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post #1 of 20 Old 09-30-2015, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Conference room upgrades

I have a project this year at my job to upgrade one of our conference rooms AV equipment. Currently we have a 144in drop screen on one end of the room and the projector mounted on the opposite side against the back wall. I will have to post back room dimensions as well as make/model of equipment since I can't remember them. All the equipment was installed back in 2007 (yes it is old, very old). We have a vaulted ceiling with a strip of track lighting, a lot of fluorescent lighting, and natural light from the windows and doors. Currently the image is and always was bad due to all the lighting and the screen used, and projector used. I guess it was great in 2007.

I was looking at the SI zero edge black diamond screen, but have been reading about the graininess from the artifacts which I want to eliminate or minimize as much as possible. I have read people say not to get SI but to go with the Seymour-Screen Excellence Ambient-Visionaire screen. I will post photos of the room but I have French doors with two additional Windows. One window is facing south the other, plus the door are facing west. The office is in south florida so we get a decent amount of light in the afternoon. Can anyone give dome feedback on those two or any others. Budget I would say around 3-5k for the screen. Looking for 16:9 4K capable screen or at a minimum 1080p . Also need a great 1080p/4K projector which I am not sure on. Epson? Sony? What other great commercial quality is out there. How many lumens are recommended with alr screens? Is 4000 lumens enough or should I go higher or lower? I am trying to give my users who are all designers that vibrant bright picture quality of a flat panel tv but in a 120+ screen and projector that can be used with the lights on and not washout the images and color if possible. We want that wow factor which will most likely be replicated in 3-4 more conference rooms in the company.

Any help is greatly appreciated, please feel free to ask questions if something doesn't make sense.
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post #2 of 20 Old 10-01-2015, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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my conference room is 24x19.
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post #3 of 20 Old 10-04-2015, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, is there anyone who wishes to provide any sort of feedback about the screens? I see that 4K projectors are still in there infancy so will look for a good 1080p projector for the conference room above. I am interested to hear from people, professional installers What are other people using these days for conference rooms.

Thanks
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post #4 of 20 Old 10-05-2015, 05:05 AM
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I saw your thread the other day and I’m surprised no one replied. I will offer a little help in a general way if I can.

Any front projection is subject to three things in the search for excellent picture quality and they are the screen, projector and room. They are also only as good as the weakest link in this triangle of three. In your case without a doubt the room is the weak link. The three have to be in balance and there are some things you can do with the other two that will compensate for the weak link but you can only go so far.

Lumens only counteract a bright room insomuch as producing bright white and bright colors can be produced. A projector does not send out black it makes blacks and dark colors by sending out nothing or close to nothing. What you see as black will be the same as what you see the screen as without the projector on. The difference between that brightness of the screen without light on it and projected white is the CR you will get. Buying an expensive projector with a high CR capability to produce CR wont translate to higher CR in the image unless you have a very well light controlled room. What works in preserving CR in the image is a darker gray screen and or a screen that can direct ambient light away from the viewers and projected light to the viewer. In the case of a dark screen it will suck up some percentage of the projected light and an equal percentage of the ambient light. Having higher lumens hitting the screen will in this case brighten the image back up and reduce some of the effect of the ambient. If most of your ambient is coming from locations other than the viewer then a screen with angular gain properties combined with a darker color can work by sending a greater amount of light back to the viewer thru a smaller viewing cone and the stray light coming from off axis will skip off the screen and hopefully be absorbed by something dark on the other side of the room.

The best place you could spend your money to do the most for PQ would be without a doubt be in the room and the room lighting. The overhead lights are wide dispersion the windows and door are unshaded and un-tinted. Things like the spot lights are more what you want and one spot aimed maybe at each seated location. Then you need a very bright business projector and a dark neutral gray screen with some slight angular gain abilities.

You didn’t really say what type of content you will be showing except the people viewing will be designers. I’m assuming it won’t all be bright power-point shows on a white background. If there will be photos or computer generated images, or even movie like content or animation you will benefit a lot from really planning this out and educating yourself on how this all works together. A conference room and a sports bar are really not all that much different in how front projection is handled.

