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post #91 of 152 Old 03-18-2001, 01:36 PM
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Revisiting this classic thread, but for a reason.

After building my blackout fabric/flyscreen frame screen (see page 3) I've just gone the whole hog and excavated a basement home cinema! Now I'll have my projector mounted behind the rear wall (to cut down on noise), with a screen on the front wall. Every man's dream...

Problem is even when zoomed out to its minimum size the new image will be larger than my old 54" high screen (hey, since when are big screen sizes a problem? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ) The throw distance is longer than with my existing living room setup.

So I need to find screen material that is wider than 54" - which is the maximum I can find locally. I'm *very* happy with the blackout material otherwise.

So far after trawling through the home-made screen posts (and ending up back at this one) I have found one site in the US that offers 72" width http://www.solarfective.com but obviously would like to source locally if possible. My builder already thinks I'm mad ordering low-reflective glass for the projector cabinet from the US. If I tell him I'm ordering curtain material from Stateside he'll have me put away!!

Seriously to do this kind of thing most of us need a great builder and I am lucky to have found an enthusiastic ideas-oriented guy. He says after me teaching him the tricks of the trade he may go into home theatre installation full-time (and everything I know I learnt from avsfporum, aw shucks).

I intend to have a very simple screen mount - I'm going to staple-gun it to the drywall, then cover the rest of the wall with a dark wood veneer panel, about 18mm thick and tapered around the screen edge to give an inset appearance to the screen. I'll also have a cabinet inset into the wall to hold the equipment rack, all my DVDs and ultimately a HTPC.

I'll post some pictures when it is all up and running.

Cheers,

David



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post #92 of 152 Old 03-20-2001, 08:30 AM
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Brett,
What are you using at the moment, screenwise?
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post #93 of 152 Old 03-20-2001, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Eric!

Nice to hear from you. Good to see you wandering away from the DVD/LD forum. Screen wise, I'm using a plaster wall covered with multiple coats of experimental paint, now ready for a fresh coast with a new blend. I had planned on using Ken's high gain paint on a vinyl screen. But my current main concern is finding a top quality way of deinterlacing Laserdisc output prior to scaling with an HTPC (without selling the ranch for a Faroudja) and the screen quest has slipped onto the rear burner.

My home theater is something of a work in progress. It does progress, but not in any truly linear way. Paying attention to software (movies) and sources (LD players) lately. Next will come the screen, unless a cost-effective way of doing motion compensating deinterlacing shows up unexpectedly first. Not a likely scenario.

Lately Peter (Cineramax) has once again lauded the virtues of the Torus curved screen, and I am toying once again with that idea. The cost problem seems to be that it is custom made - but isn't this a custom made screen thread? And while custom costs an arm and a leg when it is done by someone else, its the cheap way when you do it for yourself! So to be at least a little on topic, and of interest to others reading this thread, here's a link to Cineramax' latest posts about the Torus:
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/006116-3.html

If you can figure out the Torus design from those posts, please let us know. ;-)

Cheers,



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post #94 of 152 Old 03-21-2001, 02:26 AM
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Brett,
I have an arm and leg missing because I purchased an electric tab tentioned 16x9 Studiotek 130 late last year.
Because I love tweeking(I think most of us do)its pretty much taken a lot of fun away.
Screen paint is a great idea. Its great that every now and again you can experiment with a different type with not to much trouble.
Happy tweeking.
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post #95 of 152 Old 03-21-2001, 07:29 AM
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Brett,
Did you try using dTV for your LD's?
If not try it, it works very well for me with other sources.
You can fined tons of info on HTPC forum.


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post #96 of 152 Old 03-22-2001, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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True Eric, but I'm still waiting for KBK's miracle whip. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
Anyways, my own paint mixes are pretty darn good. I'm a little cautious about overstatements regarding the quality of Stewart screens. While they may be a little better than competing brands, they are plain and simply "commercial grade" screens designed first to generate profits for Mr Stewart, and only second as good screens. Home-made screens will never be saddled with a requirement to make someone else wealthy. This means that if designed and made right, they'll blow away a Stewart hands down. A report from a friend who recently purchased a Greyhawk has confirmed this apprehension.


