Draper M1300 screen questions - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 08-29-2001, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

My first screen was a Vutec 1.5 gain opaque screen, and with my Marquee 8000, I thought the picture looked great. Then I recently bought a Marquee 8500LC with 9" tubes (making it virtually a Marquee 9500LC), and at the same time I decided to go to a larger screen. I found a great deal on a 100" wide Draper M1300, but so far I am not very happy with the quality, and I wonder what I should do.

The screen is not opaque, like my old Vutec, and right now it is hanging in front of a stairway. I saw what I believe to be "hotspotting", but never having experienced it before, I am not sure. There is an area that is noticably brighter than the rest of the screen, and as I move around the room, the bright area seems to move. I thought I could improve things by hanging black velvet behind it (to try to make it opaque), but the problem remains. Here are my questions:

1. First of all, am I seeing "hotspotting", and is this common with Draper M1300 screens?

2. What can I do to fix it?

3. Can I paint the surface of the screen and/or the back in order to make it opaque?

4. Are the Vutec 1.5 gain screens known as being much better than the Drapers? A friend of mine had a Draper M1300, and he bought my Vutec. He says that his picture looks much better with the Vutec also.

5. If all this fails, what screen should I buy to do my Marquee 9" projector justice? Are the Stewarts that much better? Or should I buy another Vutec in the larger size?

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post #2 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 06:35 AM
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I'm running an ECP 4101 with a 80x45 M1300 screen.

I don't get any hotspotting to speak of, however, your 9" unit has a lot more light output than my 7". If you have AVIA there are hotspot test patterns. If I used these to determine my hotspotting I get maybe 10% or so. Impossible for me to see during a regular movie scene and I'm picky.

A hot spot will be a circular area in the exact center of the screen. With a floor mounted projector the hot spot will be lower on the screen (but still centered left to right) and a ceiling mount will be slightly high.

You didn't mention the frame-type you have. My Draper is a cineperm frame. I have what I have termed "tension triangles" in my screen. The worst one on my screen is about 1/3 from the left side and is 4 inches wide or so. This is a section of the screen that does not lie perfectly "flat" causing the light to be reflected differently. From one angle, it appears as a bright band in the image, from another it is a (slightly) darker area.

This shows up for me more often in really bright scenes (bugs life). I was able to capture this with my Kodak DC290 and sent the pictures off to Bob Hadsell (sp?) of Draper. He represented Draper very well, but was forced to admit in the end that this is a limitation of the cineperm screen.

The cineperm screen is assembled by hand. So the button snaps are installed on the aluminum frame by hand, and the border on the screen is stiched by machine, but hand guided. The button snaps on the border are also installed by hand. As you can see there are a number of places where minor errors can creep in.

One thing I'm going to eventually try out is taking the screen material off the frame and mounting it 'upside down' - this is possible since the snaps are symmetrical. I'm hoping that the defects will be less noticible with the different orientation.

I've seen a Draper M1300 tab tensioned screen. Its perfectly flat and the image is great.

Roo
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Andrew, your information is most helpful.

Quote:
A hot spot will be a circular area in the exact center of the screen. With a floor mounted projector the hot spot will be lower on the screen (but still centered left to right) and a ceiling mount will be slightly high.
The hot spot on my screen is quite noticable in terms of extra brightness. The spot is fairly centered (though not exactly) when viewing the screen from directly in front. The spot moves somewhat to the side (the same side) as I walk from side to side in my room. Right now my projector is temporarily mounted one foot off the floor, on some milk crates, until I am finished revamping my theater, and the hot spot is low on the screen.

I have the Cineperm frame also, which insures that even when the screen is wall mounted, the screen material will not actually touch the wall, but will use the frame as a spacer. For the life of me, I can not understand why they would not make the frame black aluminum and mount the screen material on the back side. Also, why is the screen translucent? Shouldn't all screens be made opaque? Right now, even with a layer of black velvet in back of the screen, I can clearly see the projected image from the back, through both the velvet and the screen material. For what purpose would a screen be made translucent? And do you think that making it opaque, by painting the back side of the screen, would help?


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post #4 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 12:00 PM
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Bob,

What you are seeing does sound exactly like hotspotting. I don't know what you can do to fix it, it is a property of the screen surface. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif You could try and paint the back black, although you might try some coats of white and then black. That would reflect more of the light back to you (even through the screen) and it might reduce your hotspot a little.