Get a piece of gray paper and stick it to the screen you have now and report back how it looks. Also give us the specs you mentioned on the screen and projector you have now.

Bud
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post #5 of 20 Old 10-05-2015, 05:16 AM
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I wouldn't use a Black Diamond or the Ambient Visionaire in a conference room. It is just too hard when trying to read something like text with the artifacts these create. A more mild gray type screen would be good, something like the Stewart Cima with Tiburon 2 material. For a conference room I would look at a 16:10 screen as that is common aspect ratio in the computer world. You might get by with the screen you currently have if you change some of the lighting and use more direct lighting and control the light coming in from the windows. You need blinds, drapes, shades, etc. to control the light from the windows or you need an uber projector to overcome it. You can have a fair amount of lighting in a room as long as it is not hitting the screen. Something like track or can lights could give a lot of working light and limit the light hitting the screen. Whether you change the screen or not it is a good idea to change the lighting. I would also consider going a little smaller for the screen as it doesn't look like you are using the whole screen. Smaller images are brighter.


For projectors you won't find much in 4K for the commercial world unless you have a BIG budget, I would look at a 1920x1200 (WUXGA) resolution for computer. The more lumens the better? Does the projector have to be mounted where it currently sits? What is the distance from the screen to the lens of the projector? What is the budget? Don't go by the specs of the projector for lumens, they all rate their lumens in its brightest mode but it is often not a very good looking mode to use the projector in. Amongst a given manufacturer the one with higher lumens will be brighter.


Go to screen innovations website on their screen wizard page it is under tools. Download one of the recommended apps for measuring ambient light on your smart phone. Then plug in the numbers in the wizard. I would probably look at a 16:10 123" screen but take measurements of your room and current screen. You can go bigger but it doesn't seem necessary if you are not filling the screen or the people sitting at that end of the table will block it. Smaller will be brighter and less expensive but still be large enough to have a WOW factor. Then look at how many lumens you need to use something like their Maestro Gray material. Play with the numbers for the ambient light, screen size and lumens and you will see how important it is to control ambient light. Their calculator will off course make the Black Diamond screens look like the best choice but any screen no matter who the manufacturer hasn't overcome physics. Whenever you redirect light you will get some artifacts, for certain situations I don't find them bothersome but something like reading text I find it is more distracting than watching video. You can get screen samples from the manufacturers but be warned it is difficult to get a good idea of how these samples will look with the full screen. Hot spotting and other factors are tough to determine on small samples. So something might look like a good choice on a sample and not be as good with a full size screen.


http://www.screeninnovations.com/tools/screen-wizard/
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post #6 of 20 Old 12-31-2015, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry Bud16415, and Ellebob for not responding back. Had to squeak out another year using the existing equipment, and try to research the best way to tackle this project for 2016!

So if the ALR are not the right option then, would say an 11,000 lumens projector from DP, along with re lighting the room work? Or is that to bright? Still want to do away with the motorized screen and go fixed, any suggestions?

Yes I know very expensive....what are the best alternatives?
digitalprojection.com/dp-projectors/highlite-laser/



One problem we have now is its hard to read the text on the screens sometimes (granted it could be the person who put the presentation together) and that is with a resolution of ether 1024x768 or 1280x1024. Everyone complains about it. I'm getting a lot of push from people who say just put a flat panel in there, which I respond with they are too small for that size room (enter the blank stares... )

I guess I'm no closer after researching ALR's and projectors about which ones I need to pull off a excellent image that is not washed out.is the SI BD screens still the only one the reject light from the top and side?

Is there such a thing as too many lumens for a room like this? Just trying get the right pairing of projector and screen for this room.
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post #7 of 20 Old 01-01-2016, 09:16 AM
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I have experience with corporate conference room presentations. It's obvious looking at the pictures that you have light falling directly on the screen. This is the single worst thing you can have for front projection. Trying to overcome the problem caused by the poorly planned lighting without addressing the lighting is like saying you want to lose weight but you want to continue eating a whole chocolate cake every night after dinner.