Robert,

Yes, for now it is the best thing going, in terms of acceptable quality for a minimal investment. However, I've invested alot in the ultimate Laserdisk playback quality (reference player) and am seeking on getting as close as possible to Faroudja DCDi deinterlacing without handing over my next year's income to Yves Faroudja. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/eek.gif

To improve dTV, I ordered a modded Zoltrix card from Ken, which shipped with his paint. I'm looking forward to seeing how it improves on the video acquisition of my current TV card. Thanks for the advice though - dTV is already comparable to having a Vigatec according to those who have tested them head-on (though to be honest, it wasn't the latest version of Spatz' fine scalers).

Cheers,

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post #97 of 152 Old 03-22-2001, 06:49 PM
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Maybe the can's have broken open during shipping, and now you have a solid block of acrylic, with a computer card imbedded in it.....


As for the little better.. mine's a 'little better', in all area's except for a minimal hotspotting, but that is also dependent on usage and technique. The CRT 1.6 is WHOLLY WASHABLE TO BOOT. Beat that with a stick. It wasn't easy, I tell you...
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post #98 of 152 Old 03-22-2001, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Ken,

I just received your giftbox! I love Christmas.

All arrived in A1 perfect condition, wrapped with extreme care and caution.
When you start something you do it like a pro (or better yet, as a true amateur and a purist).

Had seen the logo on your website, but your labels are even cooler.
Now I'm going off to find a used/discounted vinyl screen of the proper dimensions, to use as a surface to spray with Ken Goo. I'm sure that it was worth the wait, solely due to my chosen slow shipping method.

Thanks to you I'll now be able to enjoy deinterlacing through your modded TV acquisition card, the very same one that along with dTV makes HTPC deinterlacing as good as with an external scaler. Nice. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

It will be great the day you have a finished product for shipping to customers, and more of a commercial presence. A friend opted for a sparkly and blotchy Stewart Greyhawk, but I'm sure he would have had a smoother more uniform screen had you made it. I'm sure that a similar differential in end-user satisfaction would be evidenced by CRT screens of your design.

I'll let you know soon how I like your highly tweaked products. Thanks.

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post #99 of 152 Old 03-23-2001, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brett:

...
This means that if designed and made right, they'll blow away a Stewart hands down. A report from a friend who recently purchased a Greyhawk has confirmed this apprehension.
...
</font>
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

...
A friend opted for a sparkly and blotchy Stewart Greyhawk, but I'm sure he would have had a smoother more uniform screen had you made it. I'm sure that a similar differential in end-user satisfaction would be evidenced by CRT screens of your design.
...
</font>
Brett, you're too harsh, but you're right to be so because posts here are usually too soft, comprehensive and maybe blindly regarding Stewart screens. Thoses posts aren't moderated enough http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Okay, I got my Grayhawk and I'm happy with it in the end, but things aren't perfect.

I will try to report my findings anytime soon, just need time... not easy these days.

Carlos
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post #100 of 152 Old 03-23-2001, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds good Carlos!

However, you'll have to post it in a different thread...

??? Unless you've repainted it with Ken's grey screen paint. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Otherwise, it doesn't fit the bill as a homemade screen.

Cheers,

Brett

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post #101 of 152 Old 03-23-2001, 06:14 PM
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What is the deal with the grey screen paint from Ken? This topic was hot about 6 months ago, but I haven't kept up with it. Is this stuff now available? How is it applied? Cost?



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post #102 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Pap,

You might want to send Ken an e-mail. You can find it on any of his posts under the member name KBK. He'll let you know what gives. I'd wager that it could have more fine tuned results for a given projector, as he custom mixes it to compensate for specific model characteristics, unlike the Greyhawk with is one shade fits all. Hope that helps?

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post #103 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 07:52 AM
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Pap,
Just do not be surprised if you do not get any replies.
Ken, offered the Gray Paint to me for testing with DILA about a month ago.
I have not received any reply to my emails or the paint since than.
btw:I offered to pay for this test paint if I end up using it.
I am still waiting ...

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post #104 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Pap,

For my CRT paint, I received it having offered to pay for it up front, whether I ended up keeping it or not - should I take a liking to it or not, it still costs KBK the same outlay of cash for the prime choice constituants of his special blends. Also, he's put a lot of thought, time and energy into designing and testing these special mixes, for which I find it only normal that he be compensated, even if it is by a token amount when all is taken into consideration.

All I said was that if I had a digital projector, his paint would be my initial reflex to use for a screen, with my own home-made blends (alot more costly to experiment oneself if you are looking for top performance, try it and you'll see). I can nonetheless understand how the wife acceptance factor might push others to buy an overpriced recognized brand named screen ready to nail to the wall.