A Stewart 1.3 gain will look a lot better, I've seen them before and they have none of the hotspotting you seem to be seeing.

Regards,

Kam Fung
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Sorel:

The spot moves somewhat to the side (the same side) as I walk from side to side in my room.
I also agree that this sounds like a hot spot. It is an artifact of the light from the projector being 'brighter' in the center than at the edges of the screen. My 'tension triangles' don't move around, they appear as imperfections in the screen surface.

Quote:

Right now my projector is temporarily mounted one foot off the floor, on some milk crates,
The Draper screens are intended for ceiling mounted use, they are reflective, not retro-reflective. Try standing on a chair to put your head approximately where it would be if the projector was ceiling mounted and you were sitting on a couch. The "hot spot" may be exaggerated because more light is reflected away from you towards the ceiling with the projector on the floor.

Quote:

Also, why is the screen translucent? Shouldn't all screens be made opaque?
Beats me. I don't know about painting it black. I'd just try to double up on the velvet. My wall is painted essentially kodak gray behind the screen and I don't seem to have any problems with light bounce back.

Ask Draper from some samples of the M1300 and M2500 material. It might be possible you have the higher gain M2500 material.

Roo
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post #6 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys, you have been a great help.

Quote:
Ask Draper from some samples of the M1300 and M2500 material. It might be possible you have the higher gain M2500 material.
Darn, I never thought of that! I just assumed that when I purchased the screen that it was indeed what they said it was. When I had my Marquee 8000 and the Vutec 1.5 gain screen, my contrast and brightness were both set to around 45. With the new projector, the contrast is set to 35 and the brightness around 25, but I just thought it was because the tubes were newly remanufactured and had more output. If this screen is actually an M2500, that would explain everything. I will contact Draper right away and ask for samples. Thanks, Roo, you may have hit this one right on the head!



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post #7 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Low:

Ask Draper from some samples of the M1300 and M2500 material. It might be possible you have the higher gain M2500 material.

Roo[/b]
Thanks for asking a good question, Roo. It does sound as if Bob may have M2500 material. Bob, if you would care to contact me, I would be glad to send out a sample of the M1300 and M2500 for comparison.

Also, we do offer our M1300 material with dark backing. It is a feature that is special ordered at a premium.



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DRAPER, Inc.

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post #8 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, Bob, that would be great! I'll send you an email right away to get the samples. If this is my problem, and it certainly sounds as if we have found it, I am glad to know that you offer a black backed version, as I feel that it would be of great benefit in my situation. Since you will probably be in a position to know the answer, just why are screens made to be translucent? Why aren't they all made opaque, as that would seem to work in every installation, or is there some disadvantage to opaque screens? Anyway, thanks for dropping in and helping out. I really appreciate it!

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[This message has been edited by Bob Sorel (edited 08-30-2001).]
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 05:47 PM
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Bob,

I have samples of both the M1300 and M2500. Look up close, is your screen surface perfectly smooth to the eye or does it have a visible texture to it. My M1300 sample is smooth and the M2500 is slightly shiny with a bit of a texture that you can almost barely feel but can be seen up close.

BTW,

How did you ever fit a bigger screen down there???

Dave
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post #10 of 18 Old 08-30-2001, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi David,

My screen has a slightly silver look to it, and it has a fine, pebbled texture, so I am even more conviced that it is a M2500 now.

Quote:
How did you ever fit a bigger screen down there???
Hehe, I got rid of my pool table and decided to dedicate the room to home theater and music. I am in the process of totally revamping the room right now, and as soon as I have it completed, you are invited to come on over and audition the new projector (not to mention my new sound system http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif ). The image quality is a significant step up from my Marquee 8000, with resolution and detail like nothing else I have ever seen. I think you will like it http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif



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post #11 of 18 Old 08-31-2001, 07:59 AM
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One thing to note is that Draper does use more than one manufacturer to create their screen material. So there can be slight varations in the actual M1300 material depending on which batch you get.

My sample of M1300 matched the M1300 tab tensioned screen I saw, but does not match my M1300 screen. The "screen properties" of the material are identical from what I can tell -- but under close inspection the two are not 100% identical in texture.

