Getting a smooth painted surface... - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 18 Old 10-08-2001, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jcmccorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Madison, AL, USA
Posts: 3,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13

Hi gents. This weekend I tried the Mr. Wiggles approach to building a screen. I started by building a frame (80"x46") and mounted tile-board to it.

I used 3 coats of primer and 3 coats of the Behr Ultra White Eggshell. All were mixed with Floetrol.

I mounted the screen up last night and the gain seemed identical to my Dalite Model B (I pulled it down over half of the new screen to compare). It looks pretty good and I'm almost a happy camper...

The problem is the texture. The paint is pretty smooth on the surface but not smooth enough. When I look at the lines in a crosshatch pattern, the texture on the paint scatters light around the line causing a halo. I can also see little shadows in an image for certain colors (yellow in particular). The rollers definitely left a slight bumpy texture.

I'm going to try again and use a sprayer instead of a roller. I'm not sure if I should just try sanding the surface I already have to make it smoother and then spray on top of it or just strip the primer and paint off my board and start over totally. Anybody have advise? Anybody use a sprayer? (this is a comercial-grade sprayer, not one of those Wagner thingies...)

Cary
jcmccorm is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 Old 10-08-2001, 11:42 AM
Member
 
AfroCreame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Gonzales, TX USA
Posts: 58
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I haven't tried building my own screen yet, but if you want the smoothest possible finish, then a sprayer would be the best way. Brushes, and even rollers made for "smooth" surfaces still produce a small bump effect. A spray will be alot better with textures and overall paint consistancy. Good luck.
AfroCreame is offline  
post #3 of 18 Old 10-09-2001, 12:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
deronmoped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, Ca.
Posts: 3,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sand it with 180 grit using a rubber block (the type they use on cars) to hold the sandpaper, till it is smooth. Dust it off then use a tack rag. Set up your spray gun, pratice on some samples then spray it in the right conditions, no sun, wind ect. It's an art to spray and get a good uniform finish so read up on sparying. Be prepared to go through this a few times to get it right.

Deron

------------------
Surfs Up!

CRT Videophile
deronmoped is offline  
post #4 of 18 Old 10-09-2001, 09:19 AM
Member
 
davidylyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Bensalem, PA, USA
Posts: 113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had very good luck using a foam roller from Home Depot. The roller I used has only about 3/8" of foam and produced a very smooth finish.

My $.02.


------------------
Roberts Family Theater

davidylyl
davidylyl is offline  
post #5 of 18 Old 10-09-2001, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jcmccorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Madison, AL, USA
Posts: 3,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13

Thanks Deron! That's exactly what I'll do. I may start off with a lighter grit of sandpaper though and see what that does (180 seems kind of rough).

Last night my wife had an idea or two. First she tried pouring paint on the screen and using a brush. This definitely got rid of the bumpiness from the roller but added it's own problems in the form of deep brush streaks. Then she had the idea of using a squeegie. This actually worked pretty good. The texture from the initial roller-applied coats is still there, but the squeegie filled in the valleys more and the severity of the texture was tamed down. She used a spray bottle of water and continually "misted" the surface while working the squeegie. When she was finished, there were no lines at all from the edge of the squeegie - perfectly uniform.

However, I think we both realized though that getting back to a smooth surface and then spraying would be the best way to do it. I'll post back with results...

Cary
jcmccorm is offline  
post #6 of 18 Old 10-09-2001, 12:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
deronmoped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: San Diego, Ca.
Posts: 3,483
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you decide to go the squeegie route build yourself a squeegie a little wider then the screen so you can cover the surface in one pass, I did this to get the most uniform finish with my silver paint. Spraying did not work on the silver paint because it would cause tiger stripes in the finish.

One other thing I will try is they make this blanket material that is made up of very fine hairs. I think this might leave a better finish then the squeegie.

Deron

------------------
Surfs Up!

CRT Videophile
deronmoped is offline  
post #7 of 18 Old 10-11-2001, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
jcmccorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Madison, AL, USA
Posts: 3,382
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13

The squeegie wins! After my wife did the squeegie technique and we let it dry, the texture is plenty smooth enough for viewing. If I had to do it again, I start with spray, but the squeegie sure worked.

Cary
jcmccorm is offline  
post #8 of 18 Old 10-11-2001, 06:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
James W. Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Birch Bay/Whatcom county, WA
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by davidylyl:
I had very good luck using a foam roller from Home Depot. The roller I used has only about 3/8" of foam and produced a very smooth finish.

My $.02.


I had good luck as well and do not see the need for a smoother finish than what a foam roller can produce, in fact it is much smoother than most of Da-lites backed materials.