Ken, how about a shootout one of these days? I've seen how good just my own humble blend of CRT paint gets respective to commercial grade screens, so I'm confident that with your level of competence and purist attitude, yours will deliver!

Cheers,

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post #105 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brett:
SG Morton,

As you can see you've sparked some intense interest here. Does it look like any of these?
http://www.sherwin.com/DIY/interior/...atingchart.asp

If you click on a paint bucket you'll access their product browser - it may have a reference that rings a bell.

Their website only recommends a few color schemes doesn't list all available colors - just sends you to the store locator - so I couldn't surf for luminous white. Sounds like an awfully pretty color though...

It might also come in either Flat, Satin (egg-shell), Semi-Gloss or Gloss. Does your miracle high gain paint look flat or more like satin?

Could it be this:

"Interior latex Bath Paint® features satin and semi-gloss finishes and is available in hundreds of luminous and pastel color choices from the Sherwin-Williams ColorAnswers® System."
</font>
---------
I used to work for SW. Perhaps the best paint I think would be the Everclean. This paint has an intresting "powder" like finish (in flat) that I think I will try first. The nice thing about paint is that you can tint it even after you have used some. If the white looks good, then I may experiment with adding some umber or black.

Also, I (think I) remember them actually putting Teflon particles in the paint. If not, don't shoot me, just a statement. Anyway, there is a luminous paint base in the Everclean family.

I let you know how it works for me.

Jay


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post #106 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 01:53 PM
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Ok, here is the information on the Everclean Luminous White:
EVER CLEAN FLAT Luminous White A96 W20
EVER CLEAN SATIN Luminous White A97 W40

And I was incorrect about the Teflon...sorry about that.

Jay
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post #107 of 152 Old 03-24-2001, 10:53 PM
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Well, I went to SW to get the Everclean, only problem is that they don't see it in quarts. So I made a trip to Home Depot. I picked out the just the flat Brilliant White base in Ralph Laruen ($11) and a couple of foam brushes.

With the projector on (LP340) I painted a small square area in the middle. The white was too harsh (in my opinion) so I drove back to Home Depot and picked an off white color Dover Cliffs. This time a bought a foam roller and a small paint pan. Again, with the progector on, I painted the entire "screen" with two coats.

I am very satisified with the results (it has reduced some of the rainbows I see), and will complete the "screen" with a 6" dark velvet border and maybe some side curtains.

I will post pictures of my progress when I borrow a friend's digital camera.

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post #108 of 152 Old 03-27-2001, 04:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice Job Karl!



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post #109 of 152 Old 03-27-2001, 07:41 PM
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Thanks KBK,

Care to reveal your sources? I have been quoted $40 per foot for a 72" height, with a distinct reluctance to ship a mere 12ft length all the way to Australia. That works out only about 50 times more expensive than buying the 54" stuff locally.

To add insult to injury I only need the extra height for 4:3 viewing - if I have to spend US$1000 I'll probably buy a Panamorph rather than a new screen. So long as I don't mind my TV transmissions being wide and flat I'll be okay.

Alternatively a HTPC and some scaling software would do the trick for TV transmissions without any loss of resolution.

Perhaps I am wrong in always finding a better use for $1000 than a "mere" screen, but I don't think so!

David
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post #110 of 152 Old 03-27-2001, 09:22 PM
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Looking for large runs of high grade vinyl is a bit of a trick.

I know of a few places I can buy it, perforated, or non-perforated, but it clocks in at $4.15 a square foot. 80" height, and as long as I wish it to be. I can get it in a 'welded' (probably using ultrasonic binding methods) format, for screens up to 100 feet or more. This is a 12 guage, matte white finished custom made screen material. I wanted to get some from a manufacturer, but they quoted me a 5000lb minimum order. If I wanted the 80" stuff instead, the costs approximately triple, over that of the 60" stuff. Reliable manufacture is a bit of a headache, as the manufacturer knows the entire run must be faultless, due to the nature of the useage of the product. No flaws allowed, period.

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[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 04-24-2001).]

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post #111 of 152 Old 03-28-2001, 05:40 AM
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The company that sells this stuff (for pro-industrial use) is out of the province of Quebec, in Canada.