Save your money on the expensive ALR screens that all produce some kind of artifacts in exchange for fighting ambient light and invest that money in new lighting that falls on the table where it's needed and not on the screen where it creates problems. All of the properly designed conference rooms I worked on had lighting near the screen that could be individually switched off, other lighting that could be dimmed and shades that could be drawn when presentations were being made.

The room doesn't have to be movie theater dark. With a properly lit room and a bright conference room projector all you need is a plain neutral grey screen that will reflect less ambient light than a white screen and produce no artifacts. Then you simply turn up the brightness on the projector to the point that the image is as bright as it would be on a white screen but with reduced reflected ambient light. It's really as simple as that.
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post #8 of 20 Old 01-01-2016, 09:29 AM
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There is no such thing as too many lumens, if something is too bright you can always use less bright modes, lamps on low power and if those are still too bright you can put a neutral density filter in front of the lens. More lumens is a problem their are solutions, but there is no overcoming not enough lumens.


That being said a DP laser with 11K lumens is probably over kill and not cheap. Controlling the lights is the biggest problem. If you can get some shades on the windows where light hits the screen and put the lights that directly affect the screen on a different switch so they can be turned off you can use a projector with a lot less lumens. 2-3000 'REAL' lumens will be fine with a gray 100-120" screen will be fine. By real I don't mean the projectors rated lumens as they are often exaggerated and only give that type of performance in modes that don't look good. Probably something that is rated for 3-5000 lumens will put you in that range as it will probably have decent looking modes in the2-3000range.


Panasonic, Sony, Epson and NEC as well as others all make models that would work. You have to find out models that fit your installation for how far the projector's lens is from the screen called the throw and where the projector needs to be placed in respect to the top of the screen called the offset. Knowing those distance and measurements I can maybe give you more specific recommendations. Here are some models that have good flexibility there may be less expensive models that have less flexibility but fit your situation. You pay ore for projectors with interchangeable lenses or have longer zoom ranges and greater amounts of lens shift.


Here are models with WUXGA(1920x1200), good zoom range and a decent amount of lens shift, some have interchangeable lenses. Most of these I bet would work.
Epson models
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...?UseCookie=yes


Sony Models
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-pr...t-projadvinst/


Panasonic models
http://business.panasonic.com/produc...edinstallation


NEC Models
http://www.necdisplay.com/category/m...dia-projectors


Now depending on throw and offset you maybe able to use a lot less expensive projector like an Epson 1985.


A fixed screen will be less expensive than a motorized screen. For instance with the Stewart Cima mentioned a 123" will be $1200-$2000 less depending on type of mounting and options over the fixed screen version. The fixed screen is about $1850 retail for a 123" screen for reference.
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post #9 of 20 Old 01-03-2016, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Addressing the lights is apart of this upgrade for the room. I have 2-3 additional conference rooms that I have to address some win less light, some with more so I am trying to create a universal setup for all so my staff can operate each room the same. We have different setups now and it's a nightmare people still after 8years don't know how to turn on the projector and computer in this conference room too me, that is a F for design, and probably and F for education of the staff.

Right now we have a Sanyo PLC-XT25 which has a Rating of 4500 lumens in that room. I guess what I am asking is ideally people want to be able to see the screen with the color depth and brightness of a flat panel, but still keep the windows and door uncovered so they can see the outdoors vs feeling like they are in a cave. I will be putting those two lights closest to the screen on a different switch and automate them so when the projector is on, they turn off automatically. Can my users get that experience and can it be done with a more lumens projector (I.e. 11000) rated, DP or from any of the links you provided, and then dial it down to the REAL lumens setting for optimal image quality? Or will blacks still suffer until I address either wide dispersion lighting or ambient lighting from outside? If you see on my photos above the current throw is roughly 20+ft (current projector mounted on back wall, with screen on opposite wall. We can move the new projector forward and over the table if that will assist with image quality. Again I am looking for a 16:9 screen ideally around 150" diagonal fixed frame. By going with 150 that would fill the wall behind the drop screen perfectly. Also want a slim bezel screen like the SI black Diamond screen (backlight not needed). Does Stewart or some other manufacturer offer that in a non ALR screen?


