The High-Gain/Exotic Screen Review - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 201 Old 03-18-2003, 07:28 PM
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Cannibalization can happen in MINUTES. It is very easy. I know some very money conscious, but non-technical people (I mean very non-technical!) who have done exactly that.

Ken Hotte

"Never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream." -- Malcolm Muggeridge.
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post #92 of 201 Old 03-18-2003, 07:39 PM
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right on Ken, now we're talkin'. Can you tell me more about it? Is it detachable or does it need to be cut, etc...?
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post #93 of 201 Old 03-19-2003, 12:51 AM
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Mike U: Once you add the doohickey to the Panasonic, suddenly it costs as much as the Sony.

Darinp: Interesting thoughts on the Sony. If I am understanding you correctly, you are suggesting that the Sony on a shelf mount with the Silverstar (or similar) might produce a very bright powerful image without even being in high-power lamp mode.

The question is how much ambient light can this setup tolerate and still be watchable, say for sports in the afternoon? Or TV in the evening with a small lamp on?

Tryg: Are you suggesting that the Silverstar is so magical that you can ceiling mount and still get high gain from the seated position?

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #94 of 201 Old 03-19-2003, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by rogo

Tryg: Are you suggesting that the Silverstar is so magical that you can ceiling mount and still get high gain from the seated position?

Mark

It's angular reflective so yes. For it's high gain it does a great job of diffusion. I need to see a full screen for full review.

Stand by soldier.
I'm about to unleash the "DIY Triple Threat" tm.

1. White Wonder
2. Firehawk Killer
3. Super Silver Star

Operation DIY SCREEN FREEDOM is on the front lines...
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post #95 of 201 Old 03-19-2003, 09:39 PM
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Standing by, Gen. Tommy "Tryg" Franks.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #96 of 201 Old 03-20-2003, 12:19 PM
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When people are making a silverstag/pearlescent screen, what are they using for the medium......matte, eggshell, satin, semi-gloss or gloss?

How many coats...... and are people using Floetrol?

Also, what percentage of pearlescent are they using for optimal results? I have a 1400 lumen LCD projector with a 16ft throw. It will be ceiling mounted and I intend to use a 16:9 format with 115" diagional.

I know that Tryg is going to cover this in his forthcoming review, but can anyone give me an idea about how much better the digital grey goo is over the silverstag solution?

Ken, if I went the goo route, how much goo would I need to make a 16:9, 115" diagonal screen? I'll be rolling it.....do I use Floetrol with this too?

Thanks!

Simon
An aussie/us/ and brit citizen now living back in Oz - lived in MI for 6 years.
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post #97 of 201 Old 03-20-2003, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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New Review should be out this Friday morning (tomorrow).

I need to get back to my real life
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post #98 of 201 Old 03-20-2003, 03:44 PM
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that's the sweetest thing I've heard all week. WTG Tryg. I can't wait to ask you questions all weekend!!!!



~Rob
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post #99 of 201 Old 04-05-2003, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Silver Star is angular reflective

If anyone out there has one I'd love to hear your thoughts on its performance
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post #100 of 201 Old 04-05-2003, 09:48 PM
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I'm thinking of getting one. I am hoping to call Vutec on Monday to talk to them and then figure out how to order one.

It's going to be small, though.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #101 of 201 Old 04-17-2003, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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hold on to your seats...I have something in the works
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post #102 of 201 Old 04-17-2003, 03:18 PM
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You are the cruel tease, Tryg-o-nometry man.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #103 of 201 Old 05-02-2003, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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tease yes. I would think people building Home Theaters would be fond of a little drama....

I will let you in on a little secret as I will be starting to prepare my new review next week. The next review may be the one many of you veterans have been waiting for.

It will include only professionally manufacted FULL screens and will demonstrate White, Grey and yes Silver.
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post #104 of 201 Old 05-02-2003, 09:13 PM
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Oooooh.... I will await this almost as much as I am awaiting the release of the oft-delayed Samsung 530 phone from Verizon.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #105 of 201 Old 05-03-2003, 07:42 PM
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what's the time frame tryg?
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post #106 of 201 Old 05-04-2003, 12:52 PM
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I use a 30 something year old screen now with the AE300 (I have no idea about gain, is there any way to find out? i don't notice a big diff at different angles).

My problem is that the local store here has a matte white and the 2.5 gain glass beaded, which wasn't among the best in your review here. So I'm wondering how far off from center until the 2.5 gain one is at the brightness levels of a regular matte white? And how far off until it is actually worse?

If you really don't think I should get the 2.5gain screen, I'd also like to hear it, so that I can start looking somewhere else (If its possible to find any other screens locally......).
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post #107 of 201 Old 05-24-2003, 04:07 PM
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This thread was the prequel!