------------------
James' DIY Speakers
James W. Johnson is offline  
post #9 of 18 Old 10-11-2001, 09:18 PM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
My paints, when the gain is lowered.. work very well with a foam roller. This was it's intial application guideline. rollable. must be rollable. So, it is. It will just work slightly better if sprayed, like any paint. However, it really doesnt fit the paint category very well. It's more like high grade screen surface, in a can.

------------------
goosystems

Ken Hotte
kbk@cyberfreak.dhs.org
kbk@goosystems.com

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
post #10 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 12:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 28
goosystems products "rollable" ?? I admit I haven't looked at what you have been posting about your product development in quite awhile, Ken, because everything....at least that I had seen up until today, seemed to indicate they could only be applied by spraying. This was not an option for me inside my home.

"Rollable" introduces a whole new interest for probably lots of folks, and I know I'll be watching the goosystems posts again to see how people are doing with your exotic concoctions. Good luck with them!
RonF is offline  
post #11 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 01:11 AM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The problem Ron, is this:

I wanted to perfect both. BUT... under the best of circumstances, it is important to have a understanding of paint to get any of this product to work.

People aren't used to having to work with product this expensive. Not because it wants to be expensive, but because it merely is.

A liter of this paint (with the liter of primer) can put a very big smile on a person's face. it can do two coats, and it can do approximately 36 ft. One layer of base coat, and two adjusted layers of top. I made sure that if I could handle the paint... that it would be a choice in my mind where I would not consider any other option, even if the other screen was cheap.

If you have thinned paint mixtures before, you will be fine.

One thing to remember. The gain breakpoint in the paint is fairly sharp when you are mixing it.

PERFECT mixing is fully mandatory. No exceptions.

Aeration of the mix is not to be done, when mixing. If this is done, it must sit overnight possibly. Definitely recommended. Especially if rolling.

The digital projector guys are going to love this stuff.

I have to start mailing product tomorrow.

There is stock to guarantee (and if I get around to it) 72 hour turnaround (with notification of payment), if postal situations allow. The stock, actually, would be very difficult for you to use up, as capacity is outside of demand, by a long shot.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
post #12 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 08:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Does no aeration mean one would have to pour the correct mixtures into a can, put a lid on it and then take to a paint store to have them put in a shaker for the mixing?

Any idea how long before you'll start to release some of the specifically targeted digital projector mixes? I'm guessing we will see some grays that have gain of predetermined level. If, for a wall, though, and not needing to be flexible for continued rolling up and down, would there be something of the sophisticated gain / ambient light rejection effect which the Grayhawk uses that would make "Goo" better than simply picking a color at Home Depot and using....say eggshell rather than flat?
RonF is offline  
post #13 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 11:31 AM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
It is so far beyond the quality level, in paint quality, and image fidelity of any house paint, so as to make any comparison laughable.

Yes to all your questions. No matter what, flexibility of the paint after application will ALWAYS be there. it is inherent in the design. basically, I can very likely, with experimentation, better or equal any screen surface you have ever seen, or used. it is just that we have to start somewhere. product must get out, and then..take it from there.

The people who will get the most out of this product,is the dealers and installers who aren't afraid of a bit of work.

Here's the quandary. People want the product. It is reasonable in pricing and/or costs. Dealers don't want the product. it is too cheap to reap real profits from,and there is the backside of maintenance to it's usage. So, the website has to take the pressure of them,at the very least, insofar as explaining it's handling and usage parameters.

You have to remember,that a ordered screen is a decent profit,and exists as a checkmark on a dealer's invoice. A painted screen exists as a thing that must be made. In some cases the dealers will want the product. they will want it for the perennial money saving type of customer. Many dealers don't really have the skill or desire to get into it's application.

Installers on the other hand, depending on their personal abilities,and technical depth, will either love it, or hate it. If they have no technical depth, they will not want anything but a finished product. They wish this for the simplicity. they punch a button on your wallet,and money pops out. With the paint, they punch the button, and a drop comes out (in comparison to the profits of a $1000 screen solution that is simple to sell and install).

If they are a true custom installer, they will LOVE the paint,as it allows them to better serve the customer, with exact meeting of their needs, on any occasion, place or time frame. To a custom installer THIS sort of thing is money. Totally custom work.

This is the crew I am trying to reach. Ones who have the skill to do the work properly, and reap the accentuated rewards of such work. Any screen, anywhere, any type, anytime. No limitations. no delivery schedules. It can be done on a moment's notice.

The level of costs to get to a Stewart, Vutec, Dalite, etc quality of screen are less than the costs of one of those higher grade screens. Once the learning curve is completed (which can be largely eliminated with pre-determined kits) anything can be created, if I give you access to the right product.

Projection prices are rapidly dropping, and so must the screen solutions drop to (in comparison) a similar costing. As well, the quality level must increase. It must drop in complexity, insofar as the usage and application of this sort of technology.

This product is the genesis of that solution.