They manufacture all of the IMAX screens. I wanted a sample of a manufacturer's product, and they referred me to these guys.
The manufacturer -of the vinyl I am looking at- had no other samples other than the small swatch they sent me. I was looking at getting a bunch as a supply for you folks when you buy screen paint, and then I have a quality vinyl to reccommend, and to sell you. The perforated stuff they supply is probably too improperly perforated for home screens. It was designed for maximum theatre IMAX set-ups, so the perforation size will definitely be off for almost all other use. Get a sample before you try and use this stuff for home theater.


*********
Try not to irritate these folks with bizzare little questions. They are NOT your HT helping hand, they just manufacture and sell screen material. Keep it simple and clean, and they will continue to supply a smaller market.
*********


I have to buy at the same place to get a sample of the vinyl product. That's their street price, I understand. And, that is in Canadian dollars.

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[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 03-28-2001).]

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post #112 of 152 Old 03-30-2001, 04:07 PM
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Well Brett? have you 'blowed your screen up Reeel Good' yet? have you tried 'duking it out' with that raw paint stock yet? Distilled water... mixed for a very long time may work best.

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post #113 of 152 Old 04-16-2001, 08:10 PM
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Attention Australian AVS Forum Readers

Yippee! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif My search is over.

While lurking in Lincraft at the Warringah Mall today I noticed they has
vinyl 3-ply curtain lining in (wait for it...huge drum roll please) 240cm lengths. That means a 425cm screen is now a real possibility!

Cost was A$27 per metre (US$13 pm), compared with A$10 per metre for the 140cm length.

Assume the same material is available at any Lincraft store.
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post #114 of 152 Old 04-17-2001, 05:12 PM
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Ken,
Are you referring to StainPRO?
What size did you get? I got 5x12 and it is 56" wide not 60"
Did you try other sizes?
btw: it looks like it has a slight pink tint to it when compared to blackout material from Hancock's.

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post #115 of 152 Old 04-17-2001, 05:54 PM
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Welcome, the spaniard

1. What was the conclusion on the best fabric for an lcd projector
2. If it was blackout fabric - which way around - vinyl or fabric
3. Should it be painted - if so, What colour?
4. What was the best colour felt surround - black or grey?
5. Was velvet better than felt or is there no difference?

My recommendations would be:
1. Curtain blackout (for simplicity and ease of handling)
2. Depends on projector brightness and the room etc. Try both.
3. Not necessary unless you are a real experimentor/fanatic. I am nervous about my paining ability (getting a smooth finish etc.)
4,5. I haven't tried velvet or felt - my wall is painted a dark shade (black cherry) which meets wifely approval as well as cutting down on reflected light leakage.
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post #116 of 152 Old 04-17-2001, 09:13 PM
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I bought one of the painter's tarps from Home Depot here in Canada. It appears to be curtian blackout, sourced out of Montreal, Quebec (at least that which is available in Canada).

It is obviously sourced out of one of the many textile suppliers in the Montreal area. Montreal is the main port town for the entire St. Lawrence Seaway. The locks begin there, I believe. So, consequently, there are alot of 'port' oriented businesses there, sorta a throwback to older times. One of these, of course, is the textile industry.

It is the full size, high grade 'curtian blackout' that has been searched for, for quite some time here on the forum.

read the Pakaging on the Tarp you purchase! See if it is orignated out of Montreal, Quebec! If it is.. it's the same curtian blackout I found. It has a nice tight weave,and a clean, acrylic based 'rubber like' backing, that is 'fairly' immune to breakage from stretching.

It CAN be painted (on the rubbery surface) and It WILL bond EXACTLY right with my paint product,as the two have the same base design characteristics... Except mine is oriented towards maximum screen qualities.

So, there it is.

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[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 04-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 04-19-2001).]

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post #117 of 152 Old 04-18-2001, 02:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi The Spaniard!

I've been away from the Screen forum lately, busy with other things.
Glad you've found some ideas of interest here. Here's my shot at answering your questions:


1. What was the conclusion on the best fabric for an lcd projector?

- Some have had success with bedsheets of an appropriate shade of grey for their projector brightness and color balance. Others have prefered blackout material or painted walls.

Since your question was "the best" I would imagine that it is probably a fabric or vinyl screen painted with KBK's specially mixed grey screen paint custom blended purposely for your very model and brand of projector. Alan Gouger was the first to test it in his showroom at AV Science in Rochester, and thought it was very good. KBK can give you further details directly, as to whether his Grey screen paint is still available for purchase. He shipped my CRT paint to France so there is no problem sending it to Europe.