Joe -----

The harder it is to tell the difference, the less difference it makes.

 

"I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude." -- Thomas Jefferson, translated from Latin

 

Also translated as "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" 

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post #108 of 201 Old 12-19-2003, 05:31 AM
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Thanks Tryg for the tremendous screen reviews!

I am going to order the HiPower 106" to match up with my new AE500.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #109 of 201 Old 02-24-2004, 11:43 PM
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Holy Mackeral. That is the dangdest thing I have ever seen. It's awe-inspiring.
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post #110 of 201 Old 06-15-2004, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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post #111 of 201 Old 06-27-2004, 07:53 PM
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Your screen reviews.
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post #112 of 201 Old 06-30-2004, 01:00 AM
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Just as an fyi to page 5 where Tryg and other were rummaging around wondering how well a Silverstar works as a angular reflectiing screen with a ceiling mounted projector.

I have a Sanyo Z2 mounted 13 feet away from a 122" Silverstar after comparing with my current DIY formula (Superplex) screen. The lens is horizontal with the top of the screen, and with the Z2's lens shift I have an excellent picture quality image that you would expect from a Silverstar.

The angle from the lens to the seated view is about 30 degrees which seems to be a great downfiriing reflection angle for the Silverstar.

I have some screen shots posted here if anyone is interested, but will have to wait for my 3rd post to include the screen shots (AVSforum spammer prevention stuff).

I will reply to this thread below with the URL's to my own screenshots.

Thanks again Tryg for the excellent reviews, it was the Silverstar vs. the Firehawk and Draper high power review that made me decide to purchase the Silverstar for the gain and the fairly wide angle dispersion compared to the Highpower.

I couldn't agree more as a PQ enthusiast with your review, and couldn't disagree more with Ken's review at ProjectorCentral. Naturally since he did not see fit to include screenshots with his review I have to wonder what he must have seen to make such statements about the Silverstar.

In fact it appears that Silver reflective surfaces are where it's at as I think that in North America most of the projector installs are trending towards ceiling mount of the my colleagues in Seattle, WA who are coming into the projection community from RPTV. Silver reflective materials are a foundation of both CMRA/Mississippi Man's Superplex/Lightfusion DIY formula, and the Silverstar itself.

I think Silverstar as a angular reflective screen is the standard if you are ceiling mounted. With the Draper Highpower glass beaded and directly reflection back is the better solution for table top or seating heigth level projectors.

-shanec
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post #113 of 201 Old 06-30-2004, 01:01 AM
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Here are my screenshots for the above post. Strictly amateur, but I tried to be reasonably consistent with the distance, height, and angle.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...&cat=500&page=

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...&cat=500&page=

http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphot...sort=1&cat=500
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post #114 of 201 Old 06-30-2004, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice screen shots.

Is there even a difference between the Goo and Superplex? I never built one because it seamed like too much work for same results as paint.

Also, are you fastening those materials to your Silverstar?
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post #115 of 201 Old 06-30-2004, 02:37 PM
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The Goo Systems Digital Grey Lite is much darker normally that the DIY Superplex formula.

The Goo screenshots you are seeing in my screen shots have a Behr Silver Metallic backing to crank up it's gain. Without the Silver Metallic backing it is clearly darker than the Superplex, and is subtly so with a gain inducing Silver Metallic bottom coat.

Those are 1/8" 12"x18" sheets of plexiglass that are at rest on the screen at a 5 degree lean, that subtle of an angle did not impact the visual quality when I compared them to screen shots of my directly holding the sample directly against the screen . Never fear, I did not glue or attach them to the Silverstar... =)

Sorry this is not a "pure" Digital Goo comparison. I found unacceptably dark enough that I gave the Goo a boost since many following the DIY Superplex formula wondered about putting a Silver backing to increase Goo's gain. It works. And that is a Goo sample that has cured for a month in case any were curious.

I really hope Ken@Goo tries a silver backing test himself. A Behr Silver metallic backing does increase the gain nicely without impacting the top coat.

What I am really trying to show is obviously the Silverstar use of silver colored substrate is a excellent approach, it even works with other brands.. ;-)
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post #116 of 201 Old 08-02-2004, 04:55 PM
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Bump for newer members.

To see all three screen type reviews by Tryg click the links in his signature.

White, Grey, or Silver - A Review!
A Screen Showcase & DIY Review
The High-Gain/Exotic Screen Review
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post #117 of 201 Old 08-03-2004, 08:53 AM
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I'm not sure I agree with Tyrg's general opinions on screens. He is always pimping high gain materials.