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Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
There is no such thing as too many lumens, if something is too bright you can always use less bright modes, lamps on low power and if those are still too bright you can put a neutral density filter in front of the lens. More lumens is a problem their are solutions, but there is no overcoming not enough lumens.


That being said a DP laser with 11K lumens is probably over kill and not cheap. Controlling the lights is the biggest problem. If you can get some shades on the windows where light hits the screen and put the lights that directly affect the screen on a different switch so they can be turned off you can use a projector with a lot less lumens. 2-3000 'REAL' lumens will be fine with a gray 100-120" screen will be fine. By real I don't mean the projectors rated lumens as they are often exaggerated and only give that type of performance in modes that don't look good. Probably something that is rated for 3-5000 lumens will put you in that range as it will probably have decent looking modes in the2-3000range.


Panasonic, Sony, Epson and NEC as well as others all make models that would work. You have to find out models that fit your installation for how far the projector's lens is from the screen called the throw and where the projector needs to be placed in respect to the top of the screen called the offset. Knowing those distance and measurements I can maybe give you more specific recommendations. Here are some models that have good flexibility there may be less expensive models that have less flexibility but fit your situation. You pay ore for projectors with interchangeable lenses or have longer zoom ranges and greater amounts of lens shift.


Here are models with WUXGA(1920x1200), good zoom range and a decent amount of lens shift, some have interchangeable lenses. Most of these I bet would work.
Epson models
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/j...?UseCookie=yes


Sony Models
https://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-pr...t-projadvinst/


Panasonic models
http://business.panasonic.com/produc...edinstallation


NEC Models
http://www.necdisplay.com/category/m...dia-projectors


Now depending on throw and offset you maybe able to use a lot less expensive projector like an Epson 1985.


A fixed screen will be less expensive than a motorized screen. For instance with the Stewart Cima mentioned a 123" will be $1200-$2000 less depending on type of mounting and options over the fixed screen version. The fixed screen is about $1850 retail for a 123" screen for reference.
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post #10 of 20 Old 01-03-2016, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Addressing the lights is apart of this upgrade for the room. I have 2-3 additional conference rooms that I have to address some win less light, some with more so I am trying to create a universal setup for all so my staff can operate each room the same. We have different setups now and it's a nightmare. After 8 years people still don't know how to turn on the projector and computer in this conference room. Chalk up an F for design, and probably an F for education of the staff.

Right now we have a Sanyo PLC-XT25 which has a Rating of 4500 lumens in that room. I guess what I am asking is ideally people want to be able to see the screen with the color depth and brightness of a flat panel, but still keep the windows and door uncovered so they can see the outdoors vs feeling like they are in a cave. I will be putting those two lights closest to the screen on a different switch and automate them so when the projector is on, they turn off automatically. Can my users get that experience and can it be done with a more lumens projector (I.e. 11000) rated, DP or from any of the links you provided, and then dial it down to the REAL lumens setting for optimal image quality? Or will blacks still suffer until I address either wide dispersion lighting or ambient lighting from outside? If you see on my photos above the current throw is roughly 20+ft (current projector mounted on back wall, with screen on opposite wall. We can move the new projector forward and over the table if that will assist with image quality. Again I am looking for a 16:9 screen ideally around 150" diagonal fixed frame. By going with 150 that would fill the wall behind the drop screen perfectly. Also want a slim bezel screen like the SI black Diamond screen (backlight not needed). Does Stewart or some other manufacturer offer that in a non ALR screen?
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post #11 of 20 Old 01-03-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rbiteng View Post
Also want a slim bezel screen like the SI black Diamond screen (backlight not needed). Does Stewart or some other manufacturer offer that in a non ALR screen?
Have you considered a borderless screen wrap around designed frame? Stewart and a few other screen manufacturers make these with your choice of screen material.
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/app...-commercial-av
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Last edited by Don Stewart; 01-03-2016 at 01:21 PM.
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post #12 of 20 Old 01-03-2016, 03:22 PM
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For the room you have in the pictures, the current 144" screen is too big. I would make sure the picture isn't blocked by anyone and everyone has a good view. 150" is a good size screen and more lumens will be needed. You can get borderless or slim bezel screen by many manufactures and companies like Stewart will custom size them for you. I was recommending the Cima line by Stewart which is a very good value but its largest 16:9 screen is 135" and 16:10 is 137". If the budget is there they have other models that go larger and can come in different styles. With commercial projectors I would still consider a 16:10 screen as that matches the resolution of many of these projectors, 16:9 will fit on a 16:10 with a small amount of screen showing.