2. If it was blackout fabric - which way around - vinyl or fabric?

I've heard of better results usually for the fabric side. However, if you are painting it, you may get a smoother screen on the vinyl side although it would require spraying a diluted paint mix on it laying horizontally on the ground to avoid streaking during drying. The fabric side would better absorb the paint and make it less troublesome to apply the paint, with different resulting finish.


3. Should it be painted - if so, What colour?

KBK has experiemented extensively with different pigment bases used in creating a final grey with an appropriate base for digital projectors and their respective color balances. Your alternative would be to get many different samples of commercial grey paint or swatches of grey material to test them with fairly homogenous projected images in hopes of ascertaining which ones have the best characteristics. This is a time consuming and in the end costly process. KBK has been through it all, and improved on his findings by special formulations. You can go your own, and it might be more rewarding in other ways than financially or time-wise. More power to you. Who knows, you may stumble upon a miracle material for digital projectors?


4. What was the best colour felt surround - black or grey?

Black is better than grey as creating contrast and making colors pop out. This is true mostly for CRT projection where black levels are very dark. However, it might not hold so true for digital projectors, especially those with poor black levels: too dard a framing of the image might emphasize the greyness of the black in the picture and reinforce this flaw?

Hopefully others here with digital projectors and framed screens can expound? TIA.

5. Was velvet better than felt or is there no difference?

CINERAMAX, formerly PANORAMAX and before then HOMEIMAX has said elsewhere if I recall correctly that Black Velvet does a better job than felt in "absorbing" light. He even recommended thick pile velvet which virtually TRAPS LIGHT. However, black felt is much better than other more reflective black fabrics, with black satin to be avoided if possible due to its reflective nature.


This was just my best effort, not in any way an authoritative response. Others here, please diverge in opinion if required: I use a CRT projector and must guess at some aspects of the problem.

Cheers,

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Brett

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post #118 of 152 Old 04-18-2001, 03:01 AM
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This thread is awesome! I just read it all and my eyes are blurry! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Based on suggestions, I think I'll try to go with the blackout fabric on a wood frame covered in black velvet. I'm using a DILA G11 with a 15' throw distance. I'll post observations when done.

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post #119 of 152 Old 04-19-2001, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by raugustyn:
Ken,
Are you referring to StainPRO?
What size did you get? I got 5x12 and it is 56" wide not 60"
Did you try other sizes?
btw: it looks like it has a slight pink tint to it when compared to blackout material from Hancock's.

</font>
Yeah, I bought the five footer as well, and yes, it is actually the maximum standard roll width of 54" (Anything other than that is custom, in the textile industry). I tried looking at the others, but they wouldn't want me ripping open the packaging in the store... I think I will anyway. I might go back there today. I *think* they are all the same stuff.

I am making up a DLP screen today (second coating, after first had dried a bit) This is for a older 2-chip Helios Vidikron unit. They guy getting it can't wait for it to arrive....
I'm going to strech it over a wood frame for him. Any other suugestions for a frame? that will hold, be light and look clean? it is going to sit onhis wall, all by itself. no borders, ort edging, etc. I might 'blackout' an oversized screen edging for him by painting it flat black, but then the handling is a bit difficult.

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post #120 of 152 Old 04-20-2001, 12:37 PM
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Ken,

I have this drop cloth as well. Last night I went back to home depot and bought two pieces of very lightweight 1x2x8 wood for 98cents each. These were very straight with no bends in them at all. I also bought three pieces of the 1x3x6 for something like $1.68 each. I used four of the metal angle connectors for 58cents each to join everything together. For a grand total of $10.00 I built a very lightweight 96"x54" 16x9 frame that I can lift into place myself.

The frame looks something like this:

http://images.freepichosting.com/NickB/17681-Large.jpg

I used the 6 foot long 1x3's on each end with one in the middle for support.
The two 8 foot long 1x2's run across the top and bottom.
I used an angle connector on each corner.

I did not cut down the 6 foot long 1x3's to 54 inches as I wanted the extra few inches above and below the screen so I could screw it into the wall from the front. I then used strips of black felt around the frame which both covered up the visible ends and masked the screen.

I can take some pics with my digital camera this weekend if you would like to see and I can also post the SKU's of the items I used.

BTW: I sent you an email last week about your screen paint. I was wondering how many 54x96" screens I can make out of the material you sent me. I was hoping to make one 1.6 gain white screen and then add some lamp black to the remainder and make a pseudo grey screen. Is there enough to do this?

Thanks,
NickB



[This message has been edited by NickB (edited 04-20-2001).]
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