 of 15 Old 07-05-2001, 09:14 PM
Advanced Member
 
KFung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 879
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Almost all gain screen will have sparklies to some degree, that is a characteristic of the coating. Most of the time this will not be noticeable from any viewing distance, the "brightness" of the sparklies is also variable. Anyways, if you look closely at any gain screen sample you will see the sparkly bits, it shouldn't be a problem in normal viewing conditions though. Of course one should let their eyes be the judge.

Regards,

Kam Fung
KFung is offline  
post #10 of 15 Old 07-07-2001, 06:19 AM
Advanced Member
 
tpfarr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Maryland
Posts: 567
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is not true of the Da-lite Hi-power screen. Since the reflective particles are so small you cannot see any sparkelies and significantly there is no hotspotting.

------------------
Tom Pfarr
http://www.toad.net/~tpfarr/Hometheater.htm

Tom Pfarr

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
tpfarr is offline  
post #11 of 15 Old 07-09-2001, 08:48 AM
Advanced Member
 
KFung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 879
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tom,

I imagine you could see them if you looked close enough, but that's really the point. Sparklies shouldn't be viewable in most cases unless you right up at the screen examining it.

Regards,

Kam Fung
KFung is offline  
post #12 of 15 Old 07-13-2001, 12:04 PM
Member
 
tcumbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had 2 of those Cinema-Vision screens sent to me *after* the reformulation and could ALWAYS detect the sparklies. My W400Q produced only about 280 lumens, but in bright sunlite sky-scenes the screen was sparkling like the sea.

I finally replaced it with a Da-Mat (1.1) screen, which to my eye had the exact same gain, minus the sparklies. You should consider this product, especially if Dalite will replace it free-of-charge (as they did mine).

------------------
- Tom C

- Tom C
tcumbo is offline  
post #13 of 15 Old 07-14-2001, 04:59 AM
Member
 
Carcarodon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Yikes! I'm snooping around for a screen and this thread put me on notice to REALLY do my homework. I've been contemplating either a DIY w/ KBKs Goo or a Da-lite Glass Bead 72-96 (From the posts it seemed like a good screen for a 1270 ceiling mount). Forgive my general ignorance, but will a 2.5 gain screen have the "sparklies"? Should I be thinking matte white instead? I've been setting up the 1270 on a beige wall and after the "Holy smokes" factor has subsided a bit, am looking for the next step down the road of habitual tweaking. Thanks to all here for their collective wisdom.

------------------
Dangerous Newbie setting up a VPH-1270Q and HTPC w/ GeForce256 GTS

The art and science of spending vast sums of money to avoid attending the local cineplex/daycare center!
Carcarodon is offline  
post #14 of 15 Old 07-14-2001, 07:57 PM
Member
 
Carcarodon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Ken... that clears it up a bit. I suppose everyone sits down the first time and says "Give me a 10' picture!" I was at Jo-Anns and picked up some satin (matte on one side highly reflective on the other) for about 1.75 a yard. After tacking it up on the wall flipped on the ole PJ and observed EXACTLY what you said above. On the shiny side was able to decrease contrast to 50 and bright to about 40 to achieve the same picture quality/contrast I had on the bare wall. Picture appeared much more vibrant as well...ahah! It's TOO vibrant. I see the "hotspots" (FYI have it currently set to shoot about 52x92 Widescreen at about 8.2 feet). So according to your post, it's much better for the projector (at least the 1270) to run on a higher gain screen. Having no prior experience judging gain..heck I haven't even seen (done close up observation) a "real" screen, I would guess this stuff is way up there..VERY reflective. Well back to the wall. I've seen a couple of posts from people who requested swatches from da-lite/stewart et al, maybe I'll try to get a better feel for this by trying a few out. Thanks again!

------------------
Dangerous Newbie setting up a VPH-1270Q and HTPC w/ GeForce256 GTS

The art and science of spending vast sums of money to avoid attending the local cineplex/daycare center!
Carcarodon is offline  
post #15 of 15 Old 07-14-2001, 09:48 PM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
A couple of factors have to be considered. One, the contrast range that you wish to achieve, balanced against what the PJ can produce. This combines with sharpness and ouput level. The whole equation that you can achieve is dependant on what screen material you choose. If the gain is too high.. you get too much colorshift, too much light output drop-off in the corners,and too much hotspotting. It's a tough mixture to get right. The trick is to see enough screens under enough different conditons, and to get to what you need with as little expense and hassle as possible. The learning curve can be very expensive and frustrating. It all depends on how easy you are to satisfy,and when the situation reaches your personal satisfaftion point. ie,where you feel you have 'enough'.

If you push your screen size too high with that PJ, you will need to compensate with a higher gain screen material. This will allow you to keep your contrast range up a bit, without pushing the PJ too hard. For instance, a PJ like yours should not be used with a diagonal of over approximately 84". Many people push them alot higher, like 96" or greater. In these csases it is very advisable to go to a higher gain screen, like about 1.5 or so. Once you get above a gain of 1.5 or so, the hotspotting and colorshift tend to get close to the annoyance factor point. But, anything lower brings about too much pressure on the PJ's tubes, and prematurely ages the PJ. Or, you end up with a soft and dim image. This is why I made the screen paint in the 1.5-1.6 gain area. It pushes the limit, and maintains great color accuracy. If I was to push the gain higher, appliction would become very difficult, unless you where spraying the paint. Spraying is HIGHLY recomended.

------------------
goosystems.com

Ken Hotte
kbk@cyberfreak.dhs.org

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
Closed Thread Screens

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off