I'd like to take this opportunity to state that while I'm very critical of my particular Draper screen -- almost all of my guests are unable to see any defects. For many applications the low cost cineperm screen is a great screen. If you are going to insist on "perfection" be prepared to spend a little more and get a better frame / screen like the clarion, or higher.

Draper has provided excellent customer service to me.

Roo
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post #12 of 18 Old 09-05-2001, 08:38 AM
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Hi Bob,

Have you got the real M1300 fabric? How's the comparison between M1300 and Vutec Britewhite 1.5? I'm considering either one for my LT150.

Best Regards,


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post #13 of 18 Old 09-05-2001, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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The M1300 sample has not arrived yet, but I am quite confident that the screen material I am using is M2500. I will be sure to post a follow up as soon as I know for sure. If I am indeed using M2500 material, I would not recommend it for use with a high quality CRT projector in a well light controlled room. The Vutec 1.5 gain brite white screen is a much better choice, but I have been led to believe that the M1300 will be even a little better. I am sure that the M2500 serves a good purpose for other applications (low output projectors, bright rooms, etc.), but lower gain screens seem to be the choice for optimum color fidelity.

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post #14 of 18 Old 09-06-2001, 08:29 AM
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Thanks Bob,

Looking forward to read your follow-up comparison and comment.

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post #15 of 18 Old 09-06-2001, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok guys, I have to admit that I am now somewhat confused. I got the M1300 sample from Bob today and I taped it on the surface of what I believed to be an M2500 screen that I am currently using. The M1300 material looks MUCH better than the other one, and now I don't even know if the screen I have is M2500 for sure.

Imagine looking through a window to the outside world through a dirty window, one that is evenly dirty all over. You might not notice that it is dirty if it is consistent enough and the dirt is evenly distributed. Then you take out a bottle of Windex and clean a spot on the window, and all of a sudden you realize just how dirty the rest of the window is. Well this is what it was like when I attached the sample of M1300 material in front of my screen. The M1300 is brighter, cleaner, and has much more vivid and accurate color rendition, and I consider it a HUGE improvement over my current screen.

The reason I say that I am confused is, if my screen is M2500, shouldn't it be brighter than the M1300, since it is a higher gain? It actually appears "gray" next to the M1300 sample, and definitely less bright. Does anyone have any idea what this screen might actually be, as I don't believe it is M2500?

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post #16 of 18 Old 09-07-2001, 04:57 AM
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Bob,
What you do have is M2500 screen material. The M2500 was designed not only as a higher gain material, but is also slightly grey for enhancement of color contrast. For lower output projectors or those that do not reproduce black very well, it has been an excellent screen. (Draper was one of the first to recognize the need for contrast enhancement.)

I think you have discovered the proper screen material to use.

If you need any further assistance, as always, please let me know.


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DRAPER, Inc.

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post #17 of 18 Old 09-17-2001, 08:08 PM
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You got the answer to your question before I noticed the thread, but it was interesting to me anyway.

I currently am using an M1300 surface and have been happy with it, but went through several surface "sheets" sent to me by Draper to get one that didn't have streaks or other imperfections in numerous places. I have the screen without the exposed snaps ("Clarion" maybe?) I first started with an M2500 (~2 years ago), on the advice of a local dealer (who didn't have a clue). It had serious hot-spotting, plus the streaks problem. I threw it away after getting tired of storing it - It was really weak.

The M1300 surface I had to buy to rectify the situation has been quite satisfactory, however, with very few quirks.

Originally, I had a Sony D50 CRT, and replaced it with a D-ila. The screen was/is still a good match.

My question would be to anyone having tried any Rear Projection flexible surface from Draper (or Stewart) specifically with a D-ila ?

I have had a "projection" room behind my existing screen wall, and am now ready to move the projector (and its heat and noise) off of my ceiling, and into this projection room, If I can get some good feedback on what type of screen surface would be appropriate.

Am looking for around the 8.5 to 9' wide 16x9 size range, totally controlled lighting.

Any experience with the RP route with digital projectors ??

Thanks - Chris
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post #18 of 18 Old 10-03-2001, 03:51 AM
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Well Bob,

Did you ever get you Draper 2500 switched with a Draper 1300?
If you have your paperwork I don't see why they can't send you the correct screen.
If you ordered a 1300 that's what they should send you.

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