And this is the only place, or spot in any way, shape, or form to find or realize that solution, due to the simple fact that the solution is very complex and difficult to create, and put into a container.. and sell it as a simple solution. The level of physics involved is quite staggering when you get down to the real meat of the understandings.

As for aeration, what I mean is the inclusion of tiny air bubbles in the mixture, caused from cavitating the blade on a mixing device when stirring the mixtures. This is NOT to be done. If this happens, in any way, shape or form, it must sit at least overnight to get the bubbles out. They will be microbubbles,and be very hard to get tot he surface. And rest assured,the complexity and type of mixture virtually guarantees that their will be bubbles in the mixture after vigorous mixing. what I mean as well, is the mixture must miss no small bits on the side of the container, for instance, when adding the primer to it to change gain characteristics. it must be fully,and properly mixed. This is NOT housepaint.

this is a video screen,which you stare at in an intense fashion, on a daily basis. Not the unrealized wall paint in your house. tiny flaws WILL be realized and found out. So, mix properly,and apply well. There are no shortcuts with this product.


Simplicity of application of the product is definitely there, but attention must be paid to the act of application, and the act of preparation employed to get to that point of application of the product. You don't have to pay that much attention to the application of wall paint, but then again, that's just your wall.

A good painter really pays attention to what he/she is doing. The same thing applies here.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
post #14 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 02:50 PM
Member
 
Jimmer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Omaha, NE USA
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ken, I'm interested/intrigued by your product...question:

I see that a lot of folks attempt to 'make a screen'. Is there anything wrong with just rolling your paint onto a wall surface, provided it's very smooth?

My project will involve a permanently mounted screen over a fireplace. I'd just as soon make the the screen a painted area of the wall above it, if that doesn't present too many problems...

> Jim <
Email me
Jimmer2 is offline  
post #15 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 03:30 PM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
There is no problem whatsoever in using the product on a wall, as long as it is flat. Only you will be the arbiter of whether or not it is acceptably flat as a surface for being a screen. I would highly suggest getting the screen primer as well, to be sure the colorimetry of the original surface to be painted on is as correct as possible. The paint dries slightly translucent,and takes about 2-3 weeks to get to being fully dried. it can be easily washed with a rag and some water at that point. and it is not that heat sensitive. so, if it is dirtied by use of a fireplace, it may be washable as far as soot goes. we shall see. If the projector is not ceiling mounted, it is suggested to (like any other screen would be) tilt the screen to keep the viewer in the main viewing 'cone', or area.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
post #16 of 18 Old 10-17-2001, 03:53 PM
Member
 
Jimmer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Omaha, NE USA
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the quick reply, Ken - must've caught you online... :-)

I intend to 'mask off' the screen size I want on the wall, then primer and finally paint on the surface. 'Washable' is nice, but it's a gas fireplace - no soot to worry about... :-)

The projector will be ceiling mounted, but I figure with a potential screen gain of upwards of 1.4 and the limited viewing area, I shouldn't have a problem with viewers being out of the 'cone'.

Thanks again - expect an order from me when I get to the building stage.

> Jim <
Email me
Jimmer2 is offline  
post #17 of 18 Old 10-18-2001, 08:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sunny SoCal
Posts: 1,680
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 28
[quote]Originally posted by KBK
[b]As for aeration, what I mean is the inclusion of tiny air bubbles in the mixture, caused from cavitating the blade on a mixing device when stirring the mixtures. This is NOT to be done. If this happens, in any way, shape or form, it must sit at least overnight to get the bubbles out. They will be microbubbles,and be very hard to get tot he surface. And rest assured,the complexity and type of mixture virtually guarantees that their will be bubbles in the mixture after vigorous mixing. what I mean as well, is the mixture must miss no small bits on the side of the container, for instance, when adding the primer to it to change gain characteristics. it must be fully,and properly mixed. This is NOT housepaint.

So what is the correct mixing procedure when the paint arrives? Do you mix it good before shipping? How long does a mix last..... where you can just take a stick and run it around a couple of times & be ready to go? Or would taking a "stick" to it be unexcusable etiquette with goosystems products?
RonF is offline  
post #18 of 18 Old 10-19-2001, 12:24 PM
KBK
AVS Special Member
 
KBK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: The Wilds Of Canada
Posts: 7,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
You can use a mixing machine to mixit up. ie, one of the paint store mixers will do fine. But it must sit overnight to get the micro-bubbles out. Other than that, there is no problem. Use a spatula (plastic bakers type) to get the paint off of the side of the container, if you are going to do it by hand. Use a variable speed cordless drill, and a small mixer blade like you can buy at the local paint or hardware store.

The thinness of the mixture you come up with, for application purposes will dictate the amount of time that the paint has to sit to ge the bubbles out. I will be a bit more comprehensive, but I have to go to work at this moment. This is all standard paint useage guidelines.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
KBK is offline  
Closed Thread Screens

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off