He admits he is no black level freek - and that is fine by me - but some of these screens are focused on that issue. If his reviews don't discuss relative black levels then why review the screens?

Firehawk? Retro Grey? These screens are designed specifically for boosting black levels - and they do an amazing job at a pretty small penalty on whites / colors.

Trust me - I've tried Studiotech 130, Dalite HiPower, Carada Brilliant white etc. and on my BenQ 8700 they wash out the blacks to grey like nobody's business. Heck even the CinemaVision (regular one) looks virtually identical to white paint when projected.

The real question is - why on earth does Don Stewart continue to send Tyrg screens?

Be advised - if its high gain and its NOT silver, your asking for grey instead of black - at least on most DLP's.
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post #118 of 201 Old 08-03-2004, 09:38 AM
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Todd, black level isn't much of an issue on LARGE (>106") screens. The Benq 8700, table mounted and projected onto a 120" Da-Lite High Power screen looks very good. Blacks look black (well ok a rather dark grey - almost black). Maybe your Benq 8700 needs the brightness adjusted? I have the DLP Brightness in the service menu set to -4 and Brightness in the user menu set to 26, and it looks very good. On a 65" screen it's not bad - greyish, but an ND filter makes it look extremely good. Hell, I don't even use an ND filter most of the time, except for dark movies.
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post #119 of 201 Old 08-03-2004, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Todd

1. Don sends screens because everytime anyone puts his name or company in print it sells product. Advertising 101. Plus Don is a great guy, and sells great products. Potential customers should know this. Current customers already do.

2. I dont pimp high gain. I pimp enjoyable foot lamberts. Anything between 20-50 is generally enjoyable to most. These new wimpy DLPs that only put out 300 lumens NEED a high gain screen to maintain its size and brightness. People rave about Plasmas and they are in the 70+ foot lambert arena

3. Black is not a function of the screen. Black is the absence of light. You either need to eliminate ambient light and/or get a higher contrast projector. Relative black level? it's relative...usually to your viewing environment. Painting your walls black to block any secondary reflections to your screen will do more for lowering your black level than ANY screen.

I'm not a black level freak. I simply will not compromise a good image to go one notch lower in absolute black level(it's an endless fight). After reviewing 100's of materials I've always preferred to higher gain ones. Why? Brightness.

It has many benefits!

1. Higher brightness images simply have more realistic colors, whites and detail. (try wearing your sunglasses around inside your house for a while)

2. Higher gain screens offer higher brightness and thus your eyes adjust thus increasing your perceived contrast. Make your whites whiter and those greys look even blacker. Perceived increase in contrast! More punch more exciting image, and more accurate colors and whites. Makes me happy

Try these illusions and see if you agree

http://www.colorcube.com/illusions/scindctn.htm

http://www.cut-the-knot.org/Curricul...Contrast.shtml

If you dont agree with this you can try to make your screen even darker and see how you like that. That should be a lot of fun... shoot for about .5 gain. then try .2 gain.
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post #120 of 201 Old 08-03-2004, 10:26 AM
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maxleung:
I'm running 110". Blacks are grey. My brightness in different settings ranges from 13 to 18. As I raise contrast I generally drop brightness. 26 and blacks? I can't imagine that - especially on a high power. What do your black bars look like? I havent been in the service menu. What is DLP Brightness entail?

Tryg:
I agree, getting darker blacks without sacrifice is an endless fight - but the Firehawk has done something different. Its the only Dark Silver on the market. Its hard to catagorize - it easily has the darkest blacks with least sacrifice - compared to Carada grey, DaLite HCCV or Stewart Greyhawk for example. Is it grey or is it silver? Is it the screen color or the coating boosting colors and brightness? How did they get that ambient light rejection? Its an amazing product (in my mind) and you've yet to touch on really any of its attributes. That was my point.

If I were to join you on the high gain crusade it would have to be with silver products to get good blacks - but even these have issues. In really bright scenes I've seen the Vutec SilverStar and Dalite Silver Matte show themselves - the white suddenly transitions to Silver and you see the actual screen. For Example - if you have Fellowship of the Ring - when Frodo passes out after the Rivendell river rises - the scene goes brilliant white and the screen just plain shows up . Maybe its just my room and poor ambient light rejection on the screen. Not sure.

Anyway, Its ALL a compromise. On one hand you give up blacks and on the other colors and whites. Some screens are simply better than others for what the *intend* to do. Thats the kind of review I wish you'd do, as opposed to considering them agianst each other - instead of from the Whites and Colors all others be damned faction - officially WACOBDF .

I know, go write my own review right? You do write valuable stuff with a wide range of coverage - so thanks for that.
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