You don't have to block all the windows but ones that affect the picture on the screen, just like the lights. If you are trying to compete with sunlight then the more lumens the better. It also sounds like you need a decent control system that is intuitive and easy to use for your users. There are many brands that can control the projector, lights, shades, equipment, etc. It doesn't matter the brand but the quality of programming is more important. I would talk to several companies and look over some of their programming examples.
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post #13 of 20 Old 01-04-2016, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
I have experience with corporate conference room presentations. It's obvious looking at the pictures that you have light falling directly on the screen. This is the single worst thing you can have for front projection. Trying to overcome the problem caused by the poorly planned lighting without addressing the lighting is like saying you want to lose weight but you want to continue eating a whole chocolate cake every night after dinner.

Save your money on the expensive ALR screens that all produce some kind of artifacts in exchange for fighting ambient light and invest that money in new lighting that falls on the table where it's needed and not on the screen where it creates problems. All of the properly designed conference rooms I worked on had lighting near the screen that could be individually switched off, other lighting that could be dimmed and shades that could be drawn when presentations were being made.

The room doesn't have to be movie theater dark. With a properly lit room and a bright conference room projector all you need is a plain neutral grey screen that will reflect less ambient light than a white screen and produce no artifacts. Then you simply turn up the brightness on the projector to the point that the image is as bright as it would be on a white screen but with reduced reflected ambient light. It's really as simple as that.


^^^^ What he said.^^^^

Bud
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post #14 of 20 Old 01-05-2016, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Stewart View Post
Have you considered a borderless screen wrap around designed frame? Stewart and a few other screen manufacturers make these with your choice of screen material.
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/app...-commercial-av
I have not but will look into them more. I'm not familiar with these, what is the benefit to using the wraparound besides the zero edge/bezel look?

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For the room you have in the pictures, the current 144" screen is too big. I would make sure the picture isn't blocked by anyone and everyone has a good view. 150" is a good size screen and more lumens will be needed. You can get borderless or slim bezel screen by many manufactures and companies like Stewart will custom size them for you. I was recommending the Cima line by Stewart which is a very good value but its largest 16:9 screen is 135" and 16:10 is 137". If the budget is there they have other models that go larger and can come in different styles. With commercial projectors I would still consider a 16:10 screen as that matches the resolution of many of these projectors, 16:9 will fit on a 16:10 with a small amount of screen showing.


You don't have to block all the windows but ones that affect the picture on the screen, just like the lights. If you are trying to compete with sunlight then the more lumens the better. It also sounds like you need a decent control system that is intuitive and easy to use for your users. There are many brands that can control the projector, lights, shades, equipment, etc. It doesn't matter the brand but the quality of programming is more important. I would talk to several companies and look over some of their programming examples.
I will be going with a 16:10 projector for sure. We currently have Crestron control equipment in thatroom. Will have to get the models of all the extra equipment. for programming I agree it is. Very important. We will be starting from scratch n the programming. We were thinking of using iPad mini's as the remotes to control the rooms. We have Airwatch MDM solution so we can control and lock the devices so people can't tamper with them and so they don't grow legs. Does Crestron make a good app that can be used to automate and control everything in the room? Or is there a better solution for an App?
Also, my firm is all about collaborating with other designers and so I am looking for a great solution besides gotomeetings, webex, etc to provide that experience. I originally found Oblong Mezzanine solution that looked interesting but the price tag is a staggering $150-$200k+ per 6 monitor solution and that does not include the cost of the TV's. I came across Crestron Airmedia which sounded similar but wanted to get other people's feedback if they have used/implemented it and how they liked it?
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post #15 of 20 Old 01-06-2016, 11:08 AM
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I have not but will look into them more. I'm not familiar with these, what is the benefit to using the wraparound besides the zero edge/bezel look?
The reason I brought it up is you stated you were looking for a slim bezel. The wrap around frame is for those who prefer an architectural design look with the image floating in space. The only other benefit is you can get a few more inches of image width and height in an allotted space. The downside is your PJ set up must be dead on with no wiggle room for over scan.

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http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/
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post #16 of 20 Old 01-06-2016, 10:10 PM
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Crestron is a custom programmed solution, and the Crestron needs to be programmed for iDevices or Droid devices or both if you wish. If you want to control it with a tablet or phone, discuss it with whoever is doing the programming, we do this type of thing all the time. For a conference room I would suggest a good touch screen controller with help screens that can walk techno-idiots through some of the connection process if they need to physically connect any devices. I consider using a tablet or phone a secondary controller and while they are very nice, it opens up too many points of failure for something I would want bullet proof for years. For instance if an IT guy changes some of the network settings you may no longer be able to access the control system or some one does an update on their tablet or phone and now that app doesn't work correctly. I would always recommend a dedicated controller with being able to control it with a tablet or phone secondary.
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post #17 of 20 Old 01-07-2016, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
Crestron is a custom programmed solution, and the Crestron needs to be programmed for iDevices or Droid devices or both if you wish. If you want to control it with a tablet or phone, discuss it with whoever is doing the programming, we do this type of thing all the time. For a conference room I would suggest a good touch screen controller with help screens that can walk techno-idiots through some of the connection process if they need to physically connect any devices. I consider using a tablet or phone a secondary controller and while they are very nice, it opens up too many points of failure for something I would want bullet proof for years. For instance if an IT guy changes some of the network settings you may no longer be able to access the control system or some one does an update on their tablet or phone and now that app doesn't work correctly. I would always recommend a dedicated controller with being able to control it with a tablet or phone secondary.

Here is the other equipment we have controlling that room. After reviewing it i believe most of it is not worth keeping anymore and starting fresh since it all is 9 years old.....

What is the Crestron Fusion? does that the newer version of the CP2E? i read it can control all rooms configured with it from a pc. does the CP2E or whatever that new model number is also control llighting and shades?
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Rbiteng is offline  
post #18 of 20 Old 01-07-2016, 11:56 AM
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The company I work for now doesn't use Crestron, but I have programmed Crestron in the past. Even though your Crestron stuff is older, it would still work fine it just need programming for new equipment. I don't think the CP2E can be programmed to use tablets and phones for control. I may be wrong, I am just not sure if they updated it for that and I am not up on their latest products. Other than that it would still work fine for controlling your devices.


Your video matrix would need to be changed to a good matrix/ video processor for current standards. The mic system should still be fine. The audio is a bit odd using a consumer receiver for audio instead of a 70 volt system. But, I am sure it would still work fine.
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post #19 of 20 Old 01-07-2016, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellebob View Post
The company I work for now doesn't use Crestron, but I have programmed Crestron in the past. Even though your Crestron stuff is older, it would still work fine it just need programming for new equipment. I don't think the CP2E can be programmed to use tablets and phones for control. I may be wrong, I am just not sure if they updated it for that and I am not up on their latest products. Other than that it would still work fine for controlling your devices.


Your video matrix would need to be changed to a good matrix/ video processor for current standards. The mic system should still be fine. The audio is a bit odd using a consumer receiver for audio instead of a 70 volt system. But, I am sure it would still work fine.
you stated you don't use Crestron, so what other options are good that you have worked with besides Crestron. Yes this was not my project. the previous directory hired a professional to put all of this in. Not sure why the consumer AV receiver was chosen. but it does work. we just have to fix the ground loop noise issue in that room.
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post #20 of 20 Old 01-07-2016, 08:47 PM
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Crestron is probably tops but other control companies would be AMX, Elan, Control 4, Savant, RTI, URC and many others. Any of them are more than capable for this type of system and all of them can use tablets/phones if needed. If you need to hire a programmer or a company to do this the brand of equipment is not important but the quality of programming and design are bigger factors. If you are looking for a DIY solution iRule with the various Global Cache devices would probably be the best.
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